New TA reached!

[Localizer]

Air Canada does not subsidize Jazz in the Thomas Cook venture ..

Well, not by choice, obviously.

So you consider a separate company using its earned revenue to start a new venture subsidizing? I don't believe "subsidizing" is the right word. Another good example of why pilots should not be involved in business.

[rudder]

Air Canada does not subsidize Jazz in the Thomas Cook venture ..

Well, not by choice, obviously.

So you consider a separate company using its earned revenue to start a new venture subsidizing? I don't believe "subsidizing" is the right word. Another good example of why pilots should not be involved in business.

Calin has convinced ACPA and the AC pilots that AC is being screwed in the Jazz CPA deal. Interesting. But who negotiated and signed the last CPA deal with Jazz on behalf of AC? Calin.

Smoke and mirrors. And pilots buy it.

[mbav8r]

Unfortunately that ship has long sailed. Mainline Commuters are reporting that they are getting constantly refused the jumpseat on Jazz, with the "canned" excuse of "weight and balance."

One guy got tossed out of the BACK of an RJ with 12 open seats. Captain claiming "weight and balance."

Stu,
Sorry to hear that, with 12 open seats a commuter was off loaded. I can only imagine the reason for this, it may be a tit for tat situation. I know a Captain who has a list of who had denied him the jump, and the people(person) on the list will be denied for having denied him, yes he laughed when he said there was only one name on the list. He won't deny anyone other than this one person. Myself having been denied, I still go out of my way to make sure any commuter gets on, I wouldn't recognize the ones who've denied me anyway.
The weight and balance of a full RJ, is a very different story, I was denied the Jump last week from a Jazz RJ. Load control said no, it would've required 500 lbs of ballast and a delay in order to put me in the jump. I've been there, as the pilot having to deny someone, it sucks. We have had load control say no, but the Captain overroad them and loaded the ballast anyway, just depends on the guy. It also seems to be happening quite abit lately, full a/c, light bag count, the RJ is bad for that.

[teacher]

I've had to deny commuters as well. Nothing personal but even on short flights with extra gas and lotsa bags you're SOL on the dash. I'm not gonna bump bags or pax for commuters even though I was asked to do it once.

[Localizer]

I'm sure we've all been denied the jump seat .. atleast once. Its nothing to get upset about .. as long as you leave yourself a couple flights when travelling to work. (which you should be doing if flights are that full) Never count on the jump seat, if it works out, great!

There is a fellow on my commute (AC Capt .. Jazz flight), that just feels he should always have a seat regardless. He honestly feels that a pax should be removed so he can get to work. He never leaves himself an extra flight .. instead takes the flight that arrives 10 min before his check-in. If he doesn't get on the flight .. for whatever reason .. everyone else is the idiot. The agents, the ramp guys, the Jazz pilots, the airplane, the airport authority are all idiots and that's why he can't get to work.

Hard to feel bad for that sorta person .. yet I can see him in the crew room later on telling his comrades about how he didn't get to work on time because of those nasty Jazz pilots.

Both groups have there "special" people ..

[KAG]

I've seen YUL based pilots deny jump to fellow Jazz pilots citing W&B on a semi loaded 705. There are dinks in all walks of life.

[yycflyguy]

Geez you guys. You took a thread on a TA between Air Canada and ACPA and managed to devolve it into a Jazz vs ACPA thing. Can we focus on the bigger picture please? Jumpseat PRIVILEGE (note that it's a privilege not a right) and C2 passes are your big concern?? And we wonder why there is a steady decline in the WAWCON for the entire industry.

[mbav8r]

Pardon? our concern? WTF over? We are not the ones trying to change our pass prority to a lower priority.
Next, WAWCON, yes please do get a great contract, which improves your WAWCON, but get it on your own merits and not to the detriment of others. The debate in this thread has mostly been about how certain items in your TA, will lead to the total decline of WAWCON, in the long run.
Thankfully, you've managed to quash it, for now. Hopefully you'll see, as a group, that selling out Jazz, for your short term gain, will have lasting effects in many, many ways.
As someone has pointed out, the CPA seems to be a one way street and holds us to only you. It seems that when the CPA was renegotiated, our top brass, must have figured ACPA would never allow another Tier 2 provider. Otherwise, I would think they would have incorporated a proviso for a one for one, the other way around. Every aircraft for another tier 2, is one for which we can provide CPA services to another, for no penalty on our AC CPA. Fair's fair.

[yycflyguy]

Pardon? our concern? WTF over? We are not the ones trying to change our pass prority to a lower priority.
Next, WAWCON, yes please do get a great contract, which improves your WAWCON, but get it on your own merits and not to the detriment of others. The debate in this thread has mostly been about how certain items in your TA, will lead to the total decline of WAWCON, in the long run.
Thankfully, you've managed to quash it, for now. Hopefully you'll see, as a group, that selling out Jazz, for your short term gain, will have lasting effects in many, many ways.
As someone has pointed out, the CPA seems to be a one way street and holds us to only you. It seems that when the CPA was renegotiated, our top brass, must have figured ACPA would never allow another Tier 2 provider. Otherwise, I would think they would have incorporated a proviso for a one for one, the other way around. Every aircraft for another tier 2, is one for which we can provide CPA services to another, for no penalty on our AC CPA. Fair's fair.

Neither are we. There is no mention of pass priority in this TA so get over it.

Like I said, try to see the big picture instead of your personal agenda.

[mbav8r]

Okay so look at the big picture, you responded to my first sentence about pass travel. What about the rest.
Is it okay with you, that ACPA allow AC to diversify away from Jazz, but not the other way around?

[fly4ever]

[mbav8r]

back at yah

[LisaS]

Think you guys need a little break!

[29chev]

Thanks a lot LisaS
after watching that now I feel suicidal

just another low point in AC history

[What About Me?]

Good one Lisa

Another one who took the big $$$ from Air Canada....and probably never flys commercial!

[yycflyguy]

Okay so look at the big picture, you responded to my first sentence about pass travel. What about the rest.
Is it okay with you, that ACPA allow AC to diversify away from Jazz, but not the other way around?

Weren't you the same guy on here telling everyone that it was ok for Jazz to go outside of the CPA to secure "new" flying with the 757's but now don't like the idea of having competition that can compete without infrastructure overhead and fuel paid for? Weren't you the one during your contract negots saying that this was about your future? Guess what, this is now about ACPA pilots' future.

Like I said. This TA aint about you. This TA aint about Jazz and this TA aint about the past between the 2 groups. I am just a line pilot with one vote. I will exercise it appropriately.

This TA is Air Canada pilots chance at reversing a disturbing trend in the entire industry.

Thinking about what is or isn't in it for Jazz is the least of our worries.

[cheeky cough]

Celine brings back memories for me, I was deadheading back
after a pairing with Jazz , and happened to watch this music
video. It was on an Air Canada flight and I was recently
accepted by Air Canada to join their ranks. Years of study
and work experience paid off, as well as some paid off interviewers.
I got a bit of a tear in my eye as ol' horse face sung this song,
( she does have a great voice!!) , as I took my headset off, I
immediately heard two old hag flight attendants at the back
of the aircraft complaining over god knows what ruining my moment.
Thanks a lot b$tc$e@ .
My point being , aviation is serious business,take the high road.
We all know pilots that have died in the line of duty.
Treat other pilots with professional respect.
No other employee knows the sh?$ you went through to become
a pilot.

[chatman]

AC is about due for a new motivational song for the employees.

Maybe this one instead
The Simpsons - Union Strike Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj5OT3z1VGA

[mbav8r]

This TA is Air Canada pilots chance at reversing a disturbing trend in the entire industry.

yycflyguy,
Do you see the irony in your statement? A TA with unlimited tier 2 providers and a LCC, thats your idea of reversing a disturbing trend? Silly me, I thought that was the disturbing part.
Yes, the 57 flying is outside the CPA, but you don't see the value of Jazz doing the work verses Westjet or Transat or Canjet or worse yet, a new LCC. Thomas Cook was coming whether we did it or not, it's not something we're doing to threaten AC nor is it bad for the industry. The wages are based on industry standard and we are a unionized work group. What you're advocating, is definitely bad for the industry.

[Localizer]

Do you see the irony in your statement? A TA with unlimited tier 2 providers and a LCC, thats your idea of reversing a disturbing trend? Silly me, I thought that was the disturbing part.

Respectfully mbav8r, they squashed the TA .. and I don't remember reading any post from yycflyguy that favoured the last TA. Actually .. I think the majority or AC posters were against this TA.

I have faith in the pilots at Air Canada ... I don't have faith in their representation since they tried to hoodwink their own pilots.

[mbav8r]

mbav8r wrote:

Okay so look at the big picture, you responded to my first sentence about pass travel. What about the rest.
Is it okay with you, that ACPA allow AC to diversify away from Jazz, but not the other way around?


Weren't you the same guy on here telling everyone that it was ok for Jazz to go outside of the CPA to secure "new" flying with the 757's but now don't like the idea of having competition that can compete without infrastructure overhead and fuel paid for? Weren't you the one during your contract negots saying that this was about your future? Guess what, this is now about ACPA pilots' future.

Like I said. This TA aint about you. This TA aint about Jazz and this TA aint about the past between the 2 groups. I am just a line pilot with one vote. I will exercise it appropriately.

This TA is Air Canada pilots chance at reversing a disturbing trend in the entire industry.

Thinking about what is or isn't in it for Jazz is the least of our worries.

Localizer, you're correct, so far the TA has been sqaushed but I don't see any other way to interpret the above bolded statements, other than support for, at the very least, allowing unlimited tier 2 providers. Do you?
They may be against this TA as a whole, but what parts, the DC pensions, the 4 year base salary, where if you do the math, equals no raise. You make more in year 1 and 2 but less than you currently would in year 3 and 4, under a worst case senario, ie; still an RP. Even more so, if you got on the 320. There are alot of reasons to be against this TA, but I don't think it has anything to do with the negative impact it will have down the road. I hope I'm wrong about that.

[yycflyguy]

I have faith in the pilots at Air Canada ... I don't have faith in their representation since they tried to hoodwink their own pilots.

The Executive Council recall process is well underway.

They may be against this TA as a whole, but what parts, the DC pensions, the 4 year base salary, where if you do the math, equals no raise. You make more in year 1 and 2 but less than you currently would in year 3 and 4, under a worst case senario, ie; still an RP. Even more so, if you got on the 320. There are alot of reasons to be against this TA, but I don't think it has anything to do with the negative impact it will have down the road. I hope I'm wrong about that.

Everything you said here is true. The main reasons for the TA vote cancellation is the backlash from language that will allow further division amongst the membership. The wedges include the LCC and its reduced wages for anybody not grandfathered, 4 years of flat pay, DC for the new hires. The language is poor and does not protect like our current contract. Like I keep saying. There is no underground movement to "stick it to Jazz" like what you have been suggesting. No Pass priority language. So can we leave the commuting can of worms out of this?

[aerodude]

What's sad is that CR is still going ahead with plans of unlimited feeder ops and a low cost start up even though there is a clear lack of agreement among its employees/pilots with no signed agreement. I think it just shows what kind of respect he has towards his workers. Its great to see him sending us emails and calling us "team" member but this is reality. I am glad to see things are finally changing but is it too late? Seems to me the ball is already rolling.

[Localizer]

What's sad is that CR is still going ahead with plans of unlimited feeder ops and a low cost start up even though there is a clear lack of agreement among its employees/pilots with no signed agreement. I think it just shows what kind of respect he has towards his workers. Its great to see him sending us emails and calling us "team" member but this is reality. I am glad to see things are finally changing but is it too late? Seems to me the ball is already rolling.

I agree .. I find it troubling that no delay's have been posted to the Sky Regional operation (since it starts May 1), and no contract has been agreed upon. Does anyone remember if the let ACPA gave on Sky Regional expired in February or not?

Maybe CR thinks he can get away with whatever he wants since the ACPA MEC seems to be in a tight spin .. or he just doesn't care about contracts anymore.

[flyincanuck]

Excellent post!!! Best I've ever seen here.

Celine brings back memories for me, I was deadheading back
after a pairing with Jazz , and happened to watch this music
video. It was on an Air Canada flight and I was recently
accepted by Air Canada to join their ranks. Years of study
and work experience paid off, as well as some paid off interviewers.
I got a bit of a tear in my eye as ol' horse face sung this song,
( she does have a great voice!!) , as I took my headset off, I
immediately heard two old hag flight attendants at the back
of the aircraft complaining over god knows what ruining my moment.
Thanks a lot b$tc$e@ .
My point being , aviation is serious business,take the high road.
We all know pilots that have died in the line of duty.
Treat other pilots with professional respect.
No other employee knows the sh?$ you went through to become
a pilot.