Flight Attendant strike vote opens on July 28th

[Hangry]

I think the new pay scales are fair, ive been told it would be a salary of 30600 a year on year 1, plus approx 15 k or more in perdiums plus additional pay benefits aswell. A year one FA would be looking at 46-48 k a year or more, for only around 12 days of work a month and thats only year one, the pay scales move up rapidly. Considering this is a job has no prior education or experience required. And could be done by someone straight out of high school as a first job. Plus the working conditions on the job are amazing, staying in 4 or 5 star hotels, free travel, business class eligible for DH, retirement pension, plus full medical benefits.... need I say more, this a fair deal. I think they pulled of a huge win. Hard fought and hard won, good job to the FAs

Bizarre take, and full of inaccuracies.

Per diem is not salary. It's to offset the additional costs of being away from home.

Respectfully as a non troll, I actually tend to agree with Tolip with a lot of their points. Being a flight attendant is not a career that requires any sort of specialized skills. You can train anyone to be a flight attendant. They can be easily fired, and easily replaced. And yes, while perdiems are not a salary, it is income, and how you choose to spend it is up to you. I pack food for my trips whenever possible, and don't play the "tourist" role when I'm on the road. I eat my own food, and use my layover time for R&R for the vast majority of my layovers. The benefits to that? I pocket 1500-2000 every month.

If you choose to go out and get a steak dinner, go for a helicopter ride, scuba diving, buy souvenirs for all your friends, and spend money on other luxuries, those are not mandatory costs. You're not there on vacation. You're there to work. So view perdiems as you wish, but income is income. It's not the employer's responsibility to ensure you're able to pay your bills. You went to the employer, asked for a job, were offered a job with the terms of employment, and accepted the offer by signing your name. And here's the best part: If the job doesn't pay enough to make ends meet, GET A NEW JOB!

All of AC FA’s travel around the globe. Not just NA. Most of the time brining food isn’t an option.

Think bigger.

[Tolippilot]

Perdiums are not legally considered wage. But it is income, ive worked in the airlines for almost a decade now and I can EASILY cook and prepare food to take away for three days. Even for international flights, there are many prepared meals that are completely fine to take with you, and MOST international hotels even offer some all inclusive style food options. So for up to a three day pairing I am able to almost completely pocket all my perdiums. For over three days its hard and you need to order out. So if you look at it from that perspective perdiums are EVEN BETTER then wage, as it's non taxed. And 15 k in perdiums is actually worth like like 20k worth of regular income.

And yes you read my previous posts, I am on the side of the FAs getting a fair deal. And again for a year one FA with zero prior education or skills potentally as a FIRST job (thats an important caveat) 46 k in total compensation working an average of only 12 days a month, with full health benefits, pension, travel benefits, traveling the world in 4 to 5 star hotels. Its a great deal....

Remember that's only year one im talking about, if a FA at AC wants to make it a career they have pathways to incomes well over 100k a year. With this new contract

I mean, this comment will really make me sound like a boomer, but my first pilot job i essentially worked 7 days a week and make 22k total in an entire year, with ZERO benefits. And thats with a 4 year degree and 100 k in aviation school debt..

So if we use alittle abstract comparisons here. The FAs are getting a good deal. It will be hard for year one and two. But that's how it is at every airline, once they get to year 3 plus, life will be more comfortable. They took on the government and the company and fought a strong fight that will in years to come to benefit the strength of all unions in canada. Good on them!!

Now to look into my crystal ball, I'd guess they will vote this contract down. And then it will go to an arbitrator who will likly give them another small bump in pay. So all said and done, it will be a good deal. I forcee there will be women and men lined up out the door with resumes to work there. As there already is, which shows the working conditions can't be all that bad!

[Blackdog0301]

Don't flight attendants at a global airline often speak other languages, require training in medical situations, pass tests on emergency situations and are literally the face of the airline when dealing with passengers?

While I respect the job a flight attendant does, these are not things that take a great deal of time to train. As far as I'm aware, being able to speak more than one language is a definite asset, but not a requirement.

First aid training? Great! I took a first aid course when I was 16. They are not being trained on how to perform surgery at 30,000 feet with limited tools. Nose bleeds? Sure. Vomiting? Absolutely. Choking? A must have! But I'm not walking around with my first aid certificate from 15 years ago waiting to confidently jump into a situation where someone sprained an ankle and I'm the only one around who has first aid training.

First aid, emergency procedures, normal procedures, service, firefighting, regulations. We're talking 6-8 weeks of training here to cover all of this and more. Not years. You don't "graduate" as a flight attendant. You keep learning for the first year or two. Flight attendants on day one are going to require a ton of direction from more experienced coworkers. You don't deserve to earn 70k. After a few years, maybe!

[Freshredmeat]

Don't flight attendants at a global airline often speak other languages, require training in medical situations, pass tests on emergency situations and are literally the face of the airline when dealing with passengers?

While I respect the job a flight attendant does, these are not things that take a great deal of time to train. As far as I'm aware, being able to speak more than one language is a definite asset, but not a requirement.

First aid training? Great! I took a first aid course when I was 16. They are not being trained on how to perform surgery at 30,000 feet with limited tools. Nose bleeds? Sure. Vomiting? Absolutely. Choking? A must have! But I'm not walking around with my first aid certificate from 15 years ago waiting to confidently jump into a situation where someone sprained an ankle and I'm the only one around who has first aid training.

First aid, emergency procedures, normal procedures, service, firefighting, regulations. We're talking 6-8 weeks of training here to cover all of this and more. Not years. You don't "graduate" as a flight attendant. You keep learning for the first year or two. Flight attendants on day one are going to require a ton of direction from more experienced coworkers. You don't deserve to earn 70k. After a few years, maybe!

So you're in the middle of the North Atlantic, there is a medical emergency.

The FAs page for a doctor. There isn't one.

Who opens the medical kit and is in charge of this life & death situation?

[propfeather]

You don't deserve to earn 70k.

Who are you to say what people deserve to earn? Or whats 'fair'?

Just like pilots and AMEs, planes don't fly without flight attendants. We should all be cheering for them to get as good a rate as they can, rising tides or whatever.

[CPU2000]

Don't flight attendants at a global airline often speak other languages, require training in medical situations, pass tests on emergency situations and are literally the face of the airline when dealing with passengers?

While I respect the job a flight attendant does, these are not things that take a great deal of time to train. As far as I'm aware, being able to speak more than one language is a definite asset, but not a requirement.

First aid training? Great! I took a first aid course when I was 16. They are not being trained on how to perform surgery at 30,000 feet with limited tools. Nose bleeds? Sure. Vomiting? Absolutely. Choking? A must have! But I'm not walking around with my first aid certificate from 15 years ago waiting to confidently jump into a situation where someone sprained an ankle and I'm the only one around who has first aid training.

First aid, emergency procedures, normal procedures, service, firefighting, regulations. We're talking 6-8 weeks of training here to cover all of this and more. Not years. You don't "graduate" as a flight attendant. You keep learning for the first year or two. Flight attendants on day one are going to require a ton of direction from more experienced coworkers. You don't deserve to earn 70k. After a few years, maybe!

So you're in the middle of the North Atlantic, there is a medical emergency.

The FAs page for a doctor. There isn't one.

Who opens the medical kit and is in charge of this life & death situation?

The RP who makes $80k per year but since he is "replaceable" and "trained in 8 weeks" he should quit and find a new job if he doesn't like it.

This is the way according to corporate shills.

[Blackdog0301]

Don't flight attendants at a global airline often speak other languages, require training in medical situations, pass tests on emergency situations and are literally the face of the airline when dealing with passengers?

While I respect the job a flight attendant does, these are not things that take a great deal of time to train. As far as I'm aware, being able to speak more than one language is a definite asset, but not a requirement.

First aid training? Great! I took a first aid course when I was 16. They are not being trained on how to perform surgery at 30,000 feet with limited tools. Nose bleeds? Sure. Vomiting? Absolutely. Choking? A must have! But I'm not walking around with my first aid certificate from 15 years ago waiting to confidently jump into a situation where someone sprained an ankle and I'm the only one around who has first aid training.

First aid, emergency procedures, normal procedures, service, firefighting, regulations. We're talking 6-8 weeks of training here to cover all of this and more. Not years. You don't "graduate" as a flight attendant. You keep learning for the first year or two. Flight attendants on day one are going to require a ton of direction from more experienced coworkers. You don't deserve to earn 70k. After a few years, maybe!

So you're in the middle of the North Atlantic, there is a medical emergency.

The FAs page for a doctor. There isn't one.

Who opens the medical kit and is in charge of this life & death situation?

Easy... The FA's contact Medlink who provide them with the info, and in return, Medlink gives directions on how to treat this condition. Additionally, Medlink makes the recommendation on if the flight will divert, and to where. A smart crew would follow this direction. So who opens the Med Kit? The FA's. Who is in charge of deciding which medication to administer, how much medication, and if it is serious enough to warrant a diversion? Medlink. So to answer your question... 10% FA's, 90% Medlink.

[Blackdog0301]

While I respect the job a flight attendant does, these are not things that take a great deal of time to train. As far as I'm aware, being able to speak more than one language is a definite asset, but not a requirement.

First aid training? Great! I took a first aid course when I was 16. They are not being trained on how to perform surgery at 30,000 feet with limited tools. Nose bleeds? Sure. Vomiting? Absolutely. Choking? A must have! But I'm not walking around with my first aid certificate from 15 years ago waiting to confidently jump into a situation where someone sprained an ankle and I'm the only one around who has first aid training.

First aid, emergency procedures, normal procedures, service, firefighting, regulations. We're talking 6-8 weeks of training here to cover all of this and more. Not years. You don't "graduate" as a flight attendant. You keep learning for the first year or two. Flight attendants on day one are going to require a ton of direction from more experienced coworkers. You don't deserve to earn 70k. After a few years, maybe!

So you're in the middle of the North Atlantic, there is a medical emergency.

The FAs page for a doctor. There isn't one.

Who opens the medical kit and is in charge of this life & death situation?

The RP who makes $80k per year but since he is "replaceable" and "trained in 8 weeks" he should quit and find a new job if he doesn't like it.

This is the way according to corporate shills.

Who gave this RP a license if it only took them 8 weeks of training? I should've gone there, because it took me a solid 5 years to get to the airlines!

[Tolippilot]

He is right, medlink would be incharge of everything in that situation a FA would have zero liability, if it were serious the advice would be to administer some medicine orally, and secure the patient. Whether or not they made it would come down to how fast the pilots can divert and land and get them real medical treatment.

Its like you don't understand how the FA job works, you talk about them performing life saving operations over the Atlantic, and heroically saving people on a evacuation and being linguistic masters, do you watch alot of movies? Even in an evacuation senario, the job is to just open the door and direct people out side to a Designated meeting point, we like to over complicate things in our heads, but an evac from the point of view of an FA is to wait for the pilots to call for the evac, and then look out side for hazards, and then open the door. And direct people outside. Whether or not people survive is much more a factor of how the pilots handle the emergency, and not how quickly the FAs can open a door.

The job of an FA is usually done by young people as a fist job, and 99.9% of the work is greeting people and offering helpful and kind service. And taking care of the needs of passengers on a long flight. Its a critical job, and they are our colleagues and friends. But 46 k for year one as total compensation is fair, especially when you look at all of the other non income related benefits.

And also, there are no RPs out there that have 8 weeks of training. They have years and years of flignt training and have held multiple jobs to aquire thousands of flight hours before they could even apply for that job. it's a bad comparison.

[newlygrounded]

I mean, this comment will really make me sound like a boomer, but my first pilot job i essentially worked 7 days a week and make 22k total in an entire year, with ZERO benefits. And thats with a 4 year degree and 100 k in aviation school debt..

So why would you want anyone else to deal with this? Aside from accountants, we don't really make any other professional group "pay their dues"

Don't flight attendants at a global airline often speak other languages, require training in medical situations, pass tests on emergency situations and are literally the face of the airline when dealing with passengers?

While I respect the job a flight attendant does, these are not things that take a great deal of time to train. As far as I'm aware, being able to speak more than one language is a definite asset, but not a requirement.

First aid training? Great! I took a first aid course when I was 16. They are not being trained on how to perform surgery at 30,000 feet with limited tools. Nose bleeds? Sure. Vomiting? Absolutely. Choking? A must have! But I'm not walking around with my first aid certificate from 15 years ago waiting to confidently jump into a situation where someone sprained an ankle and I'm the only one around who has first aid training.

First aid, emergency procedures, normal procedures, service, firefighting, regulations. We're talking 6-8 weeks of training here to cover all of this and more. Not years. You don't "graduate" as a flight attendant. You keep learning for the first year or two. Flight attendants on day one are going to require a ton of direction from more experienced coworkers. You don't deserve to earn 70k. After a few years, maybe!

The public of today isn't the same as 20 years ago. Even just dealing with how shitty/agressive pax are should have lead to a huge pay increase. If someone is choking at whatever camp you were at, you can call the paramedics, or have some sort of backup in minutes. Even if they aren't legally liable it's incredibly stressful having to deal with a passengers sickness for the 1-3 hours it takes to get on the ground.

[Tolippilot]

I don't want anyone else to have to go through that, and the FAs certainly aren't. They are getting total compensation close to 50 thousand dollars on year one and receiving every benefit you can possibly receive. As a first job with no required education or skills. Its an amazing compensation offer.

[Blackdog0301]

I don't want anyone else to have to go through that, and the FAs certainly aren't. They are getting total compensation close to 50 thousand dollars on year one and receiving every benefit you can possibly receive. As a first job with no required education or skills. Its an amazing compensation offer.

And yet, from my connections and online posts, it sounds like it's going to be voted down. They look at the hourly figures alone, and decide its not enough. Plus, they want 100% pay for their boarding duties. In other words, Senior flight attendants want to be paid nearly 70(!!!) dollars an hour to welcome people on board, and conduct incredibly simple safety checks that can be done by anyone. They are literally blinded by the total value in this deal. And they'll end up with an arbitrated contract as a result.

If that's the precedent to be set, us pilots should fight for 100% paid preflight duties too! Walkarounds, briefings, cockpit setup, cleaning windshields, performance data... All unpaid work. Totally unacceptable!

[Stratopaused]

I've been really astounded about the attitude toward the FAs in this thread, because I was under the impression that labour groups are on the same team. Last year the pilots insisted on solidarity and expected that all other unions would support them in their fight against big bad management, but it seems like all the pilots in here expect the "unskilled labour" to earn as little as possible so that their stock options will appreciate in value.

If that's the precedent to be set, us pilots should fight for 100% paid preflight duties too! Walkarounds, briefings, cockpit setup, cleaning windshields, performance data... All unpaid work. Totally unacceptable!

Ah, there it is. "Crabs in a bucket" mentality. "Someone else is getting something that I don't personally have?! This is an outrage!"

Pathetic.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I don't want anyone else to have to go through that, and the FAs certainly aren't. They are getting total compensation close to 50 thousand dollars on year one and receiving every benefit you can possibly receive. As a first job with no required education or skills. Its an amazing compensation offer.

And yet, from my connections and online posts, it sounds like it's going to be voted down. They look at the hourly figures alone, and decide its not enough. Plus, they want 100% pay for their boarding duties. In other words, Senior flight attendants want to be paid nearly 70(!!!) dollars an hour to welcome people on board, and conduct incredibly simple safety checks that can be done by anyone. They are literally blinded by the total value in this deal. And they'll end up with an arbitrated contract as a result.

If that's the precedent to be set, us pilots should fight for 100% paid preflight duties too! Walkarounds, briefings, cockpit setup, cleaning windshields, performance data... All unpaid work. Totally unacceptable!

The pilot group will seek ground pay next. And why someone on the job can’t expect to be paid less than it’s hourly rate.

Are we paid less when in cruise on the AP?

Even better, are you paid less sleeping in the bunk? Explain me how sleeping is “managing fatigue” deserves more to be paid than someone doing security checks. ?

[7ECA]

Even better, are you paid less sleeping in the bunk? Explain me how sleeping is “managing fatigue” deserves more to be paid than someone doing security checks. ?

The crux of the argument seems to revolve around the "unskilled labour" as well as "lack of education" required as a prerequisite.

But, tell me again what lofty prerequisites are required to be and/or become a CPL/ATPL again? [/sarcasm]

[Dry Guy]

I think we should go for delay pay not ground pay. Otherwise we are opening a can of worms. I can see the company trying to clawback bunk time as non-work time for example.

[Cypresshill]

One thing is for sure, the FA group is far more tenacious and headstrong (ballsy) than AC pilots can ever dream to be. Your FAs have now made you look like wimps and your sudden capitulation at the wrong time in your own negots are revealing of the inadequacies of your group and the false confidence you let ALPA pump into you.

Deserve? Did some young moron pilot say deserve? Life doesn’t work by deserve rules.

[Man_in_the_sky]

One thing is for sure, the FA group is far more tenacious and headstrong (ballsy) than AC pilots can ever dream to be. Your FAs have now made you look like wimps and your sudden capitulation at the wrong time in your own negots are revealing of the inadequacies of your group and the false confidence you let ALPA pump into you.

Deserve? Did some young moron pilot say deserve? Life doesn’t work by deserve rules.

Who got 42% raise again? The fa or the pilot group.

[yycflyguy]

One thing is for sure, the FA group is far more tenacious and headstrong (ballsy) than AC pilots can ever dream to be. Your FAs have now made you look like wimps and your sudden capitulation at the wrong time in your own negots are revealing of the inadequacies of your group and the false confidence you let ALPA pump into you.

Deserve? Did some young moron pilot say deserve? Life doesn’t work by deserve rules.

The longer this plays out, the more correct ALPA was in making a deal when they did. I didn’t like it at the time but watching CUPE, AC and the company proves that ALPA extracted the most they could.

[newlygrounded]

One thing is for sure, the FA group is far more tenacious and headstrong (ballsy) than AC pilots can ever dream to be. Your FAs have now made you look like wimps and your sudden capitulation at the wrong time in your own negots are revealing of the inadequacies of your group and the false confidence you let ALPA pump into you.

Deserve? Did some young moron pilot say deserve? Life doesn’t work by deserve rules.

Who got 42% raise again? The fa or the pilot group.

Who fought section 107?

[landshark]

Shutting the airline down every four years is not peak leverage.

[crystalpizza]

I think we should go for delay pay not ground pay. Otherwise we are opening a can of worms. I can see the company trying to clawback bunk time as non-work time for example.

"Delay pay" was one of the items in the 2023 opener (whether that's relevant now or not) and obviously nothing came of it, curious what that would even look like for pilots? I know United gives you Add Pay (override) based on a TAFB formula if your return to base at the end of a pairing is delayed. Do any airlines pay pilots for extra time on the ground due to delayed departure?

[Launchpad1]

And also, there are no RPs out there that have 8 weeks of training. They have years and years of flignt training and have held multiple jobs to aquire thousands of flight hours before they could even apply for that job. it's a bad comparison.

Not to forget the RP does the same training and tests as the FO, plus a little extra. The position of RP is just that, it's a position. Whether you're an RP or FO is based on the luck of the draw in the Pit or personal choice. Eights weeks training

But 46 k for year one as total compensation is fair, especially when you look at all of the other non income related benefits

.

I feel like a good solution for CUPE to persue next time would be a monthly bonus system depending on where the FA is based. It's more expensive to live in Vancouver or Toronto than it is in Montreal or Winnipeg so FA's based in those two cities should (for example) get an extra $1500 a month to help pay for housing.

A lot of this is not how much the job of FA is deserving of getting paid, but simply that it is wrong to expect your employees to have to live on an unliveable wage.

[CaptDukeNukem]

And also, there are no RPs out there that have 8 weeks of training. They have years and years of flignt training and have held multiple jobs to aquire thousands of flight hours before they could even apply for that job. it's a bad comparison.

Not to forget the RP does the same training and tests as the FO, plus a little extra. The position of RP is just that, it's a position. Whether you're an RP or FO is based on the luck of the draw in the Pit or personal choice. Eights weeks training

But 46 k for year one as total compensation is fair, especially when you look at all of the other non income related benefits

.

I feel like a good solution for CUPE to persue next time would be a monthly bonus system depending on where the FA is based. It's more expensive to live in Vancouver or Toronto than it is in Montreal or Winnipeg so FA's based in those two cities should (for example) get an extra $1500 a month to help pay for housing.

A lot of this is not how much the job of FA is deserving of getting paid, but simply that it is wrong to expect your employees to have to live on an unliveable wage.

1) There’s no FA base in YWG.

2) you can’t give column 1 FAs more money than column 2 FAs. It would be an absolute S#!+ show

[Man_in_the_sky]

And also, there are no RPs out there that have 8 weeks of training. They have years and years of flignt training and have held multiple jobs to aquire thousands of flight hours before they could even apply for that job. it's a bad comparison.

Not to forget the RP does the same training and tests as the FO, plus a little extra. The position of RP is just that, it's a position. Whether you're an RP or FO is based on the luck of the draw in the Pit or personal choice. Eights weeks training

But 46 k for year one as total compensation is fair, especially when you look at all of the other non income related benefits

.

I feel like a good solution for CUPE to persue next time would be a monthly bonus system depending on where the FA is based. It's more expensive to live in Vancouver or Toronto than it is in Montreal or Winnipeg so FA's based in those two cities should (for example) get an extra $1500 a month to help pay for housing.

A lot of this is not how much the job of FA is deserving of getting paid, but simply that it is wrong to expect your employees to have to live on an unliveable wage.

1) There’s no FA base in YWG.

2) you can’t give column 1 FAs more money than column 2 FAs. It would be an absolute S#!+ show

There might be consultant coming from Jazz who can help set-up a B scale for sure.