Too tired for take-off (Globe & Mail)

[Rotten Apple #1]

Rockie, if your airline has a problem with fatigued pilots, then by all means do something about it. That's why I'm glad I'm no longer flying around in the A310 (Royal)/A330 (Canada3000). I'm not tired anymore, save for the odd redeye, or YYT/YHZ early wakeup. In any case, you can make what you will of my schedule. Or me. I couldn't give two rats. Hmmm, a selfish pilot,...noooo!?!

I know I got it way better than I did after Canada 3000 shutdown and I painted walls and renovated for a year and a bit. (I know, that story probably gets old for some of you).

Anyway...beer's on me.

John Swallow

[Rockie]

Jonny

Does the WJPA agree with and support ACPA and ALPA in their effort to have Transport Canada update the F&DT regulations?

If they do...why?
If they do not...why not?

[snaproll20]

There is an interesting book written by a Vancouver researcher which clearly identifies that sleep deprivation is a cumulative state. Flying an aircraft on duty times, odd hours, circadian challenges, etc. is only one facet of sleep deprivation which modern society engages in. If we find something we MUST do which will take 30 minutes, we either go to bed 30 minutes later, or get up 30 minutes earlier to cope.
The result is that most of society is sleep-deprived and living on time-overdraft.

[Mig29]

The problem is not so much in CAR 705 as in 703 or 704 operations where the staffing levels per aircraft are very low.

OFD

That is very true, and I think the majority of incidents/accidents do fall into that category...We can't compare fatigue levels of a senior 777 pilot flying 3-4 overseas trips a month to a KingAir or Dash-8 guy doing up to 8 approaches in marginal IFR weather with minimum turns that don't suffice even for basic physiological needs and all that with short rest times between pairings.

[ivanhoe]

Does'nt sound like this guy is losing any sleep...



I've been on the A320 for the past 7 years. For the last couple of years, this is my typical pairing:

I do an early morning deadhead from Toronto to Varadero, Cuba. I then sit two days on the beach, followed by a 6+ hours flight to Calgary. Short layover in Calgary, and deadhead back to Toronto. Repeat again the following week, with the occassional Barbados layover thrown into the mix.



Point is...ya gotta take the good with the bad. Its always been that way in this business due in a large part to the contracts negotiated by the pilots themselves. It seems a little disengenuous to me that those same pilots complain about working too hard and long.

[Rockie]

There's always someone with a good schedule. Air Canada has some guys who by virtue of their seniority work monday, wednesday and friday from 9 AM to 5 PM. Does that make our regulations safe because they don't have to work to them?

This is a safety issue and it is completely legal not only to schedule a two person crew for 14 hours and 6 sectors starting at midnight, but that same crew can extend to 17 hours if they wish. I have done some ferociously bad all nighters in my time where I was not safe even halfway through it. But it was completely legal. There is absolutely no consideration given to human factors, or just plain common sense in Canada's F&DT regulations.

[CD]

AvCanada: Fatigue Research

[moreccsplease]

Unfortunately, the only unions/associations that you ever hear comment about making safety better for ALL Canadian pilots in this entire Canadian aviation industry is ALPA (Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l), ACPA (Air Canada Pilots Association), and CFPA (Canadian Federal Pilots Association). Sadly, WJPA (Westjet Pilots Association) doesn't seem to want to join in and help with making this industry safer by standing up for all pilots by changing the CARs, representing pilots in the media, and funding studies on safety... or at least we never hear about it.

I challenge the WJPA to stand up and unite with ACPA, ALPA and CFPA, all four together represent, what, 6,000 pilots in Canada... or more? All three together could force positive change for every pilot in this country by way of lobbying for better regulations.

I want to add that I said the above comments with respect to the WJPA... any group that represents pilots as a whole is better than none, but all of us together are unstoppable.

[corytrevor]

The author (media) finally gets it right. Thank you. To any of you who dispute that pilot fatigue happens, wake me up, then ********.

[Rockie]

More deafening silence from the Westjet crowd on this issue. I am not on a WJ bash here, but pilots in this country have been struggling to no effect for decades trying to get our non-regulating regulator to do something about our archaic F&DT regulations. Westjet pilots have been a non-participant in that struggle and I think it's about time they took ownership for it, because on this issue if you aren't helping then you are part of the problem by enabling TC's inaction.

So once again here is a chance for Westjetters to clear the air and either advocate change or stand up proudly for Canada's current regulations.

Does the WJPA agree with and support ACPA and ALPA in their effort to have Transport Canada update the F&DT regulations?

If they do...why, and what are they doing about it?
If they do not...why not?

[CD]

There is an interesting book written by a Vancouver researcher which clearly identifies that sleep deprivation is a cumulative state. Flying an aircraft on duty times, odd hours, circadian challenges, etc. is only one facet of sleep deprivation which modern society engages in. If we find something we MUST do which will take 30 minutes, we either go to bed 30 minutes later, or get up 30 minutes earlier to cope.
The result is that most of society is sleep-deprived and living on time-overdraft.

Hey snaproll20...

Is the book you're thinking of Sleep Thieves by Stanley Coren? It's been a few years but it sounds like his work. Here is an excerpt from his book:

Excerpted from "Sleep Thieves":

Take the typical case of one truck driver named Joe.

"Now what used to happen on long hauls or circle hauls is that you started pretty fresh, but after a week or so of this kind of schedule you were tired all of the time. It got to the point where I could fall asleep sitting on the john in the men's room in a gas station. But then, somehow, in the morning, even without any sleep, you felt OK again, at least for a few hours.

"The fatigue thing would get pretty bad toward the end of a haul. It would get really bad when there was nothing going on--like crossing through Kansas where there is nothing but flat farms all growing wheat or corn. Nothing to see but the road and the fields. My truck has a CB radio, and talking to the other guys helps some. I also have the radio and a built in tape recorder. I used to take these 'books on tape' out of the library, that's where some guy reads a book for you, and listening to the stories helped keep me awake some. But even with all that I still had some pretty close misses that started to scare me.

"Probably the weirdest was when I was doing this cross country job. I was heading west or maybe southwest and getting pretty near to Salt Lake City. Coming on in that direction you go down this highway that crosses through the salt flats, and I'll tell you calling them flats is a good description. In the summer it looks like a big flat empty parking lot out there. It was, maybe, around 3 or 4 am and I was really tired and I'd been tired for days on that run. At night, out there, there is no lights, and all you've got is what you see in your headlights. Damn little other traffic either. I would sort of line myself up on the white line down the middle of the road. Since there was no other traffic it didn't matter much, and it gave me something to look at. Anyway I'm tooling along at the speed limit watching the road and the next thing I know the road is feeling sort of bumpy, and sounding noisy, like I was going over gravel or an uneven road surface. I look at the road and there's no white line in sight. I figure to myself, 'They're repairing the road', so I go on for another couple of minutes but nothing changes. So I go to pull off to the side of the road, but there are no shoulders. I got really spooked. I stop the truck and put on my flashers in case someone comes down the highway, and I get out the cab. I'm looking around and I'm seeing nothing. No road, no lights, no signs, just nothing. It's like I'm parked on this big flat airfield.

"Now I'm not superstitious or nothing, but I started to think of one of the 'Twilight Zone' spook shows where this guy finds himself in the middle of nowhere and it turns out that he has landed in Hell. Well that's what it felt like. So I said to myself, 'I'll just leave the lights flashing and rest until morning when it will be light enough to see.' I crawl back into the cab, get into the bunk, and just fall asleep. Next thing I know there is this pounding on the side of the truck. When I get out its daylight and there is the highway patrol cop standing there. 'What the hell you doin' out here?' he asks. 'Out where?' I asked, feeling pretty stupid. 'Look it, you're nearly 10 miles off the highway in the middle of the flats. The patrol plane spotted your lights flashing', he says.

"The only thing that I can figure is that I fell asleep, drove off of the road and just kept on driving. It made me real scared to think that if I had been somewhere where there was traffic or houses or things on the side of the road I could have killed someone and myself too. I mean there I was 10 miles in the middle of nowhere. If the cops hadn't spotted me with that road patrol plane I could have just got up in the morning, not knowed where I was, and driven off in the wrong direction. You sure couldn't see any road from where I was, and every direction looked just the same. If I got stuck out there, without fuel, I hate to think about it. Lot's of people have died out in deserts like that and I figure that no one would ever bother looking for an eighteen wheeler out in the middle of the salt flats even if someone ever did report me missing."

[JMACK]

The captain, worn out from an irregular schedule and a fitful sleep, had twice allowed the plane to slow so much that it was on the verge of stalling.

OK, I can understand how fatigue could lead to one stall. But twice in one flight? This guy must either have a death wish or an adrenaline deficiency or something...

After hearing stories like this and the Colgan disaster we obviously need extreme action. I move that in addition to stick-shakers all airlines be equipped with JATO bottles which deploy automatically on the first stall, causing expensive (i.e. resume-generating) maintenance costs.

Immediately after the rockets burn out the airplane should repeatedly yell at the pilot in an angry voice "If you do that again I will kill you!" That ought to be enough to prevent a second stall.[/quote]

OOps

RV I know there is tongue in cheek in your post but just in case you are interested. If you get behind the drag curve up high like above FL350 give or take your can go max thrust depending on the aircraft of course and still not be able to maintain alt and regain air speed. There just is not enough smash left in the engines up there. So if you are a bit tired a bit pooped or it has just been 6 months 12 months or 18 months since the last time you thought about high alt stalls you might flub the first one maybe the second but then you will remember and you will start down to regain energy.

Anyway just in case you were wondering, it is diff from stalling an airplane in the thicker air down below.

Jim

[ivanhoe]

[quote="Rockie"]More deafening silence from the Westjet crowd on this issue.


It's because we're too busy working...

[Martin Tamme]

Since the intrepid writer of this article is here and involved in this discussion, I will put forth another interesting piece of information. Feel free to confirm this with your other sources, as a matter of fact, I insist. Ask 10 Transport Canada Inspectors what constitutes “unforeseen operational circumstances” (which allow us to exceed our 14 hour work day, in some cases to become a 17 hour duty day… and remember a duty day is usually from 1 hour prior to scheduled wheels up to 15 minutes after landing) and you will receive 10 different answers.

Would you believe that the CARs Guidance material actually contained the definition of "Unforeseen Operational Circumstances"? I say contained, because through the lobbying efforts of ATAC, Transport Canada removed the clauses in 2007.

I was on the ACPA MEC when this happened. Nevertheless, I still have a copy of an official letter, dated December 22nd 2004, and signed by Michel Gaudreau -Transport Canada Director of Commercial & Business Aviation- confirming the passages below.

Why did ATAC lobby so hard to have them removed? Because safety costs money - and ATAC represents those who are in the business of making money.


Anyways, if anybody wants to have a glance of the regulations as they were printed prior to being removed, here they are:



S740.17 Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

700.17 The maximum flight time referred to in paragraphs 700.15(1)(a) to (e) and the maximum flight duty time referred to in subsection 700.16(1) may be exceeded if

(a) the flight is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances;
(b) the pilot-in-command, after consultation with the other flight crew members, considers it safe to exceed the maximum flight time and flight duty time; and
(c) the air operator and the pilot-in-command comply with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

To paraphrase: The maximum flight time and the maximum flight duty time may be exceeded if the flight is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances.

The maximum flight time limitations for the 365, 90, 30, and 7 days periods may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that the flight is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances.

The maximum flight duty time of 14 consecutive hours in any 24 consecutive hours may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that the flight is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances.

Flights shall be planned to be completed within the maximum allowable flight time and flight duty time taking into account the time necessary for pre-flight and post-flight duties, the flight or series of flights, forecast weather, turn-around times, and the nature of the operation.

Planning is considered to be unrealistic if the maximum flight time or flight duty time on a particular route is exceeded on more than 10% of occasions where 10 or more flights follow that route in a calendar year.

The air operator shall take appropriate action to ensure that the planning is realistic and the flight or series of flights is completed within the maximum allowable flight time and flight duty time. Flights on routes of less frequency than 10 per year should be dealt with on a case-to-case basis.


The basic principle:

It must be remembered that the definition of “unforeseen operational circumstances” contains two elements;
• it is unforeseen, and;
• it is an operational circumstance.


From CAR 101.01:
"unforeseen operational circumstance" means an event, such as unforecast adverse weather, or an equipment malfunction or air traffic control delay, that is beyond the control of an air operator or private operator;

From the Canadian Oxford Dictionary:
(un)foreseen - (not) be aware of beforehand.
beforehand - in anticipation, in advance

The question that follows is - In anticipation or in advance of what? At what point does an unforeseen circumstance become foreseen?

Transport Canada has chosen the beginning of the flight crew’s duty day as the reference point for determining if a circumstance was unforeseen. The other option would be the beginning of the flight in question (when the aircraft begins to move under its own power).

The beginning of the flight option is felt to be too restrictive because only in the rarest of circumstances would an operational circumstance be unforeseen.

Was the air operator or flight crew member aware of the circumstance before the beginning of the flight duty time period?

If the air operator or flight crew member is aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is not an unforeseen operational circumstance – the maximum flight time or flight duty time cannot be exceeded.

If the air operator or flight crew member is not aware of the circumstance before the flight duty period begins, then it is an unforeseen operational circumstance – the maximum flight duty time can be extended in accordance with CAR 700.17.


What is an "unforeseen operational circumstance”?

Unforeseen operational circumstances relate solely to operational circumstances, which result in delays to a planned schedule. In other words, these circumstances must be crew, weather, aircraft mechanical, ATC or emergency related and must directly affect the operation of the aircraft.

Delaying the departure of a flight to wait for a delayed passenger may have an operational effect on the schedule, but it is not unforeseen operational circumstance.

Unforecast adverse weather – not forecast prior to the beginning of the flight duty time period in question. The winds at altitude turn out to be stronger than forecast, resulting in an en route delay. Those stronger than forecast winds may thus lead to an “unforeseen operational circumstance”.

An equipment malfunction – the aircraft becomes unserviceable resulting in a delay. Assuming that this occurs after the flight duty time period begins then it is unforeseen.

The same would apply for an air traffic control delay that was not foreseen.


An unforeseen operational circumstance cannot cascade from one flight crew’s flight duty time period to another flight crew’s.

Example:

Flight crew Alpha, flying from Vancouver to Toronto, is delayed for two hours because of a mechanical problem discovered before pushback in Vancouver. This is an unforeseen operational circumstance. The same aircraft is scheduled for a flight originating from Toronto, crewed by flight crew Bravo. The two hours Vancouver delay will result in a delay for flight crew Bravo.

Can flight crew Bravo extend their flight duty time because of the Vancouver delay?

No. The air operator is obviously aware of the Vancouver delay before flight crew Bravo begins their flight duty time period. For flight crew Bravo the circumstance is not unforeseen.


What is not an unforeseen operational circumstance?

Delaying an aircraft to wait for connecting passengers. An unforeseen operational circumstance may have been the cause of the delay for the flight of the connecting passengers, but the decision to delay another aircraft for connecting passengers is not an unforeseen operational circumstance. It is a decision made by the air operator.

Adding an additional flight / leg to the day’s schedule – i.e. an unscheduled charter opportunity presents itself or the client decides to add an additional destination to the schedule. These types of events may be unforeseen but they are not operational circumstances. Extensions to the flight time or flight duty time limits are not permitted in these circumstances.

[Martin Tamme]

Does'nt sound like this guy is losing any sleep...



I've been on the A320 for the past 7 years. For the last couple of years, this is my typical pairing:

I do an early morning deadhead from Toronto to Varadero, Cuba. I then sit two days on the beach, followed by a 6+ hours flight to Calgary. Short layover in Calgary, and deadhead back to Toronto. Repeat again the following week, with the occassional Barbados layover thrown into the mix.

That lifestyle is only due to a negotiated agreement. The ACPA Collective Agreement limits one's duty period to 13 hours. As such, it is impossible fly Calgary to Varadero, and back to Calgary within one duty period.

As such, Air Canada has to position a crew in Varadero - so that they can have someone who can legally operate the Calgary - Varadero flights (under the terms of our Collective Agreement - not CARs). The crew that brings the flight into Varadero deadheads back, because they are illegal to operate, again under the terms of our Collective Agreement.

Nevertheless, under the CARs 14-hours duty period, a Calgary - Varadero turn is LEGAL.

Now imagine arriving in Calgary in a snowstorm after being on a 14-hours duty period. Nevertheless, the Westjet & Sunwing pilots do it because they follow CARs and not a more restrictive rule.



P.S. I personally avoid all duty periods over 12 hours, but I am only afforded that privilege due to my seniority.

P.P.S. Now that Westjet does Toronto - Barbados, are the pilots laying over there? Please don't tell me it's a turn.

[Fleet80]

Thanks to the Globe and Mr. Thanh for trying to put a recognizable face to the issue of fatigue in aviation. The example of the Jazz crew may be a bit of a stretch for some here, but nevertheless reality is that everyone with an ounce of sense knows we have a problem, be it young folks working obscene hours in the third tier or old folks going around the world 4 times a month, but the "rules" all say that pilots have to self-regulate within a flawed system! It's Catch-22 (or SMS if you will) and there's no pilot that I know of that suffered an accident or incident that will say he/she felt like crap before check-in. We went to work, ergo we were fit for flight. If we are tired, we are federally regulated, lawfully required to say "I'm tired" and stay home, or book off downline somewhere - if we didn't book off, then we flew illegally. It's Orwellian magic, pilots must be fit to fly, hence all who fly are fit! Within our system, we will never admit to being involved in an incident or accident when fatigued, because most employers would fire us and some jurisdictions would put us in jail if we did. My guess, just pure speculation, but I think the vast, vast majority of "aviation events" occur because one or more of the pilots involved were bagged.
Thank you again for trying to put our industry under a spot-light - we need it, and I hope we read much, much more about fatigue, despite the efforts of our regulators and industry task-matters to deny the elephant in the room.

[the cool one]

Martin;

It is generally accepted knowledge that WJ pilots are a little better than most other Canadian pilots. Based on that fact it stand to reason that they do Barbados turns. After all they are not just pilots.......unlike you they are also owners. Sorry WJ pilots. After a bombardment of tv ads lately I couldn't resist the humor!!!!

The question remain in my mind: are you actually better or is it just a rumor?

Kudos to the Globe writer. I read the article and it is the closest to actual aviation reporting article I have ever read lately.

The cool one

[Jastapilot]

More deafening silence from the Westjet crowd on this issue. I am not on a WJ bash here, but pilots in this country have been struggling to no effect for decades trying to get our non-regulating regulator to do something about our archaic F&DT regulations. Westjet pilots have been a non-participant in that struggle and I think it's about time they took ownership for it, because on this issue if you aren't helping then you are part of the problem by enabling TC's inaction.

So once again here is a chance for Westjetters to clear the air and either advocate change or stand up proudly for Canada's current regulations.

Does the WJPA agree with and support ACPA and ALPA in their effort to have Transport Canada update the F&DT regulations?

If they do...why, and what are they doing about it?
If they do not...why not?

Maybe one of my WJ colleagues can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll go out on a limb, backing on my own experiences and observations: We have are continually addressing and trying to improve our fatigue issues in house. When there were enough safety complaints on the return YYC-YYZ-YYC we dropped the last leg and slept a crew in YYZ, for instance. There have been numerous changes and tweaks to try to help minimize fatigue issues while still being crewed as efficiently as possible. Is it perfect? Have we eliminated all the problems? Nope, it's a work in progress, and probably always will be.

As my esteemed collegue Johnny Dangerous points out, you can be tired at any time at any place... or never(he's a tough guy, what can I say)

I guess I'm glad we're being somewhat proactive, but I'd welcome a well-thought out improvement to the law, especially when it comes to multi-time zone overnights.

PS Rockie, we also dealt with out age 60 guys in house too. Us young guys insisted they had the right to choose when they were done flying, but I guess that's the beauty of not having a senority-driven bidding system.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Okay I'll pop back in here before I head off to work, once again well rested.

No doubt some will have seen this thread on press releases from the world's airline unions this past week.

Perhaps Martin and his colleagues have fatigue issues that they are not able to deal with internally. At WestJet, we already use scientific methods to monitor the situation. It's called submitting reports via our SMS and then having our safety team and Flight operations leadership change/alter pairings as required.

For instance, we don't do standups/continuous duty periods (AFAIK---I never do them), due to fatigue issues. Do ACPA or ALPA pilots in Canada do them? (Legitimate question).

Additionally we stopped doing Redeye-return flights several years ago (i.e. YYC-YYZ (land 6:20 a.m.) and depart immediately back to YYC). Why? Because of a scientific analysis of crew reports via our SMS system.

If ACPA wants to spend more of their membership's dues, and travel to more conferences to accomplish changes to regulations that not all of us need...go for it. Just don't imply you're doing it out of altruism. If that was the case, you would also be fighting for federal fatigue regulations for your Flight Attendants---they have none.

John Swallow

[mattedfred]

John,

ACJ does CD's.

ALPA represents pilots. ALPA does not represent FA's or AME's or ATC or FSS etc. ALPA wants to represent every pilot in the world so we can all work together to make aviation safer. I highly recommend that you attend some of the conferences that you refer to rather than spending more time within your own group. We just might learn something from each other.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Matted,...you give me too much credit. I don't attend WJPA events very often; too busy living my life and working to take time off.

I'll try to get out more often.

BTW, at Royal Airlines, on the A310, I did two 12 day and two 13 day pairings. It's not proof of anything, but it did get me away from my psycho ex for most of the month...

[mattedfred]

by you i meant WJ pilots, sorry

the longest pairing contractually at ACJ is 5 days although they only seem to create 4 dayers

we used to do 6 dayers at AO

however, ACj pilots can work 14 days in a row (i.e. 14 single days or 3 - 4 dayers and a 2 dayer) if all other CAR's and contractual provisions are met

[Rotten Apple #1]

Our schedule is normally 15 days of work a month. 77.5-82.5 hrs of hard time (exluding vacation). Mostly 4 day prgs (limited number of 5 dayers). I'm working a few extra this month 'cause Xmas is coming. And I love FLiCA...

I have booked off for fatigue here at WJ. I went on STD for two days I believe, back in 2004/2005 Missed 2 pairings. The biggest culprit was ripping apart the basement (to the concrete walls) of our house and then tyring to put it back together by myself: I lost a lot of sleep. And that's not something any regulation can provide for.

Nor can it provide for a YYT 6:20 am departure, when I live in BC. You can limit the hours I work during that period, but I'll still be tired on the limo to the airport (5:00 am pick up). So what would keep me less tired for that tekoff? Longer than the 30 hours I already spent on the layover? Add another day to make it 54 hours? No. I''ll just be tired and recognize that and use my years of professional experience to make sure I RIGOROUSLY follow SOPs; and confer with my colleague diligently about any decisions; and use coffee judiciously; and when I get to cruise I'll have a 10-20 minute NASA nap. And finally, we at WJ , but at least it is there to help you realize when you are susceptible to fatigue.

[mattedfred]

so you guys have an approved napping program at WJ? nice

[Rotten Apple #1]

Cat's outta the bag...

The 10-20 minute time frame for the nap is key for me. And about an hour prior to planning the approach, I'd like to have it completed. Give me time to adjust, drink some coffee and bore my colleague with with my tales.

Works for me for early a.m. arrivals into YYZ, e.g.