Sunwing/Westjet

[safetyfirst123]

“ So, SW pilots should loose out because WJ pilots decided to go to a company that had a 12 year upgrade probability?”

Short answer is YES. If you take job security and a new contract you don’t get to hold spots out of seniority.

But that's the definition of one group losing out, and that's why it's complicated. If upgrade times drop, why should Westjet pilots benefit? It's a rhetorical question but something worth pondering. As mentioned above, Sunwing pilots would be negotiating a new contract later this year. I'm also not so sure job security is as high at Westjet as some assume.

I wonder if Onex is eyeing other airlines at some point?

[CaptDukeNukem]

“ So, SW pilots should loose out because WJ pilots decided to go to a company that had a 12 year upgrade probability?”

Short answer is YES. If you take job security and a new contract you don’t get to hold spots out of seniority.

There’s always a solution. This is why these things get negotiated.

Your solution, sir, is absolutely laughable.

Sunwing pilots didn’t ask to be transferred to WestJet. People need to have some common sense. I expect a gentle transition, with fair transfers and fences in place.

[DutyFree]

“ So, SW pilots should loose out because WJ pilots decided to go to a company that had a 12 year upgrade probability?”

Short answer is YES. If you take job security and a new contract you don’t get to hold spots out of seniority.

True colours shining through…

Onyx buying SW is the best thing that has happened at WJ in the last 15 yrs! Oh wait they have 7 78’s!

[Handover]

“ So, SW pilots should loose out because WJ pilots decided to go to a company that had a 12 year upgrade probability?”

Short answer is YES. If you take job security and a new contract you don’t get to hold spots out of seniority.

Wait, you think Sunwing pilots don't have job security? Granted maybe not as much as WestJet, but Sunwing also has a few billion dollars of hotels as a shortstop.

One could also argue WestJet doesn't have job security compared to Air Canada, compared to....

Don't fall for the rumors. Sunwing has been around for near on 20.years, and jobs were plenty secure. And it is very debatable whether the 'new contract' is any better. I for one know that I will be earning less net and working more. Doesn't sound.lile a better contract.

It is what it is, we will have to accept what is handed to us, but don't kid yourself that we believe our jobs and personal lives will be better for it.

I would LOVE to be proven wrong on this.

[safetyfirst123]

Unfortunately the rhetoric going around is that Westjet saved a bankrupt Sunwing, which is far from true. This is why some Westjet pilots feel that Sunwing pilots must take it on the chin with the merger.

[daedalusx]

Full rebid but:

* SWG pilots that can no longer hold their left seats get their pay protected at the WJ capt rate with YOS (ie a 2016 SWG capt who gets bumped gets year 8 CA pay at the WJ rate)
* No bumping out of base, ie if you’re a SWG YUL crew, you can’t be forced out but your progression will be slowed by the WJ crew’s parachuting ahead of you.
* DOH + some kind of seniority adjustment (+1, +2 years to compensate for the the relative seniority loss like in the Can North / First Air merger)

Westjet guys wins, they get new upgrades, new routes and an eventual access to YUL.
Sunwing guys who lose their seats get more money, less responsibilities and in some case a “better schedule”(holding a block vs reserve). Junior SWG guys win, they don’t have to move their families. Some Sunwing commuters will get eventual access to YEG and YWG bases, another win.

There you go, problem solved, Onex wants to merge us they can afford to pay for it.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Full rebid but:

* SWG pilots that can no longer hold their left seats get their pay protected at the WJ capt rate with YOS (ie a 2016 SWG capt who gets bumped gets year 8 CA pay at the WJ rate)
* No bumping out of base, ie if you’re a SWG YUL crew, you can’t be forced out but your progression will be slowed by the WJ crew’s parachuting ahead of you.
* DOH + some kind of seniority adjustment (+1, +2 years to compensate for the the relative seniority loss like in the Can North / First Air merger)

Westjet guys wins, they get new upgrades, new routes and an eventual access to YUL.
Sunwing guys who lose their seats get more money, less responsibilities and in some case a “better schedule”(holding a block vs reserve). Junior SWG guys win, they don’t have to move their families. Some Sunwing commuters will get eventual access to YEG and YWG bases, another win.

There you go, problem solved, Onex wants to merge us they can afford to pay for it.

I like it.

Protect the money, and everything else sorts itself out in a few years.

[ads-b]

Arbitration will sort this out. Any guess is just a guess. I will save the suspense. Most won’t be happy. Now let’s all look to the gains that AC makes and focus on the future as a unified group.

[BigQ]

Full rebid but:

* SWG pilots that can no longer hold their left seats get their pay protected at the WJ capt rate with YOS (ie a 2016 SWG capt who gets bumped gets year 8 CA pay at the WJ rate)
* No bumping out of base, ie if you’re a SWG YUL crew, you can’t be forced out but your progression will be slowed by the WJ crew’s parachuting ahead of you.
* DOH + some kind of seniority adjustment (+1, +2 years to compensate for the the relative seniority loss like in the Can North / First Air merger)

Westjet guys wins, they get new upgrades, new routes and an eventual access to YUL.
Sunwing guys who lose their seats get more money, less responsibilities and in some case a “better schedule”(holding a block vs reserve). Junior SWG guys win, they don’t have to move their families. Some Sunwing commuters will get eventual access to YEG and YWG bases, another win.

There you go, problem solved, Onex wants to merge us they can afford to pay for it.

I like it. At this point, I don't care that i'll make more money or work more as a WJ crew, but if you bump me out of YUL, I'm out. No way in hell I'm moving to YYZ with my family. My viewpoint is shared by many in the YUL base.

~500 retirements at WJ in the next 5 years? Oh look, 500 pilots from SW are joining, maybe 50 of them retiring soon too. That 10 yr upgrade is about to drop, probably will be 5-7 years by 2027.

[WJ200]

500 retirements at WJ? Very few people have been retiring from WestJet lately and even if the AR program was removed I don't think the number would be close to 500.

[co-joe]

For Montreal, it's a 100% win for westjet pilot in the event of a DOH and bid.
They didn't have a YUL base before.
So worse case scenario they can't have a base they didn't have, best case they remove some swg pilots who were there for years...

That's assuming WS management doesn't F up the YUL base. Montreal'ers don't particularly like "West" Jet and the airline has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in growing the brand in eastern Canada beyond a token presence, once those pink planes get painted teal, the YUL base's days are likely numbered.

[MaxAuto]

For Montreal, it's a 100% win for westjet pilot in the event of a DOH and bid.
They didn't have a YUL base before.
So worse case scenario they can't have a base they didn't have, best case they remove some swg pilots who were there for years...

That's assuming WS management doesn't F up the YUL base. Montreal'ers don't particularly like "West" Jet and the airline has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in growing the brand in eastern Canada beyond a token presence, once those pink planes get painted teal, the YUL base's days are likely numbered.

Loyal SW customers will still purchase via Sunwing Vacations website which will continue to exist. I don't think it's days are numbered. There will be plenty of french qualified FAs.

[co-joe]

For Montreal, it's a 100% win for westjet pilot in the event of a DOH and bid.
They didn't have a YUL base before.
So worse case scenario they can't have a base they didn't have, best case they remove some swg pilots who were there for years...

That's assuming WS management doesn't F up the YUL base. Montreal'ers don't particularly like "West" Jet and the airline has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in growing the brand in eastern Canada beyond a token presence, once those pink planes get painted teal, the YUL base's days are likely numbered.

Loyal SW customers will still purchase via Sunwing Vacations website which will continue to exist. I don't think it's days are numbered. There will be plenty of french qualified FAs.

And I hope WS doesn't screw them over. To operate a successful yul/ yqb based airline, you need francophone crews. Ideally you need french sops, and a french speaking org structure. Sure you can keep sunwing vacations, selloff vacations, and signature vacations, but when the crews are anglo's flying teal aircraft the gig is up, or it's just a matter of time.

[munzil]

That's assuming WS management doesn't F up the YUL base. Montreal'ers don't particularly like "West" Jet and the airline has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in growing the brand in eastern Canada beyond a token presence, once those pink planes get painted teal, the YUL base's days are likely numbered.

Loyal SW customers will still purchase via Sunwing Vacations website which will continue to exist. I don't think it's days are numbered. There will be plenty of french qualified FAs.

And I hope WS doesn't screw them over. To operate a successful yul/ yqb based airline, you need francophone crews. Ideally you need french sops, and a french speaking org structure. Sure you can keep sunwing vacations, selloff vacations, and signature vacations, but when the crews are anglo's flying teal aircraft the gig is up, or it's just a matter of time.

Lol, there are plenty of Anglo Sunwing pilots in YUL right now. The SOPs are in English now. And God knows what a French speaking org structure is considering Sunwing is a Toronto based company. CEO must speak French??

Let me turn that around. "but when the crews are Quebecois flying teal aircraft 'anywhere else in Canada' the gig is up, or it's just a matter of time'

Everyone should keep to their lanes right? Xenophobe

[boeingboy]

Our crews are not required to speak French.

In fact - all our cabin safety briefings are done live in English and pre-recorded in French.

[MaxAuto]

That's assuming WS management doesn't F up the YUL base. Montreal'ers don't particularly like "West" Jet and the airline has made it pretty clear they aren't interested in growing the brand in eastern Canada beyond a token presence, once those pink planes get painted teal, the YUL base's days are likely numbered.

Loyal SW customers will still purchase via Sunwing Vacations website which will continue to exist. I don't think it's days are numbered. There will be plenty of french qualified FAs.

And I hope WS doesn't screw them over. To operate a successful yul/ yqb based airline, you need francophone crews. Ideally you need french sops, and a french speaking org structure. Sure you can keep sunwing vacations, selloff vacations, and signature vacations, but when the crews are anglo's flying teal aircraft the gig is up, or it's just a matter of time.

Where in the world did you hear that? Im YYZ and I bid and operate a lot of YUL and YQB pairing during he winter. I make all my PAs in english only. No one care or complains.

They will buy whatever vacation package is a good deal.

The french speaking FAs in YUL and costumer service agents will have no problem keeping costumers around.

[sicamore]

And I hope WS doesn't screw them over. To operate a successful yul/ yqb based airline, you need francophone crews. Ideally you need french sops, and a french speaking org structure. Sure you can keep sunwing vacations, selloff vacations, and signature vacations, but when the crews are anglo's flying teal aircraft the gig is up, or it's just a matter of time.

Guess you expect all the resorts in mexico and Caribbean to cater to them in French as well...

[BigQ]

Well, of course, that's why you can buy poutine in French at Los Tabernacos in Playa del Carmen.

Québecois hegemony everywhere!

[mijbil]

Well, of course, that's why you can buy poutine in French at Los Tabernacos in Playa del Carmen.

Québecois hegemony everywhere!

Almost. The poutine in PRG is in Czech (of course) and English. And pilsner everywhere. I am convinced the Czech national sport is beer drinking. Pity this will all end after the merge with WS that virtually no one here at WG wants except for Steven Hunter. Right now I look at this deployment as a 74 day layover with 100 +- crew in town and per diem (we call it allocate) of $215 USD per day. There will be lots of conversations in the next few years about how it really was the best lifestyle of all the 4 bigger 705 operators.

[cdnavater]

Well, of course, that's why you can buy poutine in French at Los Tabernacos in Playa del Carmen.

Québecois hegemony everywhere!

Almost. The poutine in PRG is in Czech (of course) and English. And pilsner everywhere. I am convinced the Czech national sport is beer drinking. Pity this will all end after the merge with WS that virtually no one here at WG wants except for Steven Hunter. Right now I look at this deployment as a 74 day layover with 100 +- crew in town and per diem (we call it allocate) of $215 USD per day. There will be lots of conversations in the next few years about how it really was the best lifestyle of all the 4 bigger 705 operators.

Too bad you can’t see the future, if you could you might predict a time where you have a wife and kids and they don’t appreciate you being gone all summer, pity.

[Handover]

Too bad you can’t see the future, if you could you might predict a time where you have a wife and kids and they don’t appreciate you being gone all summer, pity.

The company pays for family travel and accommodation. Most pilots have their families with them. I have mine here for the full duration of my deployment. They love it.

Those that don't mostly stay at home with their families for a very relaxed summer of a couple or more flights a month on full pay.

[nohojob]

Or they get drafted...

Like anything else it's not all good or all bad.

If you're single and young, it's great.
If you're kids are gone, it is great also.
If youcan take the whole family along, young kids and your partner can join you, great also !
Now, if you're kids are in school,you'll end up on your own most of the time.
Your partner has a job, well, same...
To some extent, it's good for the money, however Prague ain't cheap any more. Nice city though.
Schedule during deployment ? If you can hold the midday flights, you're in a great shape. If you can't hold those flights, you'll getting up at 2:AM or coming back from flying at 5:00 AM.
So again, a mixed bag.

And yes, a bunch of caps got drafted. So if you're drafted for the 2 and a half months, company pays for your family travel. If you're drafted for 1 month, company doesn't pay. On the bright side, they give you a place to stay and a car.

[mijbil]

[
Too bad you can’t see the future, if you could you might predict a time where you have a wife and kids and they don’t appreciate you being gone all summer, pity.

[/quote]

Actually the spouse and one of the kids are over here right now. They will see Prague after our Austrian vacation in the second half of August. Right now they met up with some of the other family members and are on some sort of cruise of the Greek islands and parts of Italy. If I am working, they blast off on mini vacations. The great part is that we are all on the time zone so no dealing with jet lag. We love the Sunwing lifestyle.
Nothing is perfect of course.Real travel benefits like MyIDtravel for all of us like we had at 5T would be perfect but these deployments are a pretty good gig.

As for the drafting this year, Im not sure if guys were not wanting to deal with the Smartwings chaotic sked compared with the TUI machine, or having to go and source your own apartment or just changing life circumstance ( small kids etc). We all knew about the deployments before you signed up so it's just part of the deal

And yes PRG is expensive compared to Poland but no-one is eating KD. Still lots of allocate (per diem on steroids) to allow for plenty of nights out. If we were not getting sold down the river by S Hunter then our CBA was up this winter. I would have thought that increases to the allocate would have been one of the items of discussion given the current crazy inflation.

Several of us are hoping that WS keeps fiddling with the merge and it grts delayed again and we get another summer over here.

Even better would be if whoever is dictating things now ( probably WS in the background) could get their act together in time to strike another deal with TUI UK then we could have the UK option again. I was told that they pissed around so long that the British government said “deals off” since they didn’t see a reciprocate deal for the UK pilots this coming winter. Typical Sunwing last minute planning and missed the deadline.

Anyhow still better than flogging around North America doing 5-6 sectors like the WS slaves. This really is a great lifestyle company overall.

[cdnavater]

[
Too bad you can’t see the future, if you could you might predict a time where you have a wife and kids and they don’t appreciate you being gone all summer, pity.

Actually the spouse and one of the kids are over here right now. They will see Prague after our Austrian vacation in the second half of August. Right now they met up with some of the other family members and are on some sort of cruise of the Greek islands and parts of Italy. If I am working, they blast off on mini vacations. The great part is that we are all on the time zone so no dealing with jet lag. We love the Sunwing lifestyle.
Nothing is perfect of course.Real travel benefits like MyIDtravel for all of us like we had at 5T would be perfect but these deployments are a pretty good gig.

As for the drafting this year, Im not sure if guys were not wanting to deal with the Smartwings chaotic sked compared with the TUI machine, or having to go and source your own apartment or just changing life circumstance ( small kids etc). We all knew about the deployments before you signed up so it's just part of the deal

And yes PRG is expensive compared to Poland but no-one is eating KD. Still lots of allocate (per diem on steroids) to allow for plenty of nights out. If we were not getting sold down the river by S Hunter then our CBA was up this winter. I would have thought that increases to the allocate would have been one of the items of discussion given the current crazy inflation.

Several of us are hoping that WS keeps fiddling with the merge and it grts delayed again and we get another summer over here.

Even better would be if whoever is dictating things now ( probably WS in the background) could get their act together in time to strike another deal with TUI UK then we could have the UK option again. I was told that they pissed around so long that the British government said “deals off” since they didn’t see a reciprocate deal for the UK pilots this coming winter. Typical Sunwing last minute planning and missed the deadline.

Anyhow still better than flogging around North America doing 5-6 sectors like the WS slaves. This really is a great lifestyle company overall.
[/quote]
Of course, it’s great under ideal circumstances but if the draft is any indication and make no mistake it is, deployments get old.
I can assume your kids are young maybe, not school age yet, believe me, once they have a social life, you’ll be the enemy for taking them away from their friends for the whole summer.
I can’t see WJ doing the reciprocal thing as they were super critical of Sunwing back in the days were they had foreign pilots at the controls, I wouldn’t say never to anything but a pretty good assumption it won’t happen. Not to mention, I doubting very many WJ pilots would support deployments.
Anyhow, enjoy it while you can but I suggest just rolling with the punches as the only constant in aviation is change.

[-TSRA]

Anyhow still better than flogging around North America doing 5-6 sectors like the WS slaves. This really is a great lifestyle company overall.

I keep seeing these myths about WS pilots flying 16 full days a month, slogging 5-6 sectors. While no doubt Sunwing has some nice scheduling perks, it can't be overstated how far off such myths are re: WS. Anecdotally, I seldom fly more than 8 - 11 days a month and typically do only single day turns, so 2 legs per day. I don't recall a single month since I have worked here where I was blocked the full 16 days our contract allows. Multi-day pairings usually have 1-3 sector days, although there are some with 4 sectors, but few and far between. It can hardly be called the norm. Take it for what it's worth.