Sunwing/Westjet

[dansairplane]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

And you sound like a bot that just created an account to stir things up

[J Roc]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

Wasn't a similar calculation arbitrated for the 5T pilots during the 5T/7F merger? I believe the 5T pilots were given an additional 3 years of seniority because they had more jets and greater career expectations from having a larger fleet.

I'm sure its much more complicated, but career expectations and progression were big factors. Maybe the WJ merger guys are making similar assumptions, I don't know, but its much more complicated than just DOH.

[dansairplane]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

And you sound like a bot that just created an account to stir things up

I am a bot designed by k-demello to ‘stir things up’. How did you know? So smart.

[dansairplane]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

Wasn't a similar calculation arbitrated for the 5T pilots during the 5T/7F merger? I believe the 5T pilots were given an additional 3 years of seniority because they had more jets and greater career expectations from having a larger fleet.

I'm sure its much more complicated, but career expectations and progression were big factors. Maybe the WJ merger guys are making similar assumptions, I don't know, but its much more complicated than just DOH.

Was the 3 years seniority only given to a portion of the pilot group. If so, how was that decided?

[Tony Soprano]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

There was some thing floating around some chats saying that the Sunwing pilots wanted a few years of seniority added to their DOH. Who knows.

[nohojob]

The issue is that Westjet started in the mid 90s as far as I know and Sunwing around 2005.
So some adjustment to the DOH principle was discussed.

[Blackdog0301]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

You create an account, and then post something that you think will stir the pot. Get a life. You can whine all you want on a public forum. It's not going to change the outcome. If you want to continue your career being a grump and holding a grudge against the other group, then enjoy your miserable life.

[J Roc]

I have heard westjet wants to give multiple years of seniority added on to their pilots that started prior to the merger announcement date. Sounds like a good way to divide a pilot group.

Wasn't a similar calculation arbitrated for the 5T pilots during the 5T/7F merger? I believe the 5T pilots were given an additional 3 years of seniority because they had more jets and greater career expectations from having a larger fleet.

I'm sure it's much more complicated, but career expectations and progression were big factors. Maybe the WJ merger guys are making similar assumptions, I don't know, but it's much more complicated than just DOH.

Was the 3 years seniority only given to a portion of the pilot group. If so, how was that decided?

Honestly, I'm not completely sure. Maybe a 5T pilot could comment on the precise outcome.

Regardless, it's in the hands of the lawyers and arbitrators now. Don't read too much into the leaked submissions either; both sides will present their entire wish list and the arbitrator will decide. I'm sure the award will be equitable for everyone - new routes, more aircraft, more growth and opportunities.

[Donald]

For the 5T/7F merger, if you were on the 5T list by a specific date (ie the start of the merger process), you had 3 years added to your doh seniority. The arbitrator weighed the pillars of ALPA merger policy, and felt that was the fairest way to merge the lists. 7F wanted strictly doh, and 5T wanted a ratio, this was the compromise.

[Pilotmuscle]

Do we think the April 30th merger date still will stand or get pushed further?

[ant_321]

Do we think the April 30th merger date still will stand or get pushed further?

April is the beginning of the merger. Some low hanging fruit have been taken care of with integration of some SOP’s to make the transition easier. I think the spring will happen and Sunwing airlines will be fully integrated by early summer. But I have been wrong once or twice before.

[Canadaflyer46]

Arbitrator will release the new integrated seniority list on October 30th.

[MaxAuto]

The training profile is being taught to selected trainers and will tested and monitored by TC for approval in the coming weeks in order for integration to be completed by June of 2025. Groups of ten from each seat will trained at a time. The training footprint is about 11 days.

[pacman007]

Any update on the merger? upgrades? downgrades?

[safetyfirst123]

Deadline is next week, so it all should be known soon

[MaxAuto]

The arbitrators written ruling with be issued on the 30th.

We'll probably know then or the next day.

Here's the ruling for the flight attendants if you're interested.

https://mcusercontent.com/c117e0c8ca47b ... 5_2024.pdf

[cdnavater]

The arbitrators written ruling with be issued on the 30th.

We'll probably know then or the next day.

Here's the ruling for the flight attendants if you're interested.

https://mcusercontent.com/c117e0c8ca47b ... 5_2024.pdf

That was an interesting read, is Kaplan the arbitrator for the pilots as well?
One could surmise the outcome will likely be the same, DOH, the question becomes what about holding left seat out of seniority and based on what I read, the arbitration will likely pass the buck on to the company and union.
I guess the major difference with the FAs is that at WJ, they are all equal, no “in charge” per se but it does sound like the the Sunwing FAs that were in that position will lose some pay. Effectively a downgrade, will be interesting to read the pilots result.

[rudder]

The arbitrators written ruling with be issued on the 30th.

We'll probably know then or the next day.

Here's the ruling for the flight attendants if you're interested.

https://mcusercontent.com/c117e0c8ca47b ... 5_2024.pdf

That was an interesting read, is Kaplan the arbitrator for the pilots as well?
One could surmise the outcome will likely be the same, DOH, the question becomes what about holding left seat out of seniority and based on what I read, the arbitration will likely pass the buck on to the company and union.
I guess the major difference with the FAs is that at WJ, they are all equal, no “in charge” per se but it does sound like the the Sunwing FAs that were in that position will lose some pay. Effectively a downgrade, will be interesting to read the pilots result.

Even Kaplan said “you cannot apply pilot considerations to FA’s” (that is paraphrasing).

The arbitrator for the pilot ISL is not Kaplan. Highly unlikely the pilot list will be DOH. There has not been a pilot ISL arbitration award based on DOH in years (maybe even decades).

I would guess ratio or variable ratio with some fences for the 787.

[cdnavater]

The arbitrators written ruling with be issued on the 30th.

We'll probably know then or the next day.

Here's the ruling for the flight attendants if you're interested.

https://mcusercontent.com/c117e0c8ca47b ... 5_2024.pdf

That was an interesting read, is Kaplan the arbitrator for the pilots as well?
One could surmise the outcome will likely be the same, DOH, the question becomes what about holding left seat out of seniority and based on what I read, the arbitration will likely pass the buck on to the company and union.
I guess the major difference with the FAs is that at WJ, they are all equal, no “in charge” per se but it does sound like the the Sunwing FAs that were in that position will lose some pay. Effectively a downgrade, will be interesting to read the pilots result.

Even Kaplan said “you cannot apply pilot considerations to FA’s” (that is paraphrasing).

The arbitrator for the pilot ISL is not Kaplan. Highly unlikely the pilot list will be DOH. There has not been a pilot ISL arbitration award based on DOH in years (maybe even decades).

I would guess ratio or variable ratio with some fences for the 787.

Curious, do you think that the ratio will apply before Sunwing existed or will all pilots hired before 2004 be unaffected?
Kaplan said this would constitute an injustice to ignore the fact Sunwing didn’t exist for those hired between 1996 and 2004.

[MaxAuto]

My guess would be some sort of relative seniority and DOH for everyone hired post merger announcement.

If WestJet determines they have too many captains post SLI they will simply downgrade bottom up. That will effect the bottom SW captains who upgraded within a year and were hired after 2018

[rudder]

That was an interesting read, is Kaplan the arbitrator for the pilots as well?
One could surmise the outcome will likely be the same, DOH, the question becomes what about holding left seat out of seniority and based on what I read, the arbitration will likely pass the buck on to the company and union.
I guess the major difference with the FAs is that at WJ, they are all equal, no “in charge” per se but it does sound like the the Sunwing FAs that were in that position will lose some pay. Effectively a downgrade, will be interesting to read the pilots result.

Even Kaplan said “you cannot apply pilot considerations to FA’s” (that is paraphrasing).

The arbitrator for the pilot ISL is not Kaplan. Highly unlikely the pilot list will be DOH. There has not been a pilot ISL arbitration award based on DOH in years (maybe even decades).

I would guess ratio or variable ratio with some fences for the 787.

Curious, do you think that the ratio will apply before Sunwing existed or will all pilots hired before 2004 be unaffected?
Kaplan said this would constitute an injustice to ignore the fact Sunwing didn’t exist for those hired between 1996 and 2004.

Go look at the AS/VX award.

Won’t be a carbon copy but look at the demographics and the underlying arguments - and accordingly - the result including reasons.

[nohojob]

I feel stupid to ask but what is AS and VX ?

[Canadaflyer46]

With regards to fences for the 787, the WestJet PTM clearly states that 2 years must be spent on WJ 737s before being able to bid for the 787. That clause has prevented several Encore flows from moving onto the 787, despite their seniority allowing it and a pilot junior to them taking their seat (so in other words, it’s enforced). No fences even required really.

[cdnavater]

I feel stupid to ask but what is AS and VX ?

Alaskan/Virgin, it seems some Virgin pilots hit the lottery with this merger
I couldn’t find the actual award, just some online discussions, from another forum;
“60% longevity, 40% status/category
Harmony model meaning the formula was applied straight through 60/40 with no other ratios/re-doing
No fences
Certain restrictions to protect current CAs on both sides in case of future base closure/reduction
Most senior AS pilot hired 1979, most senior VX guy Dec 2006.
With the formula above the first VX pilot showed up at #534 which placed him next to a 1998 AS hire.
It fairly quickly drops into putting yr 2000 hires of AS with 2007 hires at VX and so forth. It seems 2012 and onwards is almost DOH with that formula (give or take).
The AS guy directly above/below me were hired the same month/year as I was; pleasantly surprised at my final result and did really well all things considered.“