May 1 startup day Air Georgian

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DH772
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by DH772 »

Sorry, but I for one don't think there's another airline merger in Canada any more than I see success in Rouge's future. Again, because unions are trying to dictate to their employer how things are going to be instead of following the leadership that conceived Rouge in the first place and who have the vision and plan to steer it toward success. Will it be another ZIP? Tango?

Please do provide use with said facts? You seem quite confident about that statement. I'd imagine you probably have some kind of financial figures to support that claim? Where did you get your business degree from if you don't mind me asking? Cheers
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whipline
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by whipline »

There's only two reasons rouge is here. 1 AC was on the hook for the 319 leases for another 6 years. The airplane was losing money every time it went flying. They needed more seats in it. 2 Lower wages ( union busting courtesy of the government)

Where it heads is a mystery to all.
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rudder
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by rudder »

whipline wrote:There's only two reasons rouge is here. 1 AC was on the hook for the 319 leases for another 6 years. The airplane was losing money every time it went flying. They needed more seats in it. 2 Lower wages ( union busting courtesy of the government)

Where it heads is a mystery to all.
Rouge was more about getting around CUPE than ACPA. Next on the list will be UNIFOR(CAW) and the IAMAW. And now that AC has come with their big 'ask' list, ACPA will have an opportunity to 'repair' the deficiencies in the Rouge LOU.

AC needs the AC pilots to fly the planes. With the exception of the AME's, the other positions are easily filled by OTS.
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Gino Under
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Gino Under »

DH772

Ouch!
So, insults it is.

I don't have a degree. I don't need one to speculate.
I don't have financials to back up any of my sh*t either. I'm speculating. I might even be lying...
How well educated are you? What's your degree in?
Who cares?

In fact, if you had some education yourself you'd probably understand there's little FACT in speculation. Doesn't need to be. It's speculation. And obviously, I'm speculating. (it surprises me you didn't pick up on that)
But I do appreciate the fact that opinions occasionally can be backed up with fact but IF Rouge fails, then there's probably a basis for further discussion. Which is unlike speculation because it won't be speculation then, it will be fact.
I'm only using my personal opinions based on the number of airline failures in Canada that I've witnessed since 1971 and the reasons for their failure don't require a business degree or financial statements. Since not much has changed over the years it's probably an easy call whether I make it or you do.
Especially with A319s.
But let's giv'em the chance to succeed.

I hope they succeed. I honestly do. It ain't going to be easy with ACPA (and the other unions) to deal with but then, you know that as well as I do, don't you?

Gino Under :partyman:
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by sstaurus »

Gino Under wrote:...based on the number of airline failures in Canada that I've witnessed since 1971...
Yep, unfortunately I don't think anyone needs a crystal ball here...
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dukepoint
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by dukepoint »

No crystal ball required.......but perhaps a little knowledge about what you're talking about might help.

You guys clearly have absolutely no idea what Rouge is, or why it exists. Feel free to speculate about its viability all you like though.

DP.
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Fanblade
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Fanblade »

Gino Under wrote:I think it's safe to say in the not too distant future a good number of Canadian pilots are likely to begin their migration home. They'll come from such companies as Cathay Pacific, Qatar Airways, Emirates, Etihad, Singapore Airlines, Air China. All over. Chased overseas by a dysfunctional airline industry in the first place, these pilots will bring home great qualifications with wide body, international flying experience and most will have thousands of command hours to offer prospective Canadian airline employers.

You'd think the notion would bring welcomed relief from that suspected pilot shortage we're constantly hearing about.

I bet our airlines, given the choice, would welcome this talent with open arms and a sigh of relief. Unfortunately, this wealth of qualification and experience isn't likely be greeted with the open arms one would expect because the pilot unions for the most part (and ACPA in particular), will ensure these pilots sit junior F/O at a junior base on junior equipment
Well that certainly smacks of self interest. No different than say a regional pilot being pissed because ACPA wouldn't give their jobs away to them.

If anything you exemplify why seniority is required. Without it, we would become a bunch of self entitled, back stabbing pricks.

You knew when you left how the system works. Name one western based legacy airline that you can go direct 777CA?

So why the focused derision toward ACPA? Simply because they have control over what you covet?
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ourkid2000
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by ourkid2000 »

Without it, we would become a bunch of self entitled, back stabbing pricks
Explain to me how you're not.

Sheesh,

Never seen the like of you crowd. I always thought us AME's were bad but I have to say, we've got nothing on you. I browse all the various threads and I just can't believe the relations between you all.

Jazz pilots resent Air Georgian and Sky Regional pilots. Sky Regional pilots, on the other hand, can't wait to get out of there. Air Georgian people think they're the next big thing and are about to take over the world...."screw Jazz". Air Canada pilots fight among each other about flying past 60 and forsaking the junior people to Rouge. Embraers are yet another racket. Loads of pilots fighting among each other about temporary foreign workers.....scab this, scab that. Lets not forget about Encore pilots, etc. I really could go on and on.

If this cross sectional sample is somewhat accurate, none of us stand a chance. Not a chance in hell. All I can say is good luck to us all.
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dukepoint
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by dukepoint »

ourkid2000 wrote:
Without it, we would become a bunch of self entitled, back stabbing pricks
Explain to me how you're not.

Sheesh,

Never seen the like of you crowd. I always thought us AME's were bad but I have to say, we've got nothing on you. I browse all the various threads and I just can't believe the relations between you all.

Jazz pilots resent Air Georgian and Sky Regional pilots. Sky Regional pilots, on the other hand, can't wait to get out of there. Air Georgian people think they're the next big thing and are about to take over the world...."screw Jazz". Air Canada pilots fight among each other about flying past 60 and forsaking the junior people to Rouge. Embraers are yet another racket. Loads of pilots fighting among each other about temporary foreign workers.....scab this, scab that. Lets not forget about Encore pilots, etc. I really could go on and on.

If this cross sectional sample is somewhat accurate, none of us stand a chance. Not a chance in hell. All I can say is good luck to us all.
It all comes down to someone else wanting what someone else has. Do you seriously wonder why Air Canada has a target painted on it? Job security, higher pay, benifits, big metal, cool destinations; they're all there and everyone would rush in to get a piece of the action if you drop your gaurd. Anarchy will ensue.

Some were denyed, and angry..... some were forced to retire, and angry......some are Scoped and angry......some are just angry cuz they have a lawyer that says they should be angry....... some are just born angry.

It's like a really nice large, perfectly ripe banana. All us Monkeys want it. Like I mentioned before, once you realize that not that long ago we were still swinging in the trees hurtling sticks at one another, we're actually not doing too bad at all. On an evolutionary scale, we just started walking upright yesterday. Not 200 generations past, it would be normal for someone to sacrifice their firstborn to stop a volcano from erupting. You're expectations are far to high for the likes of the average Neanderthal pilot. There's a reason our knuckes drag, and we have such heavy brow ridges.

If you want Utopia, don't read the forums, go watch Star Trek. Don't read the news either, cuz there will be tribal conflict in Africa, religeous problems until we "get it", murders, corporate greed, terrorism, angry unions, poverty, accidents caused by negligence, and sabotage, governments that lie, and pilots that backstab. None of this stuff is going away anytime soon.

Just go with it dude, lower your expectations a lot, and enjoy the read. :rolleyes:

DP.
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Fanblade
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Fanblade »

LOL,

That was good Dukepoint.

Ourkid,

Personally I think the problem is the vast difference between the haves and have nots in this industry. That casam keeps growing.
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Gino Under
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Gino Under »

I'm not sure ACPA has a legitimate claim to the jobs at any regional here just because ALPA does there (matter of opinion)? I have no intention of igniting another debate over that. It would only invite more union drivel and it's just not worth it.

Actually, the intelligent application of seniority, in other words, seniority that considers the bigger picture and not just the self interests of a particular group, is what should be required. What makes you think ACPA membership aren't "a bunch of self entitled, back stabbing pricks"? (Not my words. I stole them from an earlier post) What's the difference between that group and other groups? The backs that are stabbed? Maybe those forced to retire at age 60 would provide a better answer to that than me?

Yes. Those who went overseas knew when they left how the system worked. I can assure you, that experienced group is highly unlikely to return looking for an opportunity to give back to Canadian aviation and I seriously doubt they'll be knocking down the doors at Air Canada because they want what someone else has just to sit junior reserve. That notion is hilarious. To suggest otherwise is nothing more than arrogance and plain stupidity.
Air Canada will have a steady stream of "cadets" feeding the bottom of their seniority list and that, apparently, is all that union group wants. All in the name of seniority.

To name one western based legacy airline that hires direct 777CA is akin to naming one Canadian carrier that operates the B747-400. This is nothing more than a rhetorical question of convenience. Because, time will change that reality. There may not be a western based legacy airline today who does, but in the not to distant future there (out of necessity) will be. What if one of those legacy airlines happens to be Air Canada? Is ACPA ready for that eventuality?

So why the focused derision toward ACPA? Well, if you look at Canada and its airlines, ACPA is the one Canadian pilot union that does very little to advance or better aviation in Canada. It's too introverted and self entered. It should be doing more and it could be doing more. They spent how much fighting age discrimination/mandatory retirement amongst their own membership while ignoring the influx of foreign pilots around them. I don't recall reading much in this country about what that union does/did to prevent Canadian jobs from being handed out to foreign pilots while not accounting for the damage it did to those entering the profession who were robbed of an opportunity. Who did ACPA hold accountable? No one? Was that because it didn't directly affect them? They were certainly slow out of the gate to get involved and I suspect it was due more to embarrassment than having kept their eye on the ball. I guess we'll have to wait for sh*t like that to happen at Air Canada before we get a responsible response.

I can assure you, they have no control over anything I covet. I haven't flown a Canadian registered aeroplane in years.

In the end, not my circus. Not my monkeys.

Gino Under :smt023
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Fanblade »

Gino Under wrote:what makes you think ACPA membership aren't "a bunch of self entitled, back stabbing pricks"? (Not my words. I stole them from an earlier post) What's the difference between that group and other groups? The backs that are stabbed?
You miss quoted me.

If anything you exemplify why seniority is required. WITHOUT IT, we would become a bunch of self entitled, back stabbing pricks.

To be clear. That applies to all of us.
Gino Under wrote: Yes. Those who went overseas knew when they left how the system worked.
Thank you
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teacher
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by teacher »

If anything you exemplify why seniority is required.
Actually Fanblade, seniority based compensation and hiring practices at airlines is an anchor being dragged from years ago being a crown corporation. Guarantied jobs for life just move of up the ladder.

It is the millstone around our necks preventing any meaningful improvements in pilot wages and working conditions. We have supported and trumpeted our own chains in an effort to retain what little we have left. If pilots were free to move and work at will AND be paid commensurate with experience we would as a profession be SO MUCH further ahead. Pilot retention would be about keeping pilots and their experience not seeing how little companies can pay before we leave for greener pastures.

Just imagine for a second if when a new start up appeared and needed experienced pilots guys could just leave and be paid for what their worth! Companies would have to pony up to keep the guys they have. Maybe do a few years over seas instead than return and work for the highest bidder?

Seniority is not the be all end all, it is one of the reasons we are where we are.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Localizer »

Good post Teacher.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by dukepoint »

teacher wrote:
If anything you exemplify why seniority is required.
Actually Fanblade, seniority based compensation and hiring practices at airlines is an anchor being dragged from years ago being a crown corporation. Guarantied jobs for life just move of up the ladder.

It is the millstone around our necks preventing any meaningful improvements in pilot wages and working conditions. We have supported and trumpeted our own chains in an effort to retain what little we have left. If pilots were free to move and work at will AND be paid commensurate with experience we would as a profession be SO MUCH further ahead. Pilot retention would be about keeping pilots and their experience not seeing how little companies can pay before we leave for greener pastures.

Just imagine for a second if when a new start up appeared and needed experienced pilots guys could just leave and be paid for what their worth! Companies would have to pony up to keep the guys they have. Maybe do a few years over seas instead than return and work for the highest bidder?

Seniority is not the be all end all, it is one of the reasons we are where we are.
I absolutely disagree with this statement. Bidding wars end poorly for all bidding. Who can do it cheepest will win. Airlines hire Captains. Every pilot should be capable enough to fly an airliner alone in the event of an incapacitation. If they cannot meet that standard, they should NOT be in the cockpit.

What's my point? It's that there is a performance standard for Airline Pilots, meet that standard and passengers will be safe, and the operation will be run efficiently. A pilot with 25,000 hours is not inherantly safer, nor more efficient. Follow the SOP's and the standard will be met.......period. How exactly would we determine who is the better pilot anyway??? Would having the ability to do an inverted ILS in a fighter jet prove it?

Who cares who can do an inverted ILS....cuz you'll never do one in an airliner.

Commercial Aviation is not business law, or car sales, where one can clearly "excel" above others. Doesn't work that way. The only thing that keeps pilots from "underbidding" each other to pay their mortgages is a seniority based system and Scope......period. It's all we have. Other than the training cost metric, it's the only thing that keeps wages where they are.

There is no way I'd think my family was safer travelling on an Airliner with an Expat at the controls over an upgraded FO who came up through the ranks at a specific Canadian airline. There is no substitute for being "born" into a solid Company, and being extremely versed in the use and application of that company's SOP's in the event of an emergency. Flying for multiple airlines as a "freelancer" with a half-dozen SOP's dancing around in ones head, could almost be considered a hinderance.

DP.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by anonymity »

Someone completely missed the point!
Seniority is the anchor that keeps us attached to the boat, even if that boat is sinking. Imagine if the airlines had to compete for Pilots, imagine WAWCONs then!
I knew a company once that paid based on experience, every 500 PIC time was 250 more to base salary, what a concept. Can you imagine starting at a new company and being paid for your years of experience instead of being paid the same as a "Cadet". That's coming to your shop in the near future!

Dukepoint, from your earlier posts maybe in a different topic but, do you know the difference between preferential hiring and flow through? I can't fathom how one becomes such an elitist but to suggest pilots with 20-30 plus years of service for the same corporation should be treated as new hires, why because it wasn't available to you when you made your "choice".
I can only hope you are a minority, part of the 5% we all hear about and based on your opinions expressed lately I can assume you are!
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by dukepoint »

anonymity wrote:Someone completely missed the point!
Seniority is the anchor that keeps us attached to the boat, even if that boat is sinking. Imagine if the airlines had to compete for Pilots, imagine WAWCONs then!
I knew a company once that paid based on experience, every 500 PIC time was 250 more to base salary, what a concept. Can you imagine starting at a new company and being paid for your years of experience instead of being paid the same as a "Cadet". That's coming to your shop in the near future!

Dukepoint, from your earlier posts maybe in a different topic but, do you know the difference between preferential hiring and flow through? I can't fathom how one becomes such an elitist but to suggest pilots with 20-30 plus years of service for the same corporation should be treated as new hires, why because it wasn't available to you when you made your "choice".
I can only hope you are a minority, part of the 5% we all hear about and based on your opinions expressed lately I can assume you are!

You missed my point. Being a safe pilot means attaining and maintaining a standard. That standard can be achieved by being first, situationally aware, and second by being very conversant with the Company SOPS. Hours alone, does not a great pilot make. We're not selling "Sham-Wows" at the PNE.

OK, lets look at the proposed scenario for five seconds. No one is attached to any airline, and can freely go wherever they choose. Airlines will NOT hire you and pay you based on experience.....possibly to a point, but thats it.

What's stopping a Company like Westjet from saying..."Transport Canada requires an ATPL and 1500 hours total time to fly a 737 as Captain........so anyone with 1500 hours please apply, and by the way, inform us of your lowest working wage so we have some way to sort all the candidates". "Oh ya, contracts are only 2 years, and your continued employment will be based on how hard you work to shave dollars off the operation.........all within the bounds of the CARS of course :wink:" The Company will rely on Transport Canada to set the standard. The Company will expect that standard to be "safe enough"......and will hang the pilot without mercy if they mess up.

ANARCHY. It's too rediculous a scenario to even consider.

Thankfully that's not how it works.....and won't work that way for some time, so the debate is completely moot anyway.

DP.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Fanblade »

Teacher, Anonymity and Loc,

No system is perfect obviously. Certainly I get the fact that seniority tied to the wrong “guess", because that is what it is, a guess, can be devastating.

However corporations would not be competing for pilots. Pilots would be competing with each other for jobs. This is the very tactic employed by US majors at regionals and now being imported to Canada. Contract employees (groups in this case) whipsawed against each other to lower wages and working conditions.

You want to expand this concept??????

Case in point. If your theory that corporations will compete for pilots then explain the Encore, GGN, and SKV pay scales to me. These corporations are clearly demonstrating they don't give a rats azz about experience. In fact barely qualified is better because you can pay them less. I can tell you right now a 4,000 hr pilot will be picked over a 25,000 pilot simply because he/she can be paid less. The 25,000 hour pilot will have no choice but to compete and lower his expectations.

The only way you stop this is a collective group dictating the rules. With that said in a perfect world we would have a national seniority list. What company you moved to wouldn't matter.

A bunch of pages ago I suggested you guys start that process. A single AC regional pilot list. Seniority mobility between regionals. Set the WAWCON. 100% Flow through to AC. No one seems interested.

As for being paid more than new hire pay and join AC? I get what you are saying. Trust me I'm living that bad dream right now. But it would have to be in the ACPA collective agreement. First off ACPA would demand all new hires be treated the same. I'm all for that!

But it defies reality. You don't know how many times I have had CA tell me, they went through it. Everyone has to go through it. No exceptions. Even raising new hire pay to a livable level is a non starter for some. I went through it, so will you. Suck it up. Your turn will come. Blah blah blah.

My point? Having special entry pay would probably really get this group worked up. I just ran into a new hire that is 48. He's doing it. He left a 6 figure job. I left a 6 figure job as well.

Unfortunately that is what you have to do to get this job.

Notice I too have lowered my expectations to get a job. Why? I was competing for a job at AC. I am no different than the GGN, SKV or Encore pilots. We are all the same.

Competition among pilots for work is a seriously flawed concept. We should be seeking to further limit it, not expand it.

As DP says. It would turn into Anarchy.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by CanadianEh »

My better half is a nurse and the way their union has things structured makes a lot of sense to me. Their compensation and vacation (plus other benefits) are based on hours worked and can be transferred from province to province. I forget the exact figures but it's something like 0-1900 hours worked = $30 an hour and 2 weeks vacation, 1900-3000 hours worked = $33 an hour and 3 weeks vacation, etc.

What they have managed to do is put their differences aside even though nursing can be similar to being a pilot in that some nursing jobs "have more responsibility" or "are more difficult". If you are an Emergency OR Nurse in downtown YYZ, with 1900-3000 hours of time spent in the profession, you get as much as the Nurse working in a rural area with dialysis patients.

We don't have to reinvent the wheel here, other professions have models that work.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by rudder »

The 'floating pilot' concept only works in tandem with a 'hiring hall' model that controls 100% of pilot supply and sets the compensation. That is a long ways away.

In the meantime ................CALPA.

One tent. One voice. And ironclad minimum WAWCON or no contract is signed. Pilots that choose to work for non-union employers can spend the rest of their careers there. Closed shops such that the collective agreement requires that only CALPA members be hired (employers still get to decide which pilots). CALPA therefore determines by its own Constitution which pilots can be offered membership/associate membership and those that can be excluded.

Other unions do it. It is legal.

Until we control supply, pilots will always be treated as a 'controllable cost' and therefore used to create a competitive cost advantage between air carriers.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote:The 'floating pilot' concept only works in tandem with a 'hiring hall' model that controls 100% of pilot supply and sets the compensation. That is a long ways away.

In the meantime ................CALPA.

One tent. One voice. And ironclad minimum WAWCON or no contract is signed. Pilots that choose to work for non-union employers can spend the rest of their careers there. Closed shops such that the collective agreement requires that only CALPA members be hired (employers still get to decide which pilots). CALPA therefore determines by its own Constitution which pilots can be offered membership/associate membership and those that can be excluded.

Other unions do it. It is legal.

Until we control supply, pilots will always be treated as a 'controllable cost' and therefore used to create a competitive cost advantage between air carriers.
That I like!
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by fish4life »

CanadianEh wrote:My better half is a nurse and the way their union has things structured makes a lot of sense to me. Their compensation and vacation (plus other benefits) are based on hours worked and can be transferred from province to province. I forget the exact figures but it's something like 0-1900 hours worked = $30 an hour and 2 weeks vacation, 1900-3000 hours worked = $33 an hour and 3 weeks vacation, etc.

What they have managed to do is put their differences aside even though nursing can be similar to being a pilot in that some nursing jobs "have more responsibility" or "are more difficult". If you are an Emergency OR Nurse in downtown YYZ, with 1900-3000 hours of time spent in the profession, you get as much as the Nurse working in a rural area with dialysis patients.

We don't have to reinvent the wheel here, other professions have models that work.
I believe there is a college of nurses though
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by dukepoint »

Perhaps I'm not being fair to Anonymity............

Would you care to share your proposal on how an "experienced based" model would work?

Let's assume that a company just acquired 20 737's..........how would they man that operation without a seniority based system. You need not go into detail, only the basics, so we can all understand how well it would work. To throw in a bit of a wrench, let's say the same company purchased 10 767's five years after start-up. How would they crew those widebodys using your model???

If you don't want to give it a crack, Anonymity.......perhaps someone else might???

Teacher, Localizer........want to give it a shot?

Cheers, DP.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by dukepoint »

Come on guys! There is so much chatter on this forum about how seniority based systems are ruining the profession. Propose some other viable alternatives with details.

We're all ears.....

DP.
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Re: May 1 startup day Air Georgian

Post by Gino Under »

DB

Keep your seniority system. Carve it deeper into the millstone around everyone's neck. But...

If you put me on that seniority list as a junior F/O, then you have to pay me 1st year B777 Captain pay which would be commensurate with my qualifications and experience. How the union and the company choose to utilize the package I have on offer is up to them.

If that doesn't work for you, I can tell you $40,000 as a junior F/O doesn't work for me. It did about 35 years ago when I had SFA to offer but like the times, things have changed.
It was mentioned earlier in this discussion, that "slide into the gutter." Well, if you choose to ignore the individual's qualifications and experience you only grease the slide. Therefore the finger points to ACPA, doesn't it?

Good luck to you and your airline. I'm sure experience or the lack thereof will continue to be rendered irrelevant either way by virtue of yours and others stand on seniority and strict adherence to SOP as a guarantee of a safe and efficient operation. Because, for some, some foolishly believe SOP is the be all and the end all.

What a fool believes...

Gino Under :smt023
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