AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

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pelmet
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by pelmet »

Cliff Jumper wrote:
pelmet wrote:I disagree that is impossible to prevent but I check your remarks...so if you magically get a flight there tomorrow under the same circumstances as they had with no reliable electronics to align you with the runway, what is your plan to prevent a repeat captain?
No, I didn't say it was impossible to prevent, just that with the proven info we have right now, and not knowing why it happened, it is impossible to guess how to prevent it.

Take your quoted example... the ILS. You are going on the premise that they didn't have it tuned, and that's likely true, but it isn't proven to be true. So, deciding now that AC should come up with new policies to always tune the ILS or replace the aircraft with newer ones, is a solution for a problem that only hypothetically exists.

What do we really know for sure? Distances, times, heights, couple of screen caps, atc tapes, notams, and weather. That's about it.

Based on those alone, I have no idea why what happened happened. Couple of wild theories perhaps, but it this moment, that's all they are.
Anything else you would like to add to your briefing to your co-pilot for the approach tonight. Imagine your Citation with both ILS's failed. What is your plan after hearing about this incident to make sure there is no repeat? Looks like there will be no response. 8,000 hours and no willingness to say what you would do the next night. OK, I guess you are right about nothing to offer. No one else seems interested either it seems.
complexintentions wrote:I stand by my comment. It was a non-event.

Tenerife. That was an event.

this one has been reported as if it WAS a disaster. When it was actually a disaster that was prevented. Obviously the press and some of the more excitable types here have picked which side of that equation they'd like to focus on, with the AC-bashers gleefully leading the charge. It's fine to argue all day long about how narrowly it was prevented, or by whom, whatever, but it gets old reading the hyperventilating rhetoric, that almost at times seems ghoulishly disappointed it was prevented, because hey then we could say those AC guys REALLY "effed up", right? This is the age we live in, when actual disasters are rare enough that "close calls" have to fill in for sensationalism.

As Rockie said, hysteria.

I feel somewhat vindicated by the fact they were already in a climb when ATC instructed the go-around.
Still a non-event eh. It needs to be investigated but yet it is a non-event. Riiight. And your example of what you consider to be an event is the worst aviation disaster ever. Uh-huh.

Please show us where the media said it WAS a disaster. You won't because you can't. In reality, just stuff you have made up based on nothing, as most of your posts have been. And now you hint(based on nothing) that people here ghoulishly wished their had been an accident. Some people just can't admit when they are wrong despite the increasing eveidence being published that they are wrong. A good example of denial. I suppose if it turns out that they did a touch and go between airliners, it will still be a non-event.

You and Rockie are entertaining to say the least. At least Rockie started off the thread with several posts of good technical info. Of all your posts, only one had any and it was off-topic anyways.

Some vindication.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Cat Driver »

The part that I can not understand is it appears the pilots were interviewed and neither of them saw any of the four airplanes during the whole event.

Why did they not see them?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Now, that IS a good question. Why didn't they see them. I wish we had a good answer, but we don't.... yet.

There are some other great questions too....

Where were they looking exactly?
What caught their attention as ususual?
How was the nav set up?
What was their seat height?
What type of bulbs are in the taxiway edge lights?
Were they well rested?
Did they have corrected vision of some kind?
Was the windshield spalled?
Were they in good health?
What did they discuss on short final?
Were they distracted by anything else?

There are a million questions really... and a million possible answers. All of which we are kinda guessing at, at this point.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Cat Driver »

Well if that picture of the airplane just before they went around is genuine they had their landing lights on, at that height how could they not see any of those airplanes?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by mbav8r »

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but those altitude readouts are from the transponder, one thing about transponders everyone should be aware of, they're not precise and that three feet could easily be 23 feet. I'm certain the TSB investigation will not rely solely on that and perhaps use the video they have to calculate exactly how much they cleared by, until then your three feet is purely sensational BS
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by pelmet »

Interesting simulation of the incident. Correlation of the ATC recording looks to be off by a couple of seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydUqfhNqUIc

While obviously not the standard for reporting an event, I do suspect that the passengers in the first plane that had the S**t scared out of them when an airplane flew overhead(United 1 was at 45 degrees to the approaching aircraft) felt that this was an event. Or would that be hysteria as well.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by rxl »

complexintentions wrote:I stand by my comment. It was a non-event.

Tenerife. That was an event.

Was this one closer than it should have been? Yeah duh. Of course it needs to be investigated as to why. But this one has been reported as if it WAS a disaster. When it was actually a disaster that was prevented. Obviously the press and some of the more excitable types here have picked which side of that equation they'd like to focus on, with the AC-bashers gleefully leading the charge. It's fine to argue all day long about how narrowly it was prevented, or by whom, whatever, but it gets old reading the hyperventilating rhetoric, that almost at times seems ghoulishly disappointed it was prevented, because hey then we could say those AC guys REALLY "effed up", right? This is the age we live in, when actual disasters are rare enough that "close calls" have to fill in for sensationalism.

As Rockie said, hysteria.

I feel somewhat vindicated by the fact they were already in a climb when ATC instructed the go-around.
Nothing more needs to be said about this particular incident than the above.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Cat Driver »

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but those altitude readouts are from the transponder, one thing about transponders everyone should be aware of, they're not precise and that three feet could easily be 23 feet.



Height above the ground for the latter part of the approach and landing is measured by a radar altimeter and it is very accurate as demonstrated in the " retard " voice command just prior to touch down.

I have a file of video taken in the A320 sim at Airbus and I was always impressed with the height voice readouts, especially close to the runway.

I wanted to look at the videos again today before I posted this but they are in one of my old computers and I can't find it.

I'm certain the TSB investigation will not rely solely on that and perhaps use the video they have to calculate exactly how much they cleared by, until then your three feet is purely sensational BS
Twenty three feet or three feet?

An A320 is 38 feet 7 inches high.

Either one is frightening as far as I am concerned.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie »

JeppsOnFire wrote:
Rockie wrote:Funny comment Jepps, except this incident was over before anybody heard about it and now all that's left is to dissect it to hopefully prevent a recurrence.

The situation down south is an ongoing accelerating disaster that everyday exceeds even the most pessimistic fears. Not the same thing at all..
OK. Of course this incident was over before anyone heard about it. I am not clairvoyant enough to discuss it before it happened and I if you expect Avcanada to be already abuzz while this Airbus was spooling up on the Go, you're optimistic at best.

Of course an Airbus Go-Around is dissimilar to a Presidential election. The common ground between the two is that Rockie from the internet, by decree, will announce what is worthy of hysteria and what is not. Unbiased of course.

If anyone looks at those photos and thinks 'meh', that's disturbing.
Too funny. You apparently fail to see the irony between your statement against me and declaring yourself what should be hysteria worthy. You can disagree Jepps, but don't presume your opinion is any less or more relevant than mine. This is the internet, learn the rules.

It's all good fun, nobody loses an eye and airlines and TC don't read this site looking for insight.

Jeez...
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by confusedalot »

Calling a spade a spade has been criminalized long ago. Touchy feeley works well in certain circumstances, but not this one.

Personally, if I did that, I would be fired.

I have been harshly dealt with only for the fact that I was stuck in a screwed up customs line and was 5 minutes late for check in at the gate. Think about that for a while.

Use the fatigue defense to get these guys out of the weeds. There really is no other option.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie »

Confused, how did you escape an entire career without learning the first thing about why investigations are conducted? Really...you're confused and I'm curious.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Cliff Jumper »

confusedalot wrote:Personally, if I did that, I would be fired.
Well, that settles it. If confusedalot would be fired for a mistake, then everyone else should be too.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by confusedalot »

You are deflecting. Great tactic on the battlefield, not applicable in a case like this.

Like I said, use the fatigue defense, nothing else fits.

How did I escape, incredibly lucky I guess. Of course, competence has nothing to do with my survival. We all know that.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie »

I never mentioned fatigue because like you I don't know why this crew misidentified the runway. I'm glad you recognize luck has much to do with your survival in this business. Seems you might be more like me than you like to admit. Galling isn't it?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Cat Driver »

Use the fatigue defense to get these guys out of the weeds. There really is no other option.

That has been suggested by several of us here but, no, the defenders of Air Canada will have none of that because the investigation has not been finished yet.

Of course it is quite likely some other " human factors " incident or God forbid accident will put this latest episode to rest and we probably will never really know what really caused that crew to do what they did.

I still can not think of a logical reason neither of them saw any airplanes on that taxiway, all they knew was something just did not look right.

Weird.
How did I escape, incredibly lucky I guess.
I was another one that was incredibly lucky, I should have went to Las Vegas every day instead of flying airplanes for a living, hell I would be richer than Trump. :smt040
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie »

Well, with all this acknowledgement of luck in our careers it's puzzling why those same people would be so quick to condemn this crew. Internet bravado I guess, even if you use your real name..
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Jet Jockey »

mbav8r wrote:Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but those altitude readouts are from the transponder, one thing about transponders everyone should be aware of, they're not precise and that three feet could easily be 23 feet. I'm certain the TSB investigation will not rely solely on that and perhaps use the video they have to calculate exactly how much they cleared by, until then your three feet is purely sensational BS
First you tell me there was lateral separation too, and I prove to you according to the diagrams from the NTSB which correlates what the other aircraft on the ground said that they over flew taxiway C until at least past the fourth aircraft.

Now you come back at me again with my possible 3 feet vertical separation as sensational BS.

In all my posts I always said it was "possibly" as low as a 3 foot clearance and even said it could have been 10 feet or even 20 feet but you keep sticking with the 3 feet as if it was the absolute reality.

And even if I take your 23 foot separation, don't you think it was a "near disaster? The FAA and NTSB sure think so because this is classified as "Serious Incident".

The only BS I see here is you... Keep smoking what ever you are smoking.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Rockie »

Jet Jockey wrote:
mbav8r wrote:Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but those altitude readouts are from the transponder, one thing about transponders everyone should be aware of, they're not precise and that three feet could easily be 23 feet. I'm certain the TSB investigation will not rely solely on that and perhaps use the video they have to calculate exactly how much they cleared by, until then your three feet is purely sensational BS
First you tell me there was lateral separation too, and I prove to you according to the diagrams from the NTSB which correlates what the other aircraft on the ground said that they over flew taxiway C until at least past the fourth aircraft.

Now you come back at me again with my possible 3 feet vertical separation as sensational BS.

In all my posts I always said it was "possibly" as low as a 3 foot clearance and even said it could have been 10 feet or even 20 feet but you keep sticking with the 3 feet as if it was the absolute reality.

And even if I take your 23 foot separation, don't you think it was a "near disaster? The FAA and NTSB sure think so because this is classified as "Serious Incident".

The only BS I see here is you... Keep smoking what ever you are smoking.
You guys are actually splitting hairs on separation as if it was relevant to preventing a recurrence. How about we just say it was only 1 foot and concentrate on trying to prevent a recurrance?
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella »

Lot of hate-on for Air Canada..........
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Black_Tusk »

Old fella wrote:Lot of hate-on for Air Canada..........
It's a Canadian past-time.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Old fella »

Black_Tusk wrote:
Old fella wrote:Lot of hate-on for Air Canada..........
It's a Canadian past-time.
Indeed!!
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by mbav8r »

Fair enough, anyhow I considered a possibility tonight, keep in mind I have no idea if SFO has LED lighting but white LED lights have a blue hue to them and if the taxiway lights were low could they appear as white LED lights? As to why they weren't seeing the four aircraft on the taxiway, I have nothing
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Eric Janson »

complexintentions wrote:I stand by my comment. It was a non-event.
Sorry - don't agree. Just because it didn't end in disaster doesn't make it a "non-event".

The NTSB doesn't agree with you either.

The pictures speak for themselves. Very disturbing to see how close the aircraft are to each other vertically.

I fly A340. I hope I never see what the Filipino Pilots must have seen. I'd be interested in hearing their account.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by Eric Janson »

mbav8r wrote:Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but those altitude readouts are from the transponder, one thing about transponders everyone should be aware of, they're not precise and that three feet could easily be 23 feet. I'm certain the TSB investigation will not rely solely on that and perhaps use the video they have to calculate exactly how much they cleared by, until then your three feet is purely sensational BS
Since the report talks about altitude referenced to ground level I suspect the height data is from the Radio Altimeter.

This extremely accurate.
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Re: AC Lining Up with a Taxiway SFO...?

Post by JeppsOnFire »

Rockie wrote:
JeppsOnFire wrote:
Rockie wrote:Funny comment Jepps, except this incident was over before anybody heard about it and now all that's left is to dissect it to hopefully prevent a recurrence.

The situation down south is an ongoing accelerating disaster that everyday exceeds even the most pessimistic fears. Not the same thing at all..
OK. Of course this incident was over before anyone heard about it. I am not clairvoyant enough to discuss it before it happened and I if you expect Avcanada to be already abuzz while this Airbus was spooling up on the Go, you're optimistic at best.

Of course an Airbus Go-Around is dissimilar to a Presidential election. The common ground between the two is that Rockie from the internet, by decree, will announce what is worthy of hysteria and what is not. Unbiased of course.

If anyone looks at those photos and thinks 'meh', that's disturbing.
Too funny. You apparently fail to see the irony between your statement against me and declaring yourself what should be hysteria worthy. You can disagree Jepps, but don't presume your opinion is any less or more relevant than mine. This is the internet, learn the rules.

It's all good fun, nobody loses an eye and airlines and TC don't read this site looking for insight.

Jeez...
I see those photos and I don't think 'meh'. Yes, hysteria. :roll:
Straw man argument - fail. If this is a debate, learn the rules.
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