A Boeing 777 Has Crash-Landed At San Francisco International

[pdw]

Are you seriously suggesting that the words "cleared to land" was a factor in this accident? If so, you haven't flown much in the US. You usually get your landing clearance on the first contact with the tower, even if your number 12 in line to land.

Had the pilot flown "much in the US" ? ... or missed "cleared to land" in the earlier communication ?

The transmissions seem to be uttered very rapidly, whereas comprehension of the returned English ... not necessarily.

[GUMPS]

I try and wait till I am on my days off and can have a few drinks before reading PDW posts...

[pdw]

To clarify: The dust settles after the 360 on the runway and the pilot called the tower. ATC responds from among the steady exchanges with other aircraft by informing emergency-response has been notified. Sounds like that directive is not immediately understood, so the controller repeats ... a bit slower and very clearly.

The crew here is rattled and in shock for-sure, but it's indication a language barrier can surface in the unusual situations (an uncommon visual approach at a foreign airport).

If not yet "cleared to land" because not understood, it would become a serious concern to the crew on short final ... not ATC.

[mbav8r]

pdw, the nonsense you come up with is dumbfounding! Language barrier or not, if you don't have a landing clearance on short final, the PF should be getting ready for a go around and the PNF should be talking to tower about the landing clearance. Myself, if it's looking like a go around, my thumb is hovering over the toga button and I'm mentally prepared for this maneuver, not flying below and slow.

It also amazes me, you are constantly berated for your post on here, yet you continue to do it. That leads me to believe you actually believe your completely off the wall theories or you are a troll, getting a kick out of messing with peoples minds.

[crazy_aviator]

The shit kicking PDW is getting is just another example of the infantile nature of most pilots in general Perhaps, many folks here cannot relate the cultural bias with a delayed clearance .( Certain cultures can get uppity and excited over little things , like landing clearance,,,Ever been to Italy? ) Some pilots here need to GROW UP!

[grimey]

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=465e38db&opt=1

Is the GS there still out? wtf is going on?

[boeingboy]

The glideslope is down for 2 months because they are doing construction near to the xmitter, and that could interfer with the signal.

[pdw]

Language barrier or not, if you don't have a landing clearance on short final, the PF should be getting ready for a go around and the PNF should be talking to tower about the landing clearance. Myself, if it's looking like a go around, my thumb is hovering over the toga button and I'm mentally prepared for this maneuver, not flying below and slow.

That's very well defined. That is their failure ... .

It also amazes me, you are constantly berated for your post on here, yet you continue to do it. That leads me to believe you actually believe your completely off the wall theories or you are a troll, getting a kick out of messing with peoples minds.

I find it too difficult watch an experienced crew drop down like that, then wait patiently for the report ... only to find out a limited explanation or nothing, and case closed. Such it is often with smaller GA accidents.

Basically, all it is ... seeing this type of accident repeating. ie What's the real combination required for that to happen ?

So this one factor is always present yet always mixed into another array (different kind of sequence) of events in succession ... but to find that factor as a contributor requires the surface analysis which turns out most of the time is not available for that time. In the early part of a search, ie when I pinpoint a LO pressure correctly (where a trough must originate in order to be a suspect factor) and the right strength of gradient/ speeds etc ... I usually pursue it until convinced it wasn't a problem. It's intriguing to see how often a misleading metar, showing harmless calm at the airport, is a completely different station than where the airplane or helicopter is situated ( ie such as at the time/place the desired glideslope is lost here) when things go wrong.

[GUMPS]

pdw I'm sorry I don't understand you. Are you saying I am cleared to land?

[pdw]

Is the GS there still out? wtf is going on?

Of the many visual approaches, that's just another that went off course enough to get recognized. All's well, so likely no further details ?

Can only imagine some you don't hear about ... where it gets more exciting in approach with autopilot off, no GS.

[RB211]

Sorry but with all do respect, PDW, either you have been drinking or I haven't been drinking enough because I really don't understand what you are on about.

[7thirtyseven]

The shit kicking PDW is getting is just another example of the infantile nature of most pilots in general Perhaps, many folks here cannot relate the cultural bias with a delayed clearance .( Certain cultures can get uppity and excited over little things , like landing clearance,,,Ever been to Italy? ) Some pilots here need to GROW UP!

In my little life experience people who yell "GROW UP" are usually middleschool girls struggling with hormones they just cant control.... I think most of us are beyond that (not much). PDWs posts are a continuing source of amusement to many, and a revelation of an oddly functioning reasoning process to most. Seriously If someone cant fly a 777 without obsessing about landing clearances, they need to find another line of work, like accounting. Or putting cans on shelves. Or dental hygenist. Or laundry dude in a hotel.
DONT TELL US TO GROW UP ANYMORE, ITS NOT ONE OF THE REQUIREMENTS TO POST ON AVCANADA, NEITHER IS INTELLIGENCE, OR KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

[confuzed]

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=465e38db&opt=1


Wow, another one that had issues in SFO.

[FICU]

If not yet "cleared to land" because not understood, it would become a serious concern to the crew on short final ... not ATC.

No it wouldn't... if you are not sure you simply ask, "tower, confirm XXX cleared to land rwy XX". Many times I have been on final and asked my partner if we were cleared to land and if we weren't 100% sure we would ask tower. Even on short final asking tower for landing clearance is no big deal and as stated earlier... in the US particularly, you get a landing clearance on initial contact with tower... "number 3... cleared to land".

[Old Dog Flying]

One day while a father and young son are standing by the perimeter fence watching the aircraft take-off and land, the father feels a tug at his sleeve. Looking down at the boy he asks, " Yes Johnny what is it?".

Johnny looks up and replies, "Daddy when I GROW up I want to be a PILOT!"

The father smiles and says












Johnny , make up your mind..You can't do both!"

[jpilot77]

https://www.wwgp1050.com/2013/07/29/faa ... francisco/

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/F ... 692348.php

Wonder if Canadian airlines fall under this.

[CID]

https://www.wwgp1050.com/2013/07/29/faa ... francisco/

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/F ... 692348.php

Wonder if Canadian airlines fall under this.

And the irony? Last week a Southwest Airlines pilot screwed up a visual/manual landing royally. He was too high and pushed the nose down to try to recover instead of going around. The result was a busted nose gear and several dozen pairs of ruined underwear. Could have been much worse.

So should the advisory apply to Southwest too?

[CpnCrunch]

https://www.wwgp1050.com/2013/07/29/faa ... francisco/

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/F ... 692348.php

Wonder if Canadian airlines fall under this.

This is what is known as "polishing shit".

Anyway, it's up to passengers to decide whether or not they want to fly on an airline where the pilots aren't proficient in visual approaches.

And the irony? Last week a Southwest Airlines pilot screwed up a visual/manual landing royally. He was too high and pushed the nose down to try to recover instead of going around. The result was a busted nose gear and several dozen pairs of ruined underwear. Could have been much worse.

So should the advisory apply to Southwest too?

Perhaps Southwest need to revise their stabilized approach height. Anyway, I think the point is that Southwest pilots regularly do visual approaches, whereas certain other airlines don't. Even when you're trained to do something you can sometimes screw it up. How much more likely is that when you're not even trained in the first place?

[pdw]

.... I really don't understand what you are on about.

My goal is to fully understand why it slowed down so far without them noticing, ... lightly loaded in the CAVU weather.

The accident report will inform us when released, but there's no negotiating the final word (ie discussing WX etc) once out.

Also like to know how legalizing GPS approach would prevent this type of accident. I guess with encouraging go-arounds the GPS approach comes in handy (helps ATC) for managing missed approaches ?

[CID]

Also like to know how legalizing GPS approach would prevent this type of accident. I guess with encouraging go-arounds the GPS approach comes in handy (helps ATC) for managing missed approaches

GPS approach is illegal?? Someone better tell....everyone.

Not only have NPA GPS approaches been "legal" for over a decade, there are now many published LPV and GLS precision approaches that are done with GPS.

[Driving Rain]

There are a couple of restrictions on GPS approaches ...If your system is a TSO-C129, any required alternate must have an approved instrument procedure other than GPS, and of course your aircraft must have the appropriate equipment for the approach. If you have approved WAAS avionics, you may plan to use any instrument approach authorized for use with WAAS avionics at a required alternate. You must use the LNAV minima line for planning purposes in case vertical guidance is not available.

[CID]

Driving Rain, your point is moot on a visual approach. You don't have to hand-bomb a visual approach. You can set up an LPV or GLS (if equipped) and fly a stabilized approach down to the AFCS minimums if you wanted to.

If it was IFR and the ILS is out and you have a C129 GPS then you have something but that's not the case. The "authorities" are suggesting that "foreign" pilots can't fly a manual stabilized approach and with no ILS they are suggesting a GPS "precision" approach I assume. Not a C129 NPA. SFO has a few RNAV approaches with published LPV minima. I don't understand why they didn't set up for that rather than hand fly it regardless of their cultural leanings.

[pdw]

GPS approach is illegal?? Someone better tell....everyone.

O.K. Sounded at first like that advisory 'made it mandatory' (for KFSO). So were they using it ?

... and somewhere must have been a low airspeed alarm.

[FICU]

The primary alarm should have been the PM or observer although an unusually high angle of attack should have also been a sign and the final alarm would have been the stick shaker.

[shimmydampner]

Yeah, right after LOOKING OUT THE EFFING WINDOW and realizing, "Oh shit! We're gonna miss that giant runway that we've been able to clearly see for miles!"