If you're going to do a degree, then do it in finance. So that you will know how to manage your own.
Much of life is based on financial security, and the level to which you attain determines your quality of life. Conversely, the higher the level of debt, or credit, you are able to command, the poorer your quality of life.
Paying off a student loan is simple. Every penny you earn is already owned by the bank. So give it to them. If you already understand finance and debt, then you would have already applied to every government program available to reduce that debt. "Loan forgiveness", "Interest Relief" come to mind. Don't forget about "wellfare" for those months that you are traveling between jobs. Don't worry, you'll more than pay it back in taxes after you start to make ends meet. The taxman gets the first bite.
On the other hand, if you just bought the latest "IPhone", or the fiance a 10thou engagement ring, then your brainwashing is already too entrenched to do much about it. Just disregard the above.
Here's my 5cents on getting paid a high wage in any field, including aviation. There are 5 courses of action to reach that level,
1, BE FIRST
2, BE THE BEST
3, HAVE THE MOST EXPERIENCE
4, HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TOP DOG
5, CHEAT
Those that can employ all 5 in their chosen field command the highest compensations.
Mike Duffy comes to mind, #6 don't get caught with your wallet showing..
This is a copy of another posters response on the other thread.
Like so many others who have posted here, my feelings are biased by my experience as well. I may have a bit of a unique perspective, however, having taught at a college, while running a charter company, FTU next door. I'm just wondering if my thoughts seem way off base to others.
Here's my thinking: The biggest challenge this industry offers right now is getting the FIRST job. Once you're in, the bulk of your further education comes from the industry itself - on the job training (upgrades) if you will. I don't see a whole lot of operators hiring 200 hr CPL Multi IFR pilots directly into the right seat of a KA200, but I DO see the colleges continuing to sell their program based on that principle. I'm not questioning their ability to produce a high quality KA200 F.O., but I AM questioning the demand for that product. These days, unless your career is handed to you by your Daddy (more power to you if you can pull that one off ), we're all going to pay our dues in one form or another- Instructing, working a dock, F.O. on a bag run, etc.
Knowing what I do now, If I were doing it all over again, some of the questions I would be asking are: 1) What are the chances of getting a job where I train? 2) How quickly can I get out there and start paying my dues? 3) How much is it going to cost? 4) What do my instructors actually know about doing the job I'm being trained to do? 5) What IS the job I'm training to do, and how well prepared am I going to be to do that job?
The answer to question 1 is easy. There seems to be basically NO chance of getting hired right out of flight school by any College Program . That is not to say that every student that graduates from an FBO will get a job, but at least they have a CHANCE. While the connections made at a College are great, so too are the conversations you have and the connections you make on a daily basis with the itinerant pilots who hang out at the flight school FBO.
Question 2 depends more on the student at an FBO than anything else. I once took a student from 0 hours to CPL Multi IFR in 1 year (to the day, in fact ). If you're motivated (as most College Prospects are), and have the funds in place (ANY accredited school can get you student loan $$), there is no reason why it should take longer than 2 years to complete your licenses and ratings, and get out there. This puts you in the market at least a year ahead of the College Graduate. Remember also, as every Chief Pilot knows, Springtime is the season to have all your ducks in a row.
Question 3 is harder to answer. From my calculations, going the FBO route will leave you with between $10,000 and $20,000 hanging in your jeans. That's quite a bit of scratch for those first few years of paying your dues, or it goes quite a ways towards an independent degree or diploma. Is the extra amount spent in a College Program justified by the aid that education, or level of training, offers you either immediately, or eventually, in this industry. My answer is no, not today. Back when Commuter Airlines were hiring off the street (I've been told it actually did happen), the answer may have been different, but the times have changed now, and so has the entry level position.
Question 4 seems to be the really difficult sell for the FBOs, and in a way relates closely to question 3. The comment about QUALITY of instructors is a good one here. There is no question that on the whole the caliber of instructor at the college is higher (many College Programs use Class 4 instructors, so that alone cannot be an indicator, and many FBOs have career,experienced instructors on staff) - typically part 705 experienced. These professionals command a higher wage, therefore the cost of the College Program goes up. Is their level of knowledge and experience something that is going to make a difference when it comes to getting that first job? Is it going to make a difference 10 years down the line? I don't know. What I do know, is that an FBO school with a working charter side employs instructors who are also experienced in the working side of the industry. By no means am I trying to suggest that their level of knowledge is as deep as the College Professor, but they ARE doing, today, the job that a prospective CPL is training for. Can they teach a fresh CPL how to do their first flying job as well and as safely as a College Professor can? I think so. My point here, I guess, is that there are good instructors (and bad ones) everywhere if you look for them.
Question 5 has been answered throughout my ramblings here. The typical first flying job will be a 182 or 206 (maybe floats) flying day VFR charter, or as F/O on an Islander or Ho flying cargo (maybe pax), or ... Maybe part of the problem is that so few prospects want to even consider that these are likely to be their first jobs, that they can't see the reality of what they're getting trained to do. They see themselves as Airline Captains as soon as they graduate, so they pursue that type of training.
Hopefully I haven't pissed anyone off here...That wasn't my intention! For those who can afford the time and the $$, and who maybe need a little more discipline, there is no question that the College route is the way to go. I just feel that an FBO can produce AS GOOD A CANDIDATE FOR THE ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS THAT EXIST NOW, for way less money. Simply trying to find out if there are others out there who are thinking the same way in terms of preparing yourself effectively and economically for the realities of this industry today.
1 guy has 3000hrs total time and a degree, another guy has 6000hrs and no degree.
Or
Both guys have the same qualifications except one guy has a degree, the other guy does not, but he's good friends with people high up in the company.
Guess who is getting picked?
I know guys and gals in every sector and every level of the industry. Somebhave degrees, some don't. Some are better at their craft than others. The possesion degree has nothing to do with it.
Colonel Sanders wrote:No one cares where you went to flight school.
No one cares where you went to college/university,
or what you took when you went there.
Isn't quite right, because:
Colonel Sanders wrote:only TWO things count:
1) your flight time 2) who you know
Of course, when some of those big evil courses are $25k start to finish and others are $100k, I would hope people can determine for themselves if the extra hundred grand for course B is really worth it.
I think you're saying that if you pay an extra $75k,
you get the privilege of spending three years on your
training instead of one, but you get to meet some
people.
Not the greatest business model for a puppy mill.
Amazing they stay in business.
With $75k, I could buy all the hookers and blow you
could imagine, for the CP. Take some pictures, and
you're set.
PS If you're sweating the diploma/degree checkbox
on the AC application, no worries. Athabasca U (and
others) offer correspondence courses. That and a little
"life credit" will get you a BA for the cows in HR. If you're
really hard up, shoot me a PM with your info and I'll send
you a Master's in Marine Biology from U of T (Tanzania).
Colonel Sanders wrote:I think you're saying that if you pay an extra $75k,
you get the privilege of spending three years on your
training instead of one, but you get to meet some
people.
Not even close to what I was saying, although I now realize my math in my last post didn't keep up with my edits.
What I was getting at was that there are puppy mills out there that other people pay for (fully subsidized by our tax dollars). Whether you can do it faster elsewhere is up for debate but I doubt you could do it any cheaper.
All Diploma Aviation Programs are greedy. All they are trying to do is "fill seats" or their program will be cancelled and they will lose government funding.
They will sell seats any way they can. It's called advertising:
They will tell potential students that there is a pilot shortage or that they can make $100,000 in the first year as a pilot or better yet, only pilots with diplomas get hired by the Airlines. The famous line - only students from their program get hired by the airlines not from flight schools.
falcon50fo wrote:All Diploma Aviation Programs are greedy. All they are trying to do is "fill seats" or their program will be cancelled and they will lose government funding.
They will sell seats any way they can. It's called advertising:
They will tell potential students that there is a pilot shortage or that they can make $100,000 in the first year as a pilot or better yet, only pilots with diplomas get hired by the Airlines. The famous line - only students from their program get hired by the airlines not from flight schools.
Anything to sell seats at their diploma programs.
I disagree. I took one of these programs.
The college provided ex military guys, guys from industry that have retired, former transport canada inspectors in combination with people who were expert teachers but had never left flight training. The result was a well balanced; incredible learning experience. I graduated in 2009 had a job on a king air 4 months later. Captain 8 months after that and on my first jet going all over the less than 2 years after getting my commercial.
I attribute that to several things. My work ethic. My ability to work with people and see it their way and thus help them get what they needed while doing the same for myself and my education. I had all the basics in place. A solid foundation that gave me the ability to learn. I had seen all sorts of things (CRM, SOPs, Jet Sims, winter ops, etc...) before I went up to get into the 703 goat rodeo. Armed with that education I excelled where others without it did not.
I also graduated debt free. Despite being a bit of an artard in highschool (60% average) I excelled in the college environment and received basically a full scholarship after the first 2 semesters. A commercial MIFR and a degree for 6K.
Am I special? Only to my mom.....Anyone can do it. Stop pissing and moaning about this that and every other bloody thing and go out and give everything you have with the biggest smile you can muster. You will get your just reward.
Went to an aviation college, for me personally was the smartest thing I have done in my life. Things may not be the same now, but,
It, got me into the Air Force
It, helped get me a job at 2 Airlines (yes College discussion came up in the interview, and was told it specifically helped.
Of those that graduated my class and pursued a direct civilian career after college, over 3/4 were at Air Canada by the time I had 7 years in the Air Force.
Caveats, it was an Ontario college, where flying was paid. It (at the time) was a 2 year program, I paid rent (300/month to get a room in a shared house, total tuition was for the 2 years was under 5 grand. So not counting food for under 10 grand had a commercial multi IFR, from a college. Yes I know things are more expensive now, and said program is now 3 years, but still if I were to do it again, even not going into the military, I would go the college route in Ontario, hands down.
Would I go to one where I paid both normal tuition and for flying, no, in that case I would get the flying done from a good FTU.
Not, the commentary is free, and you get what you pay for, but good to have as many perspectives as you can.
I have seen Diploma programs out west where the "quality" is unbearable to watch.
CFI has no ATPL and airline experience. It's the blind leading the blind.
There is no subsidies, so parents (students) pay full price for a sales pitch.
In those cases, I would recommend Athabasca or Grant McEwen and get your Diploma by correspondence.
Pay as you go? I don't think that's really possible anymore. At least on any job that the average young person would have, and try to live at the same time. It will take you so long, that you'll have to redo so much flying and end up wasting more in the long run.
Borrow responsibly and have a back up plan. I would never borrow 60k and then risk ending up on a ramp. Confed or Sault are some of the best options if you can get in.. Who cares if people think the diploma is useless, the training is still subsidized.
Edit: I see Sault/Confed was already mentioned above. In any other case, I would agree that all other aviation colleges are useless. Pay an FTU, and a trade for back up.
