Our turn to strike ?

[Invertago]

Claude, is that you ?

Nope. Besides your difficulty in writing full and coherent sentences, you have little understanding of the fundamental principle of trade unions: that we are stronger when we speak with one voice. If you're off pursuing your own agenda, management notices and will not respect your union leadership affecting their ability to advocate on your behalf. You don't like how your union is being run? No problem. Go to a union meeting, volunteer on a committee, put forward motions, run for election. Spend your time for the betterment of your colleagues. Instead you put your ignorance on full display by going on line and sniping from the sidelines at your colleagues who are volunteering their time to advance YOUR career.

Typical bend over mentality. Canadian pilots will never have what the rest of the world has. Some of you guys are hopeless and deserve every inch of it, the rest of us are the ones who are paying the price.

Thanks for your insightful contribution Fullflaps. Anyways, what I would suggest you guys do is draft a letter of petition, get it, signed by lots of pilots and present it to the union indicating the desire to strike. That would be one way to get the ball, rolling and push the issue with the union.

[Crewbunk]

Nope. Besides your difficulty in writing full and coherent sentences, you have little understanding of the fundamental principle of trade unions: that we are stronger when we speak with one voice. If you're off pursuing your own agenda, management notices and will not respect your union leadership affecting their ability to advocate on your behalf. You don't like how your union is being run? No problem. Go to a union meeting, volunteer on a committee, put forward motions, run for election. Spend your time for the betterment of your colleagues. Instead you put your ignorance on full display by going on line and sniping from the sidelines at your colleagues who are volunteering their time to advance YOUR career.

Typical bend over mentality. Canadian pilots will never have what the rest of the world has. Some of you guys are hopeless and deserve every inch of it, the rest of us are the ones who are paying the price.

Thanks for your insightful contribution Fullflaps. Anyways, what I would suggest you guys do is draft a letter of petition, get it, signed by lots of pilots and present it to the union indicating the desire to strike. That would be one way to get the ball, rolling and push the issue with the union.

Exactly.

What Bede is saying is don’t sit on the sideline sniping at people, get off your ass and do something. The facility is there within a union to make a difference.

And, as stated above, start with a petition. Or attend the meetings. Stand up, state your case. Odds are, you don’t think alone and that’s how movements get started. If one area bothers you, join that committee. Be noisy, but not on a forum where it makes no difference.

It will help your fellow pilots and it will help YOU.

[rudder]

Typical bend over mentality. Canadian pilots will never have what the rest of the world has. Some of you guys are hopeless and deserve every inch of it, the rest of us are the ones who are paying the price.

Thanks for your insightful contribution Fullflaps. Anyways, what I would suggest you guys do is draft a letter of petition, get it, signed by lots of pilots and present it to the union indicating the desire to strike. That would be one way to get the ball, rolling and push the issue with the union.

Exactly.

What Bede is saying is don’t sit on the sideline sniping at people, get off your ass and do something. The facility is there within a union to make a difference.

And, as stated above, start with a petition. Or attend the meetings. Stand up, state your case. Odds are, you don’t think alone and that’s how movements get started. If one area bothers you, join that committee. Be noisy, but not on a forum where it makes no difference.

It will help your fellow pilots and it will help YOU.

Elected reps set policy and direction. They also elect the Executive and populate all of the committees.

If you keep electing the same reps you will just keep getting the same results. How many years have some of these ‘volunteers’ been in charge?

While I do not envy them their counterparty, it is the job of the representatives to lead. That includes any dealings with the employer. This group has gone down too many employer constructed rabbit holes where the Jazz pilots are stuck with the less desirable features of the CBA and seemingly unable to enforce the benefits that were negotiated in exchange.

This MEC told the pilot group that the problem of contract duration with no open period for compensation adjustment and poor compensation rates for entry level Jazz pilots would ‘fix itself’.

How is that working? And how many Jazz pilots feel that their job is ‘secure’ in 2023?

[Bede]

Claude, is that you ?

Nope. Besides your difficulty in writing full and coherent sentences, you have little understanding of the fundamental principle of trade unions: that we are stronger when we speak with one voice. If you're off pursuing your own agenda, management notices and will not respect your union leadership affecting their ability to advocate on your behalf. You don't like how your union is being run? No problem. Go to a union meeting, volunteer on a committee, put forward motions, run for election. Spend your time for the betterment of your colleagues. Instead you put your ignorance on full display by going on line and sniping from the sidelines at your colleagues who are volunteering their time to advance YOUR career.

Typical bend over mentality. Canadian pilots will never have what the rest of the world has. Some of you guys are hopeless and deserve every inch of it, the rest of us are the ones who are paying the price.

Yes because volunteering for a union is bending over.

Glad you learned how to string a coherent sentence together. Good luck profiting off other peoples hard work.

[Fullflaps]

Nope. Besides your difficulty in writing full and coherent sentences, you have little understanding of the fundamental principle of trade unions: that we are stronger when we speak with one voice. If you're off pursuing your own agenda, management notices and will not respect your union leadership affecting their ability to advocate on your behalf. You don't like how your union is being run? No problem. Go to a union meeting, volunteer on a committee, put forward motions, run for election. Spend your time for the betterment of your colleagues. Instead you put your ignorance on full display by going on line and sniping from the sidelines at your colleagues who are volunteering their time to advance YOUR career.

Typical bend over mentality. Canadian pilots will never have what the rest of the world has. Some of you guys are hopeless and deserve every inch of it, the rest of us are the ones who are paying the price.

Yes because volunteering for a union is bending over.

Glad you learned how to string a coherent sentence together. Good luck profiting off other peoples hard work.

Bend over yessir keyboard warrior by day, grammar teacher by night.. and the plot thickens

[truedude]

Typical bend over mentality. Canadian pilots will never have what the rest of the world has. Some of you guys are hopeless and deserve every inch of it, the rest of us are the ones who are paying the price.

Yes because volunteering for a union is bending over.

Glad you learned how to string a coherent sentence together. Good luck profiting off other peoples hard work.

Bend over yessir keyboard warrior by day, grammar teacher by night.. and the plot thickens

You are an embarrassment, not only to Jazz pilots, but to the profession. Everytime you post something, your ignorance and entitlement is on full display.

We can't strike because we are operating under a contract, and do not meet any of the criteria required to strike under the labour code. Yes, the company is in violation of a section, and a grievance has been filed.

But you are getting paid, as per the contract. Your sick bank was topped up, as per the contract. Your perdiams are being paid, as per the contract. The list goes on. Just becauae they violate one section does not give an employee group the right to go full anarchist.

And oh, you get to book off if you don't feel "fit" and you are protected by the contract and union. If you had experience working at other places, you would know that is not the case everywhere.

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Yes because volunteering for a union is bending over.

Glad you learned how to string a coherent sentence together. Good luck profiting off other peoples hard work.

Bend over yessir keyboard warrior by day, grammar teacher by night.. and the plot thickens

You are an embarrassment, not only to Jazz pilots, but to the profession. Everytime you post something, your ignorance and entitlement is on full display.

We can't strike because we are operating under a contract, and do not meet any of the criteria required to strike under the labour code. Yes, the company is in violation of a section, and a grievance has been filed.

But you are getting paid, as per the contract. Your sick bank was topped up, as per the contract. Your perdiams are being paid, as per the contract. The list goes on. Just becauae they violate one section does not give an employee group to go full anarchist.

And oh, you get to book off if you don't feel "fit" and you are protected by the contract and union. If you had experience working at other places, you would know that is not the case everywhere.

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

Good point, and no you can’t just go full strike mode because the company is not following a number items in the contract. However, I understand the frustration of many pilots including myself with lack of immediate repercussions for contract breaches.

Another point of frustration is the pay, and despite having a great contract, you can’t pay a mortgage with dental or massage benefits. No immediate progress has been made with pay either, which is even more difficult to understand when encore got a temporary pay increase and will be negotiating a new contract very soon.

Overall, the only thing you can really do is vote with your feet, because your pay will improve much quicker by leaving then waiting for a miracle. Anywhere you go will result in a pay increase. With an atpl you have your pick too: Transat, Westjet, Flair, Lynx, and even Encore. I would say AC but the flow is not being honoured.

[truedude]

Bend over yessir keyboard warrior by day, grammar teacher by night.. and the plot thickens

You are an embarrassment, not only to Jazz pilots, but to the profession. Everytime you post something, your ignorance and entitlement is on full display.

We can't strike because we are operating under a contract, and do not meet any of the criteria required to strike under the labour code. Yes, the company is in violation of a section, and a grievance has been filed.

But you are getting paid, as per the contract. Your sick bank was topped up, as per the contract. Your perdiams are being paid, as per the contract. The list goes on. Just becauae they violate one section does not give an employee group to go full anarchist.

And oh, you get to book off if you don't feel "fit" and you are protected by the contract and union. If you had experience working at other places, you would know that is not the case everywhere.

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

Good point, and no you can’t just go full strike mode because the company is not following a number items in the contract. However, I understand the frustration of many pilots including myself with lack of immediate repercussions for contract breaches.

Another point of frustration is the pay, and despite having a great contract, you can’t pay a mortgage with dental or massage benefits. No immediate progress has been made with pay either, which is even more difficult to understand when encore got a temporary pay increase and will be negotiating a new contract very soon.

Overall, the only thing you can really do is vote with your feet, because your pay will improve much quicker by leaving then waiting for a miracle. Anywhere you go will result in a pay increase. With an atpl you have your pick too: Transat, Westjet, Flair, Lynx, and even Encore. I would say AC but the flow is not being honoured.

I doubt you will find a single Jazz pilot that doesn't wholeheartedly agree with everything you have said.

[Bede]

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

I worked at Jazz. You are right about that. The pay stinks but the rest of the contract is quite mature.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

I worked at Jazz. You are right about that. The pay stinks but the rest of the contract is quite mature.

A mature contract that the company picks and chooses what they want to follow with little repercussion. Recommendation is that it’s only a good place to come if you are a flight instructor with no ATPL….once you get the ATPL leave. Don’t waste your time on false promises of a job at AC. It’s a trap!

[airbussy]

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

I worked at Jazz. You are right about that. The pay stinks but the rest of the contract is quite mature.

A mature contract that the company picks and chooses what they want to follow with little repercussion. Recommendation is that it’s only a good place to come if you are a flight instructor with no ATPL….once you get the ATPL leave. Don’t waste your time on false promises of a job at AC. It’s a trap!

I worked at Jazz for 4 years before going to AC. It is 100% a better contract in every way except for pay, and I disagree with your implication that they just ignore parts of the agreement. I never had an issue at Jazz with my collective rights, in fact I found the managers and Chief Pilot I reported to, to be respectful and good leaders. However I did leave before this whole "flow hiring" debacle so I can understand why some may be frustrated.

[Fullflaps]

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

I worked at Jazz. You are right about that. The pay stinks but the rest of the contract is quite mature.

A mature contract that the company picks and chooses what they want to follow with little repercussion. Recommendation is that it’s only a good place to come if you are a flight instructor with no ATPL….once you get the ATPL leave. Don’t waste your time on false promises of a job at AC. It’s a trap!

Right on !

[Fullflaps]

Yes because volunteering for a union is bending over.

Glad you learned how to string a coherent sentence together. Good luck profiting off other peoples hard work.

Bend over yessir keyboard warrior by day, grammar teacher by night.. and the plot thickens

You are an embarrassment, not only to Jazz pilots, but to the profession. Everytime you post something, your ignorance and entitlement is on full display.

We can't strike because we are operating under a contract, and do not meet any of the criteria required to strike under the labour code. Yes, the company is in violation of a section, and a grievance has been filed.

But you are getting paid, as per the contract. Your sick bank was topped up, as per the contract. Your perdiams are being paid, as per the contract. The list goes on. Just becauae they violate one section does not give an employee group the right to go full anarchist.

And oh, you get to book off if you don't feel "fit" and you are protected by the contract and union. If you had experience working at other places, you would know that is not the case everywhere.

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

The flow is part of it ? The 60% flow IS the contract ! There is no contract without the 60% flow lol. The flow to AC is the reason the payscale is so low, it is the reason the contract has a 17 year term, everything major in the contract revolves around that flow ! Taking it away the is like removing the foundation from underneath a house, you think the rest of the walls will still be standing ? Not only it is affecting all the ones who already go into AC from jazz, but also the ones waiting. They are robbed of hundreds of seniority, which affects payscale, postion, base etc.. and thats FOR LIFE ! Seniority is not everything in these companies, it is the ONLY thing, and they just took it away from hundreds of pilots who signed on that 'contract'. That s not even counting the ramifications on the ones who decided to stay at jazz. What do you think would have happen if they have kept honoring the 60% flow ? Jazz would have ALREADY came up with a better payscale to retain and attract new pilots ! Without the need to beg for it. So yes, the flow IS the contract, make no mistake, we are under no contract now, take your acupuncture and massages we dont want them. Put an investigator to make sure no one is screwing the LTD system. But guess why jazz's MEC will never do that lol. Ill leave it to u to figure that part out. I ll say it again in case you missed it, Jazz pilots are operating under NO contract, hence the requirements for a strike are met, no matter how much some spineless pro ALPA stoogies keyboard warriors here love to wave around the canadian labour code.

[Outlaw58]

If you have been here for 5 years or less, you really should be looking elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPxBKxU8GIQ

[flyinhigh]

Bend over yessir keyboard warrior by day, grammar teacher by night.. and the plot thickens

You are an embarrassment, not only to Jazz pilots, but to the profession. Everytime you post something, your ignorance and entitlement is on full display.

We can't strike because we are operating under a contract, and do not meet any of the criteria required to strike under the labour code. Yes, the company is in violation of a section, and a grievance has been filed.

But you are getting paid, as per the contract. Your sick bank was topped up, as per the contract. Your perdiams are being paid, as per the contract. The list goes on. Just becauae they violate one section does not give an employee group the right to go full anarchist.

And oh, you get to book off if you don't feel "fit" and you are protected by the contract and union. If you had experience working at other places, you would know that is not the case everywhere.

Aside from pay, which is pathetic, the Jazz contract is a world class contract. Hopefully the last piece of the puzzle comes together sooner than later.

The flow is part of it ? The 60% flow IS the contract ! There is no contract without the 60% flow lol. The flow to AC is the reason the payscale is so low, it is the reason the contract has a 17 year term, everything major in the contract revolves around that flow ! Taking it away the is like removing the foundation from underneath a house, you think the rest of the walls will still be standing ? Not only it is affecting all the ones who already go into AC from jazz, but also the ones waiting. They are robbed of hundreds of seniority, which affects payscale, postion, base etc.. and thats FOR LIFE ! Seniority is not everything in these companies, it is the ONLY thing, and they just took it away from hundreds of pilots who signed on that 'contract'. That s not even counting the ramifications on the ones who decided to stay at jazz. What do you think would have happen if they have kept honoring the 60% flow ? Jazz would have ALREADY came up with a better payscale to retain and attract new pilots ! Without the need to beg for it. So yes, the flow IS the contract, make no mistake, we are under no contract now, take your acupuncture and massages we dont want them. Put an investigator to make sure no one is screwing the LTD system. But guess why jazz's MEC will never do that lol. Ill leave it to u to figure that part out. I ll say it again in case you missed it, Jazz pilots are operating under NO contract, hence the requirements for a strike are met, no matter how much some spineless pro ALPA stoogies keyboard warriors here love to wave around the canadian labour code.

Then pay $40 to buy one of the WestJet strike signs, throw your uniform on and go carry said sign outside Pearson. Oh, don’t collect a paycheque and see what case law will say to that.

Per the agreement, the correct avenues to correct a contract violation are being followed.

[canadian_aviator_4]

From the union whenever you approach them regarding flow, be it the mec, lec chairs or anyone else involved they don’t seem to have much urgency towards resolving the flow issue. They indicate a grievance was filed, but don’t know much else. The company is the exact same, indicating Air Canada is hiring jazz pilots, and not much more.

So there is a lot of frustration over the appearance of a lack of concern, along with no communication regarding flow. And subsequent emails from the mec indicating that jazz has an uncertain future.

A petition mentioned earlier would at least capture the attention of leadership, both from union and company standpoint, to possibly give us more answers and push for more urgency. Another idea is for anyone unhappy here to approach company and union leadership and requesting more information regarding the flow issue. I have done this many times already.

Unfortunately in the end it may be quicker to take advantage of the ‘Jazz-Westjet flow program’.

[Nick678]

From the union whenever you approach them regarding flow, be it the mec, lec chairs or anyone else involved they don’t seem to have much urgency towards resolving the flow issue. They indicate a grievance was filed, but don’t know much else. The company is the exact same, indicating Air Canada is hiring jazz pilots, and not much more.

So there is a lot of frustration over the appearance of a lack of concern, along with no communication regarding flow. And subsequent emails from the mec indicating that jazz has an uncertain future.

A petition mentioned earlier would at least capture the attention of leadership, both from union and company standpoint, to possibly give us more answers and push for more urgency. Another idea is for anyone unhappy here to approach company and union leadership and requesting more information regarding the flow issue. I have done this many times already.

Unfortunately in the end it may be quicker to take advantage of the ‘Jazz-Westjet flow program’.

Consensus I’ve gathered from the line suggests the grievance will be dropped and the flow rate will be modified to a lower percentage to support wage increases. The survey showed a majority favouring this approach and it’s just a matter of how much the company is willing to pay, currently not enough.

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

[airbussy]

From the union whenever you approach them regarding flow, be it the mec, lec chairs or anyone else involved they don’t seem to have much urgency towards resolving the flow issue.

Why should they though? It wasn't really negotiated, it was thrown in at the end of the deal in 2019. And it's not a unions job to get you a job somwhere else. Their main legal requirement as a bargaining agent is to protect the jobs they represent and push for better wages and working conditions. Why fix AC and Jazz's flow issue for them? Make them pay.

[canadian_aviator_4]

From the union whenever you approach them regarding flow, be it the mec, lec chairs or anyone else involved they don’t seem to have much urgency towards resolving the flow issue. They indicate a grievance was filed, but don’t know much else. The company is the exact same, indicating Air Canada is hiring jazz pilots, and not much more.

So there is a lot of frustration over the appearance of a lack of concern, along with no communication regarding flow. And subsequent emails from the mec indicating that jazz has an uncertain future.

A petition mentioned earlier would at least capture the attention of leadership, both from union and company standpoint, to possibly give us more answers and push for more urgency. Another idea is for anyone unhappy here to approach company and union leadership and requesting more information regarding the flow issue. I have done this many times already.

Unfortunately in the end it may be quicker to take advantage of the ‘Jazz-Westjet flow program’.

Consensus I’ve gathered from the line suggests the grievance will be dropped and the flow rate will be modified to a lower percentage to support wage increases. The survey showed a majority favouring this approach and it’s just a matter of how much the company is willing to pay, currently not enough.

This is obviously flawed but the senior guys don’t care about flow and that’s our MEC. The last guy I flew with really wanted a new boat.

None of this is 100% verified except the boat part.

Dropping the grievance would be ignoring the damage Jazz and Air Canada have done to the careers of many pilots at Jazz aspiring to go to Air Canada. Far from fair, but not surprising if that is what senior pilots want.

[goleafsgo]

Can’t just say that jazz has no contract in place because one part isn’t being followed and that jazz pilots can strike because of that. That would still be an illegal strike because there still is a contract in place. When something in a contract isn’t being followed it goes through the grievance process. That’s how this all works

[airbussy]

Dropping the grievance would be ignoring the damage Jazz and Air Canada have done to the careers of many pilots at Jazz aspiring to go to Air Canada. Far from fair, but not surprising if that is what senior pilots want.

It's not really about "what Sr pilots want" it's about improving the Jazz WAWCON. Which is Jazz ALPA's main responsibility. It's not Jazz ALPAs responsibility to get pilots a job at Air Canada. Nothing in life is guaranteed, and even the current level of "flow" is better than we saw pre 2015 and from 2016-2018. My career was delayed too because AC started hiring more Encore pilots than Jazz pilots for quite a while. But that's life.

The amount of entitlement coming from Jr Jazz pilots is quite interesting.

[airbussy]

Can’t just say that jazz has no contract in place because one part isn’t being followed and that jazz pilots can strike because of that. That would still be an illegal strike because there still is a contract in place. When something in a contract isn’t being followed it goes through the grievance process. That’s how this all works

It's the instant gratification generation. They wan't it NOW.

[Nick678]

Can’t just say that jazz has no contract in place because one part isn’t being followed and that jazz pilots can strike because of that. That would still be an illegal strike because there still is a contract in place. When something in a contract isn’t being followed it goes through the grievance process. That’s how this all works

You should ask anyone in the MEC how that grievance is going…. I doubt they ever filed it.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Can’t just say that jazz has no contract in place because one part isn’t being followed and that jazz pilots can strike because of that. That would still be an illegal strike because there still is a contract in place. When something in a contract isn’t being followed it goes through the grievance process. That’s how this all works

You should ask anyone in the MEC how that grievance is going…. I doubt they ever filed it.

I think legally if a single member brings up the issue it has to be grieved. These things take time. And in this case, most likely all the way down the process list in terms of time. Arbitrator at the very least. I would expect the better part of a year, possibly longer. Welcome to the red tape

[truedude]

Can’t just say that jazz has no contract in place because one part isn’t being followed and that jazz pilots can strike because of that. That would still be an illegal strike because there still is a contract in place. When something in a contract isn’t being followed it goes through the grievance process. That’s how this all works

You should ask anyone in the MEC how that grievance is going…. I doubt they ever filed it.

I think legally if a single member brings up the issue it has to be grieved. These things take time. And in this case, most likely all the way down the process list in terms of time. Arbitrator at the very least. I would expect the better part of a year, possibly longer. Welcome to the red tape

It is the wait on the arbitrator that will be the issue. There is a long que, and our MEC is trying to get it fast tracked.