Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parliament

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SilvrSurfr
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by SilvrSurfr »

vic777 wrote:Daniel, you seem to be a little late to the discussion. You are way behind the power curve in this debate. The fact is, FlyPast60 is about to become a reality. The Government of Canada says so. What we have to do is find a way to implement the NWO for the betterment of all and not get hosed by AC and the ACPA Elite. Forget George Bush. Get with the program.
Actually it looks to me like he is very much with the program. He is clearly seeing through the smoke and mirrors to the root of the issue, GREED!!!! But hey, who cares right....this all about human rights isn't it. What ever man...

Surfr
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777longhaul
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by 777longhaul »

Greed, why yes it is that also, and it is no more, or no less than your greed, or anyone else. One wants to stay, one wants you to leave, so they can have what you have. Greed, runs both ways, and it is no different regardless of where you sit in this issue.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Raymond Hall »

TheStig wrote:You have to ask yourself, if this is such a foregone conclusion, why hasn't it happened alrady? Is it because judges keep messing up, misinterpreting the intent of the law, and making the "wrong" judgements, or is it because you're only being given the information that your leadership wants you to have to further their cause? I'll admit, ACPA and AC don't say much about this, but would you rather be uninformed, misinformed, or both? Do the groups supporters still think they're coming back to the line? Do they still believe they are getting a big payout for this injustice? How much influence do they believe they have with Legislators in Ottawa?
I take responsibility for every post that I have made, here and on the Fly Past 60 web site. Anyone who takes issue with anything that I say or post is more than welcome to telephone me to discuss the alleged inaccuracies or to correct my errors. My telephone number is readily available (Google me). I assure you, if the post is inaccurate, it will be corrected immediately.

My posts (and the posts of others here who have been sounding this alarm for half a decade) are admittedly biased. As I understand it, that is why this Forum exists—for the healthy exchange of opinion, like yours. Some of my earlier posts here express more opinion that the more recent ones, which I have genuinely tried to keep to fact rather than opinion.

Regarding the above excerpt from your post, in case you have not been following the recent developments, may I suggest that you might wish to put the following date in your daybook: December 14, 2012.

That is one year from next Wednesday, the day that Canada’s Governor General will give Royal Assent to the Bill that repeals the mandatory retirement exemption. The exemption repeal will come into force one year to the day after Royal Assent is given. The legislation that contains the repeal, Bill C-13, will clear the final Parliamentary hurdle this coming Tuesday by receiving Third Reading and passage in the Senate. It will most likely be given Royal Assent the next day.

This means that any Air Canada pilot who turns 60 on or after December 1, 2012, will no longer be required to retire at age 60.

Why hasn’t it happened already, you ask? It just did.

[Edited to provide actual date of Third Reading in the Senate]
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Last edited by Raymond Hall on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
accumulous
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by accumulous »

By the way.....still waiting for the acpa official, IVR "majority of the acpa pilots" survey, that shows that the majority of all the pilots (total amount of pilots represented by acpa)wanted to fight this issue in the first place. Wish someone would post the audited results here, so we can all read it.
In absolute terms it amounted to about 40 percent of the membership voting to take this thing to the wire.

Job 1, touted at around 700 pilots over 5 years. That was often quoted as the general target statistic in retirements short term.

Worst case scenario it should have been possible to delete 700 chairs up the ladder before it all hit the fan and the music stopped.

News flash, Parliament just stopped the orchestra about 4-500 seniority numbers short of the Master Plan, and 200 are queued up in court. So that's out the window. Thinking was never our strong suit. Now we'll see how 'accurate' the 'survey' was.

Zero representation, zero foresight, zero planning. The roughly 40 percent in absolute numbers was ‘parlayed’ in the press from an underwhelming minority into an ‘overwhelming majority’, democratically of course, with all the usual semantics about how the vote was representative in traditional terms. You forgot to vote? Tough. It doesn’t matter how you slice it, in absolute numbers, a minority is dictating the fiscal fortune of everybody else, but hey, that's democracy.

The huge glaring error that was made right out of the gate however, was assuming that a vote can replace individual rights, pretty much the cornerstone of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and when that error was transmitted through every major news publication in the country on Day 1, it likely caught the notice of a lot of very important people.

Of course what it really did was legitimize the earmarking of carte blanche war cash as required from the other 60 percent who either didn’t vote or who were against it. This thing is potentially not possible on the backs of 40 percent.

If it goes against, which is where the signs are all pointing if you have followed the litigation heading into the big downtown Courtrooms, it could effectively wipe out any percentage increase in any new collective agreement, by the time the Executive calls. The only squabbling over the liability you would assume would come from who is really liable – everybody? The 60 percent who didn’t vote for it? Pilots not yet on the property at the time the scheme was drafted? Returning pilots? To get it spread over 3000 pilots likely seemed do-able at the time until you start reading through the volumes of decisions and where they’ve landed on the ledger. 40 percent gets the other 60 percent to fund it? Softens the blow if you can make it stick. If you can’t, you’ve perhaps got yourself a very large mess.
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Morry Bund
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Morry Bund »

TheStig wrote:You have to ask yourself, if this is such a foregone conclusion, why hasn't it happened alrady? Is it because judges keep messing up, misinterpreting the intent of the law, and making the "wrong" judgements?
Well, duh… Yes!

Every single decision issued by the Tribunal on this issue so far has been overturned by the Federal Court, save for the ones that haven’t got to the Federal Court yet, including the two most recent ones. Don’t worry. They won’t be exceptions to the string of previous "mess-ups".

For example, in the July decision, the Tribunal found that mandatory retirement based on the collective agreement was sufficient to be classed as a BFOR. Too bad the Tribunal didn’t bother reading the Supreme Court of Canada precedent that expressly prohibits that finding before issuing its decision. Off to court we go.

In the August decision, after waiting almost two years after the hearing ended until releasing its decision, the Tribunal “forgot” that it had previously deferred the constitutional issue, to be decided after the completion of the hearing regarding the issue of the normal age of retirement. It dismissed the complaints, as a result. Wrong. All four parties, ACPA, Air Canada, the CHRC and the pilots had to tell the Tribunal that it messed up and that it needed to re-convene the hearing to finish the case. Four months later, we are still waiting for it to start that process.

Why hasn’t it happened already? “Is it because judges keep messing up, misinterpreting the intent of the law, and making the "wrong" judgements…?” Yes. That is not the only reason, but that is certainly one of the reasons.
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Rockie
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Rockie »

Some Air Canada pilots are still grasping at straws believing passage of this bill won't effect them until the BFOR issue is settled, which in their minds will still be age 60. And they are attaching unwarranted importance to Raymond Hall's use of terms like "in my view" when imparting certain information as proof that he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Under some circumstances a "never say die" attitude is admirable, but when that attitude harms them by refusing to adapt to changing circumstances it is anything but.

This is not an exact quote, but "There are no US tanks in Baghdad" comes to mind.
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duranium
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by duranium »

TheStig

Do us ( at the very least me ) a favour, please oh pretty please, use a spell checker
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Johnny Mapleleaf
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Johnny Mapleleaf »

Old fella wrote:"It's about being able to continue to put bread on the table......"

If you are 60+ yrs old(like me) and can't put bread on the table, WTF were you doing the past 30-40 yrs previous - that is the question
It's not about age 60-plus former AC pilots being able to put bread on the table (although I must admit, I have seen more than one senior AC pilot living out of a crapped out used car in one airport parking lot or another).

Rather, it is about the tens of thousands of people in the country that never had the opportunities that we had over the past 30-40 years who now have no option but to keep working to make ends meet.

That is especially the case, given the bulge in the population of soon-to-be out of work baby boomers. That's why this legislation is taking effect. And that is why it is useless for us to continue trying to argue against it on the basis of our own personal interests.
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Rockie
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Rockie »

Pilots are a self-centred bunch and none more so than Air Canada pilots. Mandatory retirement in our eyes is a good thing and should be maintained in Canada because...well...we're pilots. Furthermore we don't think this fight is over because on our behalf ACPA is putting up the good fight and our arguments will surely prevail, again I guess because we're pilots and therefore special. So let's look at the numbers to see where we fit in:

There are approximately 17,300,000 jobs in Canada. Our little pilot group constitutes 0.017% of that total, and less than half of us actually voted to maintain mandatory retirement.

The numbers look a little better for federally regulated employees of which we constitute about 0.375%.

Before this fight started 95% of the total employees in Canada (provincially regulated) already enjoyed protection from forced retirement on discriminatory grounds. The other 5% are federally regulated, and within a matter of days our delinquent federal government will finally get around to making it a clean sweep all across the land.

What kind of mindset thinks 0.017% of the total employees can successfully defend an outdated law that the other 99.983% think is discriminatory?

Air Canada pilots...that's who.
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Last edited by Rockie on Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheStig
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by TheStig »

I can see why most guys have given up posting here (insulting my spelling? Seriously?) Honestly I'm not trying to sling any mud, just ask the questions that come to mind reading this forum. Lots of opinions here, and it will be interesting to continue to watch how this unravels.

777Longhaul, thanks for your response, I'm sure we'd have nothing more than an interesting conversation over a pint on a layover if this came up at work. Agreed, the Bill certainly does leave ACPA as the third man out in this dispute.

Raymond, I have no doubt that you've believed in every word you've written, I simply question how responsible it is for a person in your position (of influence over others) to be making such claims. Thank you for admitting that in the past you may have been over zealous with your remarks. However, it doesn't make your more recent assumptions any more credible. The date is marked.
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Rockie
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Rockie »

Rockie wrote:Before this fight started 95% of the total employees in Canada (provincially regulated) already enjoyed protection from forced retirement on discriminatory grounds.
Stig

This is why it's been a foregone conclusion from day one. It's called "the writing on the wall" and probably a bunch of other cliche's that Air Canada pilots are pointedly ignoring. You don't have to be a genius to see how this was always going to end.
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Doug Moore »

Rockie wrote: Under some circumstances a "never say die" attitude is admirable, but when that attitude harms them by refusing to adapt to changing circumstances it is anything but.
Intransigence is a close cousin and Achille's Heel of tenacity. Unfortunately, the former is easily confused with the latter, and almost always results in unfavorable outcomes. Shooting yourself in the foot is a well-known and recognizable example of this affiction. In the most current dispute regarding mandatory retirement based on age, it would appear that ACPA has succeeded in shooting itself in both feet.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Raymond Hall »

TheStig wrote:Honestly I'm not trying to sling any mud, just ask the questions that come to mind reading this forum. Lots of opinions here, and it will be interesting to continue to watch how this unravels.

Raymond, I have no doubt that you've believed in every word you've written, I simply question how responsible it is for a person in your position (of influence over others) to be making such claims. Thank you for admitting that in the past you may have been over zealous with your remarks. However, it doesn't make your more recent assumptions any more credible.
Well, I suppose that responsibility, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Posting under my real name rather than under a pseudonym should tend to add at least a small degree of responsibility, if not accountability.

It has certainly cost me dearly, in my relationship with my former peers, I can assure you. So be it.

I am no Martin Luther King, by any stretch (Rosa Parks?), but I honestly look forward to the day when we as pilots, professionals or even just citizens can live without discrimination on the basis of race, religion, sex, and age, among other detriments to the human condition. We are a long way from that yet, however. And the experience of the past century is that it is only through the introduction and enforcement of laws that we can make true progress on that front. Without the desegregation laws in the U.S., there is no way that that country would have had a Black president today.

Thank you for the candour.
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TheStig
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by TheStig »

Raymond Hall wrote:Posting under my real name rather than under a pseudonym should tend to add at least a small degree of responsibility, if not accountability.
Some of us would rather remain a stigma I suppose.
Raymond Hall wrote:I am no Martin Luther King, by any stretch (Rosa Parks?).
Haha yup, everyone just wants a seat on the 'bus (or Boeing).
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by nextjob »

Stig
It's called balls.
Got any? Make statements, Sign them.
Raymond"s out there being shot at by all kinds of "Stigs" ????? who have pseudo balls.
Got any real cajones????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I get the feeling you must be a relief pilot on the (and this is with considerable latitude, maybe the 319).
Bob Mitchell
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Raymond Hall »

TheStig wrote:Some of us would rather remain a stigma I suppose.
I respect that choice.
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Cat Driver »

Posting on a forum such as Avcanada and discussing topics that are directly tied into rule of law is something that should be transparent.

I personally have never met Raymond Hall but I clearly understand the position he has willingly chosen by using his real name.

Regardless of wether you are right or wrong Ray, I admire the fact you have the self worth and the courage to do so.

. ..
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TheStig
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by TheStig »

Cat Driver wrote: Regardless of wether you are right or wrong Ray, I admire the fact you have the self worth and the courage to do so.
I second that, however, Bill I don't feel your personal attacks are justified. Raymond has not taken personal offence to my questions, and has respectfully responded to them. It would be a shame if a thread with so much information and intelligent debate were frozen. Childish antics and name calling is what has driven so many people away from the discussion here.
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Rockie »

TheStig wrote:There are repeated assertions that ACPA, AC, and others have their head in the sand, but maybe none of us are being given all of the information we need to properly assess this issue?
That's no excuse. All the information needed to properly assess this issue is readily available for anybody who cares to find it. I did.
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Ah_yeah
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Ah_yeah »

All very interesting opinions and thoughts on this matter. I'm not confident ACPA has the legal wherewithall or talent (as past episodes suggest) to get through this. I firmly believe you have all heavily discounted the influence of the mother corp itself. If you've learned nothing at all in the past few years, remember not to under estimated the other lawyer involved. If the end of status quo is going to cost Calin and his people money, he will not roll over and capitulate. You can say Calin and AC aren't above the law. That is obvious, but how exactly will the landscape look when this is finally settled remains open and dollars to Tim Bits, AC won't play nice. Victory for FP60 may look more diluted than some expect. Please don't tell me how much AC will save in pension costs...they don't give a dump about the pension and will use the same mentality to bore a hole in that at the first oppotunity. In the end we may all get a big fat lump of coal. Just say'in, keep an open mind.
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morefun
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by morefun »

Ah_yeah....you've touched on a good point and that is the pension, Calin would love to deep six it if he gets an opening or at the very least reduce the obligation substantially...just one reason why the Fly by 60 group is growing, they have no faith in their pensions down the road. :?:
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by MackTheKnife »

morefun wrote: Calin would love to deep six it if he gets an opening
ACPA will demolish the pension all by themselves in the next contract.

On top of being forced to accept a DC scheme for new hires, drastically reduced DB pension benefits are probably coming your way in the not too distant future to satisfy the underfunding disaster.
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Rockie »

Ah_yeah wrote: I'm not confident ACPA has the legal wherewithall or talent (as past episodes suggest) to get through this.
It doesn't matter how much legal wherewithall and talent ACPA or Air Canada have. Before Air Canada pilots referred this issue to the CHRT mandatory retirement was already abolished as discriminatory for 95% of the workers in Canada.

Why do only a few of us consider that fact significant?

The only thing ACPA and AC have done the last six years is delay the inevitable. In the process they've committed the pilots to huge financial liability and legal costs, driven a severely damaging wedge squarely down the middle of the pilot ranks, and ensured massive logistical chaos as 200+ pilots win reinstatement to a seniority list that is only designed to move one direction.
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Ah_yeah
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Ah_yeah »

Rockie wrote:Why do only a few of us consider that fact significant?
Perhaps because of personal bias Rockie...and that's cool. Every poster has a personal interest in the outcome. Your's is evident. All I'm saying is that it is unwise to discount the powers of corporate entities like AC in this day and age. Individual/worker rights are used as bum wad in executive washrooms and the chances of an undiluted victory of FP60 will rest largely with what deals get cut. None of us will be privey to that information.
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Rockie
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Re: Mandatory Retirement Repeal Passes 2nd Reading in Parlia

Post by Rockie »

Ah_yeah wrote:Perhaps because of personal bias Rockie...and that's cool. Every poster has a personal interest in the outcome. Your's is evident.
Perhaps you could tell me what my personal bias and interest in the outcome is to see if that statement makes any sense or not?
Ah_yeah wrote:Individual/worker rights are used as bum wad in executive washrooms and the chances of an undiluted victory of FP60 will rest largely with what deals get cut.
These are human rights we're taking about which all the provinces and territories have already protected, with the federal government bringing up the rear. I suggest you read up on current events in parliament to see how your opinion on corporate influence and backroom deal making is playing out.
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