Take the vaccine, or lose your job - WTF?

[Counterpoint]

"But still" what?

What countries require aircrew to be vaccinated?

Canada doesn't.

US doesn't.

Mexico doesn't.

In fact no country in the Americas does.

EU doesn't.

UK doesn't.

So who?

People here are stating that it's a legal requirement. Where?

If it were a legal requirement, would you comply ?

What in the vaccine has you so scared ?

[imjustlurking]

What in the vaccine has you so scared ?

The chemical that makes you a liberal?

[altiplano]

Canada does as of August 13th 2021.

Government of Canada to require vaccination of federal workforce and federally regulated transportation sector

https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board ... ector.html

No, Canada does not.

They have not followed through.

If it were a legal requirement, would you comply ?

What in the vaccine has you so scared ?

If it were a legal requirement it would be a different conversation. People here are saying it's a legal requirement and the fact is that it's not.

I've done my personal risk analysis. This should be a personal choice. I may re-evaluate my position as new information comes available, but as it stands I personally don't want it. I support everyone in whatever their personal choices are though. There are also clearly alternatives. The company has ran a testing program for the last year. That's available at other workplaces that are seeking mandates.

I also reject the larger narrative surrounding covid, the population has been manipulated with fear. Propaganda and censorship are the norm. I'm not interested in following that trajectory.

Your employer has put out numerous, unambiguous communications that spell out the very serious consequences of not getting vaccinated. They've also said they're going to proceed with this policy regardless of what the government does.

You're looking at the weather map, trying to decipher the isobars. But if you look out the window, there's a big dark cloud with lots of lightning coming your way.

If your game plan is to challenge your employer's policy because the government hasn't passed specific legislation, well, bonne chance. The legal minds out there have said this policy will survive any challenge.

Which legal minds are those? Can you share that report? Every report ACPa legal gets says they'll fail so no surprise there. We always lose.

The company actually is very ambiguous about their policy, they are rushing it with a short time available to comply, MLOs and VPFOPS just parrot the policy but can't give any answers. Heck, the ACPA reps just parrot the company line...

They aren't even spelling out what accommodation means under the human rights code, or getting back to people on requests for accommodation as their deadline ticks away. When will the policy conclude? What's next after the first 2 shots? Will that be it? Why wasn't this discussed with my bargaining agent? Why are you going against what was stated 6 months ago by DS - "AC won't mandate vaccines."

Question for all you guys.
What do you feel you gain supporting the company over supporting your fellow line pilots?
I would go to the line for you guys, to support your personal choices, your values, your integrity, I would never want to see the screws put to you to do something you believe in your gut to be wrong... but all you guys seem happy about it, proud of being in the dominant group, now you're just peer pressure and towing the company line.

I don't know... maybe I never was much to fit in around here... this company, shit, this country.

[43S/172E]

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-ne ... not-likely

Can workers who decline vaccination hold on to their jobs? Short answer: Not likely
"What's reasonable can vary. Having said that, we're still in a pandemic."
Author of the article:
Joanne Laucius
Publishing date:
Sep 27, 2021 • 1 minute ago •

Growing numbers of employers are introducing their own workplace vaccination policies that go above and beyond provincial regulations.
The Ottawa Hospital, The Perley and Rideau Veterans’ Health Centre, the Kingston Health Sciences Centre and the University Health Network in Toronto are among the health institutions that have policies that say unvaccinated staff will be suspended or dismissed.
But beyond this employers need to think about creating their own vaccine policies, said Patrick Stepanian, the legal manager at Peninsula Canada, a human resources consultant to small- and medium-sized employers, typically workplaces with between 20 and 40 employees. Of Peninsula’s 4,400 clients, about 70 per cent have asked about vaccination policies.
Aside from federally regulated industries such as airlines, almost every other business in Ontario falls under the provincial Employment Standards Act. Under the act, employers have the prerogative of choosing where employees work and generally setting the conditions of work, Stepanian said.
“An employee can say, ‘I don’t want to (be vaccinated).’ It’s a position that will lead quicker to the employee finding themselves without a job. At the end of the day, it runs counter to safety and public health,” Stepanian said. “There are consequences.”
Unless workers are under covered by a collective agreement, they can be dismissed for any reason at all, said employment lawyer and mediator Stuart Rudner, author of You’re Fired! Just Cause for Dismissal in Canada. This kind of dismissal is called “without cause,” and the worker is entitled to severance pay.
“You can be dismissed for any reason and no real reason at all. There’s nothing unlawful about it,” Rudner said.
Dismissal for “just cause” must be proven, but does not require a severance.
This raises the intriguing question of whether refusal to be vaccinated constitutes “just cause” for dismissal, Rudner said. A worker who refuses to abide by vaccination policy may be guilty of insubordination: failing to follow a rule or direction.
There would only be “just cause” for dismissal if the rule or direction was reasonable, and this would depend on the workplace scenario, he said.
While some employers may want to make vaccination a necessary condition of employment, they should first assess whether that’s reasonable, Stepanian said. Workplaces that can offer accommodations such as remote work would likely have a hard time justifying mandatory vaccination.
“What’s reasonable can vary. Having said that, we’re still in a pandemic.”
While health-care workplaces are obvious places for policies, there other workplaces where a policy is advisable, he said. There are scenarios where customers at a business, such as a restaurant, must produce proof of vaccination, but not the employees working there.
Employers should have a separate system in place to narrow the potential gap between unvaccinated employees and vaccinated customers, Stepanian said.
“It does create a potential for an absurd situation where an an unvaccinated person could, for example, be the gatekeeper.”
Policies can be modelled on the provincial government’s proof of vaccination guidelines for the general public or they can draft their own policies. If a new employee is working from home, it is advisable to tell them they will eventually be required to come into an office.
“Someone hired during the pandemic will think that working from home is the starting point,” Stepanian said.
Employers do not want to face human rights complaints, Rudner said, but medical and religious exemptions will apply to only a small number of employees.
So far, Ontario’s medical exemptions for vaccination against COVID-19 are limited to only two conditions: those who have an allergic reaction to a component of a vaccine, which must be confirmed by an allergist or immunologist; and those who have suffered from two kinds of heart inflammation, myocarditis or pericarditis, after receiving their first vaccine.
Religious exemptions are also likely to be limited.
The Ontario Human Rights Commission released a policy statement this past week saying that, while receiving a vaccine is voluntary, the commission’s position is that a person who chooses not to be vaccinated based on personal preference does not have the right to accommodation under the Ontario Human Rights Code.
The commission said it was not aware of any tribunal or court decision that found a singular belief against vaccinations or masks amounted to a creed within the meaning of the code.
“Even if a person could show they were denied a service or employment because of a creed-based belief against vaccinations, the duty to accommodate does not necessarily require they be exempted from vaccine mandates, certification or COVID testing requirements,” the Ontario Human Rights Commission said.
Sara Slinn, a law professor who teaches employment law at Osgoode Hall Law School, said she found the commission’s policy statement to be “quite strong.” The burden would be on the complainant to prove that is discrimination. They might have to provide textual evidence or an expert witness in a particular religion, she said.
“A person may have a personal code of behaviour, but that is not at the same level as a creed,” she said.
Will having a vaccination policy give an employer protection from litigation?
“I don’t know of anything that will give you 100 per cent protection. But there are steps that you can take to minimize your risk. I don’t know what the future may hold. People may file a court case. We don’t know where the chips will fall,” Stepanian said.
“There is so much confusion right now. If you’re an employer, you want your employees to know what you are doing to ensure their safety, especially if people have been away for a long time,” Rudner said.
“You want to let employees know what is expected of them. As long as everyone knows what’s expected of them, that’s fair.”

[imjustlurking]

Canada does as of August 13th 2021.

Government of Canada to require vaccination of federal workforce and federally regulated transportation sector

https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board ... ector.html

No, Canada does not.

They have not followed through.

If it were a legal requirement, would you comply ?

What in the vaccine has you so scared ?

If it were a legal requirement it would be a different conversation. People here are saying it's a legal requirement and the fact is that it's not.

I've done my personal risk analysis. This should be a personal choice. I may re-evaluate my position as new information comes available, but as it stands I personally don't want it. I support everyone in whatever their personal choices are though. There are also clearly alternatives. The company has ran a testing program for the last year. That's available at other workplaces that are seeking mandates.

I also reject the larger narrative surrounding covid, the population has been manipulated with fear. Propaganda and censorship are the norm. I'm not interested in following that trajectory.

Your employer has put out numerous, unambiguous communications that spell out the very serious consequences of not getting vaccinated. They've also said they're going to proceed with this policy regardless of what the government does.

You're looking at the weather map, trying to decipher the isobars. But if you look out the window, there's a big dark cloud with lots of lightning coming your way.

If your game plan is to challenge your employer's policy because the government hasn't passed specific legislation, well, bonne chance. The legal minds out there have said this policy will survive any challenge.

Which legal minds are those? Can you share that report? Every report ACPa legal gets says they'll fail so no surprise there. We always lose.

The company actually is very ambiguous about their policy, they are rushing it with a short time available to comply, MLOs and VPFOPS just parrot the policy but can't give any answers. Heck, the ACPA reps just parrot the company line...

They aren't even spelling out what accommodation means under the human rights code, or getting back to people on requests for accommodation as their deadline ticks away. When will the policy conclude? What's next after the first 2 shots? Will that be it? Why wasn't this discussed with my bargaining agent? Why are you going against what was stated 6 months ago by DS - "AC won't mandate vaccines."

Question for all you guys.
What do you feel you gain supporting the company over supporting your fellow line pilots?
I would go to the line for you guys, to support your personal choices, your values, your integrity, I would never want to see the screws put to you to do something you believe in your gut to be wrong... but all you guys seem happy about it, proud of being in the dominant group, now you're just peer pressure and towing the company line.

I don't know... maybe I never was much to fit in around here... this company, shit, this country.

ALPA commissioned their own report with very similar results.

[ant_321]

UNIFOR as well.

[737Maximilian]

I've done my personal risk analysis.

What research have you done? What background do you have that makes you feel more educated on the matter, contrary to the overwhelming majority of experts?

I also reject the larger narrative surrounding covid, the population has been manipulated with fear. Propaganda and censorship are the norm. I'm not interested in following that trajectory.

Alberta is overwhelmed, their doctors will soon need to start triaging patients. Children suffering from cancer have had their treatments delayed. If you're in Alberta and had in a serious car crash today, there is no guarantee there'd be a ICU bed available to you. These are the facts.

Question for all you guys.
What do you feel you gain supporting the company over supporting your fellow line pilots?
I would go to the line for you guys, to support your personal choices, your values, your integrity, I would never want to see the screws put to you to do something you believe in your gut to be wrong... but all you guys seem happy about it, proud of being in the dominant group, now you're just peer pressure and towing the company line.

It's not about towing the company line or screwing over fellow pilots. It is about getting our society back on track. I support anyone's personal choices, as long as they don't negatively affect those around them. In the case of refusing an extremely safe and effective vaccine in the midst of a global pandemic, that's exactly what you're doing.

Furthermore, I find your claim that we're not supporting our fellow pilots a little ironic. If anything, as a furloughed member, I'm the one not feeling supported by you. I desperately want my job back, but only way I will find myself back on property is through herd immunity by mass vaccination.

[imjustlurking]

I've done my personal risk analysis.

What research have you done? What background do you have that makes you feel more educated on the matter, contrary to the overwhelming majority of experts?

Facebook.

I also reject the larger narrative surrounding covid, the population has been manipulated with fear. Propaganda and censorship are the norm. I'm not interested in following that trajectory.

Alberta is overwhelmed, their doctors will soon need to start triaging patients. Children suffering from cancer have had their treatments delayed. If you're in Alberta and had in a serious car crash today, there is no guarantee there'd be a ICU bed available to you. These are the facts.
ou feel more educated on the matter, contrary to the overwhelming majority of experts?

They'll quote some random 'expert' who disagrees with the majority of other experts.

Question for all you guys.
What do you feel you gain supporting the company over supporting your fellow line pilots?
I would go to the line for you guys, to support your personal choices, your values, your integrity, I would never want to see the screws put to you to do something you believe in your gut to be wrong... but all you guys seem happy about it, proud of being in the dominant group, now you're just peer pressure and towing the company line.

It's not about towing the company line or screwing over fellow pilots. It is about getting our society back on track. I support anyone's personal choices, as long as they don't negatively affect those around them. In the case of refusing an extremely safe and effective vaccine in the midst of a global pandemic, that's exactly what you're doing.

Furthermore, I find your claim that we're not supporting our fellow pilots a little ironic. If anything, as a furloughed member, I'm the one not feeling supported by you. I desperately want my job back, but only way I will find myself back on property is through herd immunity by mass vaccination.

+1

[palebird]

The logic of the "vaccinated" completely misses the mark. You have been taken for a ride. You want everyone to follow the vax orders as this will supposedly protect everyone else. Guess what. It does not do anything regarding protecting your fellow citizens. If anything vaccinated people are more likely to carry the virus. The whole system is completely out of control and the politicians have allowed this to happen. Complete nonsense.
As far as towing the line to protect the population, well maybe nobody should drive a vehicle anymore..you know for the greater good. Maybe you should just stay home, you know, for the greater good. On and on it goes. It smells disturbingly like Marx, Lenin and Stalin. Get over yourselves people.Take a look at the Spartacus document being circulated and stop watching television.

[imjustlurking]

If anything vaccinated people are more likely to carry the virus.

That roughly translates to

I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'm going to say a bunch of things and hope that I'm right.

[TG]

That's your big picture altiplano:

It is about getting our society back on track.

And that:

The logic of the "vaccinated" completely misses the mark. You have been taken for a ride. You want everyone to follow the vax orders as this will supposedly protect everyone else. Guess what. It does not do anything regarding protecting your fellow citizens. If anything vaccinated people are more likely to carry the virus. The whole system is completely out of control and the politicians have allowed this to happen. Complete nonsense.
As far as towing the line to protect the population, well maybe nobody should drive a vehicle anymore..you know for the greater good. Maybe you should just stay home, you know, for the greater good. On and on it goes. It smells disturbingly like Marx, Lenin and Stalin. Get over yourselves people.Take a look at the Spartacus document being circulated and stop watching television.

Is another one stuck with the burnt-out landing gear indicator light.

[ikarus]

[/quote]
Is another one stuck with the burnt-out landing gear indicator light.
[/quote]

Maybe you are ... ??

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vacc ... 16-10abd6g

[pecessix]

Is another one stuck with the burnt-out landing gear indicator light.

You've got your two shots and you are still wearing a mask when asked to wear it. How stupid do you feel? You don't feel stupid at all. Why, because you are stupid...

Which vaccine company did you get your jab from?
- the one with $4.7 billion in fines for false claims, drug and medical safety violations, off label promotion, foreign corrupt practices, kickback and bribery (Pfizer)
- The one that has never brought a vax to market since it began in 2010, despite more than 9 vaccines candidates, none of which made it to phase 3 clinical trial (Moderna)
- the one that was ''paused'' by two dozen countries for severe adverse reactions like blood clots (Astra Zeneca)
- the one named in hundreds of lawsuits for toxic and/or dangerous products like baby powder, drugs, shampoo, surgical tools, and medical devices. (Johnson and Johnson)


You think you are a good person. People continue to confuse being obedient with being a good person. You are not a good person for following unscientific, morally corrupt rules... What you are is a coward.
Good people don't follow unjust laws, it's their disobedience to them, that creates positive changes.

If science and politic were never questioned, you'd still be drinking cocaine, giving kids cough syrup with heroin, spraying people with DDT, and smoking the cigarette brand your doctor recommended.

Also, in a real pandemic, hospital would not be firing qualified, experienced staff for declining a shot.

[ikarus]

+1

Fact checkers in coming in 3,2,1...

[TG]

0...

The f@cking Cowards are the one not taking their jabs... (Here is your fact)
I will retract that if you already took your vaccins and are just still complaining because your Naysayer religion is asking you to do so.
No thanks to be expected for wasting my time though...


(2 shots of Pfizer by the way and guess what, I'm ok)

[imjustlurking]

Is another one stuck with the burnt-out landing gear indicator light.

You've got your two shots and you are still wearing a mask when asked to wear it. How stupid do you feel? You don't feel stupid at all. Why, because you are stupid...

Which vaccine company did you get your jab from?
- the one with $4.7 billion in fines for false claims, drug and medical safety violations, off label promotion, foreign corrupt practices, kickback and bribery (Pfizer)
- The one that has never brought a vax to market since it began in 2010, despite more than 9 vaccines candidates, none of which made it to phase 3 clinical trial (Moderna)
- the one that was ''paused'' by two dozen countries for severe adverse reactions like blood clots (Astra Zeneca)
- the one named in hundreds of lawsuits for toxic and/or dangerous products like baby powder, drugs, shampoo, surgical tools, and medical devices. (Johnson and Johnson)


You think you are a good person. People continue to confuse being obedient with being a good person. You are not a good person for following unscientific, morally corrupt rules... What you are is a coward.
Good people don't follow unjust laws, it's their disobedience to them, that creates positive changes.

If science and politic were never questioned, you'd still be drinking cocaine, giving kids cough syrup with heroin, spraying people with DDT, and smoking the cigarette brand your doctor recommended.

Also, in a real pandemic, hospital would not be firing qualified, experienced staff for declining a shot.

Here's a quick lesson on pandemics and vaccines.

Viruses spread by infecting a host, having them replicate the virus, and then spread it. In the case of COVID, it's spread through the moisture from our breath.

Vaccines teach your body how to produce antibodies before you get sick. The direct result of this is if you are infected, your body can produce a response quicker, leading to less virus being reproduced. You would experience this as a lesser duration and severity of symptoms.

Having a lesser severity prevents you from unnecessarily taking up space in hospitals, and the shorter duration reduces the number of people you can possible expose the virus to.


If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I will answer them respectfully.

False statements will be met with light hostility.

[pecessix]

Having a lesser severity prevents you from unnecessarily taking up space in hospitals

How much did we spend to develop those vaccines? Why didn't we put this money in hospitals?? They would have plenty of space, with equipment and staff. To treat covid and everything else.
The vaccine is part of the solution, but it's not the only one... Look at the treatments they are using in other countries.
What if we realized in the future that covid vaccines are more dangerous than we thought?
Unvaccinated people can still get vaccinated if we realized it's the best solution (once we are 100% sure of it). But, if vaccines are more dangerous than we thought (especially in the long term), what is the plan B for vaccinated people???

5 of my friends suffered from strokes or heart attacks after getting their vaccines this summer, but «it's only a coincidence», of course.
I don't want to try, I'll wait till we are sure those vaccines are not that bad, or when we have better vaccines.

[imjustlurking]

Having a lesser severity prevents you from unnecessarily taking up space in hospitals

How much did we spend to develop those vaccines? Why didn't we put this money in hospitals?? They would have plenty of space, with equipment and staff. To treat covid and everything else.

That's like saying "How much did we spend on investigating plane crashes and issuing ADs? Why didn't we put that money into Crash and Fire Rescue? They would be able to help in the event of an accident."

The best defense is a good offense.

[accountant]

5 of my friends suffered from strokes or heart attacks after getting their vaccines this summer, but «it's only a coincidence», of course.
I don't want to try, I'll wait till we are sure those vaccines are not that bad, or when we have better vaccines.

How many of those friends ate like crap during covid, increased their alcohol intake, and were sitting on their butts?

Most I know who had issues --- already had underlying issues --- and / or vices that just blew up in their face.

[ikarus]

5 of my friends suffered from strokes or heart attacks after getting their vaccines this summer, but «it's only a coincidence», of course.
I don't want to try, I'll wait till we are sure those vaccines are not that bad, or when we have better vaccines.

How many of those friends ate like crap during covid, increased their alcohol intake, and were sitting on their butts?

Most I know who had issues --- already had underlying issues --- and / or vices that just blew up in their face.

Are you serious?? So why didn't someone (who makes and sells the vaccines) tell these folks to maybe hold on as it could "blow up in their face".??! Smh...

[palebird]

"That's like saying "How much did we spend on investigating plane crashes and issuing ADs? Why didn't we put that money into Crash and Fire Rescue? They would be able to help in the event of an accident."

The best defense is a good offense."

Not at all. The best defense is having a clear understanding of what you are dealing with. And it is very obvious for anyone who cares to look outside the box that we are being led down the garden path.

[Posthumane]

How much did we spend to develop those vaccines? Why didn't we put this money in hospitals?? They would have plenty of space, with equipment and staff. To treat covid and everything else.

Canada's total commitment for covid vaccines, including procurement, logistics, future follow on contracts, and vaccine donations to poorer countries, is approx $9 bil. The total procurement cost of the vaccines currently distributed in Canada is about $1.5 bil. Canada's healthcare costs in 2019 were approx $265 bil. CIHI estimated the cost of covid hospitalizations up to March 2021 in 9 Canadian provinces (excl Quebec) was $1 bil.

[737Maximilian]

You've got your two shots and you are still wearing a mask when asked to wear it. How stupid do you feel?

I don't feel stupid at all. I'm cognizant of the fact that, despite being double vaccinated, there is a small chance I could catch and transmit COVID. I wear the mask to protect those around me. Small actions have a big affect when multiplied across the entire population.

You think you are a good person. People continue to confuse being obedient with being a good person.

Do you seriously think this is some sort of mass virtue signalling? COVID has been proven to be a fairly dangerous disease; look no further than Alberta as an example. I choose to get vaccinated to ensure our health system isn't overwhelmed, based on the advice of virtually all health experts in the field.

Good people don't follow unjust laws, it's their disobedience to them, that creates positive changes

That depends largely on the situation, and how you define unjust. Trying to protect people in the midst of a global pandemic is something almost all legal experts have already agreed upon as lawful.

If science and politic were never questioned

You're conflating unrelated issues here, and I'm not sure you understand the distinction. A scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation, mutually agreed upon within the scientific community. We have quantitative proof these vaccines are extremely safe and highly effective. I'm not sure what else you're looking for? If we cannot agree on scientific fact such as this, we're lost as a society.

Why didn't we put this money in hospitals

Even if they could create the ICU capacity to totally withdraw all restrictions, do you realize how many surplus deaths would still occur? Do you seriously thing this is a moral plan?

Look at the treatments they are using in other countries.

Why? We already have an extremely effective treatment here, and that's called the vaccine. The issue we're facing is purely due to those choosing not to take it.

What if we realized in the future that covid vaccines are more dangerous than we thought?

In the history of all vaccine production, please show me a single one where major side effects were discovered over one month after vaccine administration. We're now close to six to nine months into the mass vaccination process, where hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated. If there were any major side effects, they would've been discovered by now. In fact, these have proven to be one of the safest vaccines ever created.

once we are 100% sure of it

Again, not really sure where that threshold is for you. We have quantitative proof these vaccines are extremely safe and effective.

5 of my friends suffered from strokes or heart attacks after getting their vaccines this summer, but «it's only a coincidence.

You're falling into the the anecdotal fallacy now. We have quantitative data proving this isn't true.

And it is very obvious for anyone who cares to look outside the box that we are being led down the garden path.

What background do you have that leads you to believe you know more than the vast majority of experts, who've spend their entire professional lives working in this field?

[montado]

Max a Zillion is absolutely correct about masks. I wear a condom all the time. This way I know I won’t accidentally get him pregnant if I cross paths with him. We should all wear condoms all the time. If you don’t you are selfish! The risk is low but science shows mandatory condom wearing prevents pregnancy.

Asymptomatic erections are a thing.

[737Maximilian]

Make all the jokes you want montado. I just had a coworker die of the disease last night, after deciding not to get vaccinated. If we can reduce the number of unnecessary deaths by even one through collectively masking up, so be it. It's an extremely easy thing to do.

That said, best bet: go get vaccinated.