Sunwing/Westjet

[Joeschumer]

Per diem isn’t a part of the T4 earnings in the arbitrators write up. (Per diem is not recorded on T4s) If it was, every single Sunwing pilot would make even more than what he saw, many make 20k in perdiem per year from deployments.

The fact is that the average sunwing pilot makes more annual income than WJ pilots and many will take a pay cut going to Westjet.

Yes, and remind me again how you got those pay rates? Subtract 30% and tell me who is higher paid.

Per diem isn’t salary.

The years of service point is due to pilots upgrading at a lower YOS than those at WJ.

The highest paid pilot isn’t a SWG pilot working 6-8 days per month. It is someone working a ton of OT, which just isn’t something some folks want to do.

again.....
"However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet

you are reading the whole thing aren't you? and feel free to argue with my wife on per diem isn't salary. Still appears in our bank account. And again, I probably did 5 days of overtime last year. hardly a ton of OT. What appears in our bank account is my qualifier, it may not be yours. you could be paid $1000 an hour for all I care, but if your employer deducts 900, does that 1000 really mean anything?

Per diem is not salary. Yes it appears in your bank account, just like how the money it is intended to replace leaves your bank account. Per diem is intended to be an offset, not a gain. Do you fast on your layovers?

I’m not looking to get into an argument of who makes what, I just don’t want you to forget how you got there in the first place when you (not you personally) start saying things like “we wish we were staying separate”. That makes you sound like it want to have your cake and eat it too. The two go hand in hand. No one is stopping anyone from looking for that 6-8 day per month job at 45% less earnings.

[cdnavater]

Handover is referring to deployment allocation, not per diem. Maritimer is leaving out the fact that CBA 4 was negotiated during the pandemic when the airline was shuttered. There wasn’t exactly much leverage in negotiating when all the pilots were laid off. Sunwing pilots were given the Westjet payscale + a couple percent in an agreement to drop a bargaining in bad faith claim when it became obvious that Sunwing was in talks with Westjet to sell the airline before COVID-19 and it wasn’t disclosed during the contract negotiations.

Devils advocate here, so the pay increase is a direct result of the fact WJ was buying Sunwing, correct?
What a reasonable person would see, if it weren’t for that fact, there would be no bargaining in bad faith claim, therefore no WJ pay scale plus a couple percent. What leverage did you have if not for that claim?
The other thing that should be addressed, the arbitrator saw that the quick upgrades at Sunwing were not guaranteed to continue, there was no growth planned and you were already heavy on Captains due to the deployments, so half the pilots were not Captains and will not likely be delayed because again, without growth, upgrades were due to attrition. When they do upgrade, they will now benefit from their YOS in the right seat, huge bonus.
I personally have no skin in this game but I think maybe the Sunwing pilots are a little ungrateful at the result, it definitely favoured your group!

[PilotSs]

Is it too late to get them to bring unifor over with them?

*paragraph 42 on page 19 of "WestJet_Sunwing_IPSL_October_30_2024_AWARD.pdf".

However, if one compares pilots at the two airlines based on their years of service, pilots at Sunwing, on average, earn more annual income than pilots at WestJet. Indeed, the highest earning pilot amongst both groups, based on 2023 T4 earnings, is a Sunwing pilot with approximately 8 ½ less years of service than the most senior WestJet 787 pilot.

It might have been better for everyone. Sunwing pilots lost out big time both in terms of QOL and renumeration in this deal. There is a feeling of a death in the family currently at sunwing. Yeah, it is what it is

The arbitration is about seniority not QOL you used to have at a previous employer. Sunwing is no longer a viable company as was said in the arbitration. Sunwing was in an unrecoverable amount of debt and would no longer exist in short order. The previous sked or OT you had at a company that was due to go bankrupt should have meant nothing in terms of the arbitration, but for whatever reason the arbitrator took it in to consideration and rewarded the sunwing pilots with huge gains.

If a sunwing pilot doesn’t see how fortunate they are with this arbitration, there is no hope.

[Joeschumer]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Handover is referring to deployment allocation, not per diem. Maritimer is leaving out the fact that CBA 4 was negotiated during the pandemic when the airline was shuttered. There wasn’t exactly much leverage in negotiating when all the pilots were laid off. Sunwing pilots were given the Westjet payscale + a couple percent in an agreement to drop a bargaining in bad faith claim when it became obvious that Sunwing was in talks with Westjet to sell the airline before COVID-19 and it wasn’t disclosed during the contract negotiations.

Devils advocate here, so the pay increase is a direct result of the fact WJ was buying Sunwing, correct?
What a reasonable person would see, if it weren’t for that fact, there would be no bargaining in bad faith claim, therefore no WJ pay scale plus a couple percent. What leverage did you have if not for that claim?
The other thing that should be addressed, the arbitrator saw that the quick upgrades at Sunwing were not guaranteed to continue, there was no growth planned and you were already heavy on Captains due to the deployments, so half the pilots were not Captains and will not likely be delayed because again, without growth, upgrades were due to attrition. When they do upgrade, they will now benefit from their YOS in the right seat, huge bonus.
I personally have no skin in this game but I think maybe the Sunwing pilots are a little ungrateful at the result, it definitely favoured your group!

[Canadaflyer46]

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

[PilotSs]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Handover is referring to deployment allocation, not per diem. Maritimer is leaving out the fact that CBA 4 was negotiated during the pandemic when the airline was shuttered. There wasn’t exactly much leverage in negotiating when all the pilots were laid off. Sunwing pilots were given the Westjet payscale + a couple percent in an agreement to drop a bargaining in bad faith claim when it became obvious that Sunwing was in talks with Westjet to sell the airline before COVID-19 and it wasn’t disclosed during the contract negotiations.

Devils advocate here, so the pay increase is a direct result of the fact WJ was buying Sunwing, correct?
What a reasonable person would see, if it weren’t for that fact, there would be no bargaining in bad faith claim, therefore no WJ pay scale plus a couple percent. What leverage did you have if not for that claim?
The other thing that should be addressed, the arbitrator saw that the quick upgrades at Sunwing were not guaranteed to continue, there was no growth planned and you were already heavy on Captains due to the deployments, so half the pilots were not Captains and will not likely be delayed because again, without growth, upgrades were due to attrition. When they do upgrade, they will now benefit from their YOS in the right seat, huge bonus.
I personally have no skin in this game but I think maybe the Sunwing pilots are a little ungrateful at the result, it definitely favoured your group!

Grateful for a job?

[cdnavater]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Handover is referring to deployment allocation, not per diem. Maritimer is leaving out the fact that CBA 4 was negotiated during the pandemic when the airline was shuttered. There wasn’t exactly much leverage in negotiating when all the pilots were laid off. Sunwing pilots were given the Westjet payscale + a couple percent in an agreement to drop a bargaining in bad faith claim when it became obvious that Sunwing was in talks with Westjet to sell the airline before COVID-19 and it wasn’t disclosed during the contract negotiations.

Devils advocate here, so the pay increase is a direct result of the fact WJ was buying Sunwing, correct?
What a reasonable person would see, if it weren’t for that fact, there would be no bargaining in bad faith claim, therefore no WJ pay scale plus a couple percent. What leverage did you have if not for that claim?
The other thing that should be addressed, the arbitrator saw that the quick upgrades at Sunwing were not guaranteed to continue, there was no growth planned and you were already heavy on Captains due to the deployments, so half the pilots were not Captains and will not likely be delayed because again, without growth, upgrades were due to attrition. When they do upgrade, they will now benefit from their YOS in the right seat, huge bonus.
I personally have no skin in this game but I think maybe the Sunwing pilots are a little ungrateful at the result, it definitely favoured your group!

Again, you would have been bargaining from a position of much less leverage, from a much lower starting point if WJ did not purchase Sunwing, you think a company that laid all of you off wouldn’t have had a contingency plan for having lift while you walked!
Relative seniority of a much bigger list means more below you than before, let’s face it, how many pilots left WJ for Sunwing, how about the other way, willing to be the list is much bigger going West!
I think you should be grateful it wasn’t DOH, your relative seniority would have been much worse, not going to argue about whether or not it was better for you that WJ bought Sunwing

[nohojob]

just a question regarding potential downgrade for swg captains in a year:
Unless there is a base reduction or closure, where does it say in wj contract that captains could downgraded ?

[ant_321]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Devils advocate here, so the pay increase is a direct result of the fact WJ was buying Sunwing, correct?
What a reasonable person would see, if it weren’t for that fact, there would be no bargaining in bad faith claim, therefore no WJ pay scale plus a couple percent. What leverage did you have if not for that claim?
The other thing that should be addressed, the arbitrator saw that the quick upgrades at Sunwing were not guaranteed to continue, there was no growth planned and you were already heavy on Captains due to the deployments, so half the pilots were not Captains and will not likely be delayed because again, without growth, upgrades were due to attrition. When they do upgrade, they will now benefit from their YOS in the right seat, huge bonus.
I personally have no skin in this game but I think maybe the Sunwing pilots are a little ungrateful at the result, it definitely favoured your group!

Again, you would have been bargaining from a position of much less leverage, from a much lower starting point if WJ did not purchase Sunwing, you think a company that laid all of you off wouldn’t have had a contingency plan for having lift while you walked!
Relative seniority of a much bigger list means more below you than before, let’s face it, how many pilots left WJ for Sunwing, how about the other way, willing to be the list is much bigger going West!
I think you should be grateful it wasn’t DOH, your relative seniority would have been much worse, not going to argue about whether or not it was better for you that WJ bought Sunwing

I don’t know the exact number of pilots who went from Sunwing to Westjet, but I personally can only think of one. I do know 3 that left Westjet for Sunwing and now will be going back. Anyone who has ever read through any arbitrator’s decisions know that DOH was never even on the table. I wasn’t the least bit concerned about it.

[PilotSs]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Again, you would have been bargaining from a position of much less leverage, from a much lower starting point if WJ did not purchase Sunwing, you think a company that laid all of you off wouldn’t have had a contingency plan for having lift while you walked!
Relative seniority of a much bigger list means more below you than before, let’s face it, how many pilots left WJ for Sunwing, how about the other way, willing to be the list is much bigger going West!
I think you should be grateful it wasn’t DOH, your relative seniority would have been much worse, not going to argue about whether or not it was better for you that WJ bought Sunwing

I don’t know the exact number of pilots who went from Sunwing to Westjet, but I personally can only think of one. I do know 3 that left Westjet for Sunwing and now will be going back. Anyone who has ever read through any arbitrator’s decisions know that DOH was never even on the table. I wasn’t the least bit concerned about it.

I can name at least 3 that were fired or on the brink of being fired from Westjet that went to sunwing. I can also name at least 5 that didn’t have WJ min requirements that went to sunwings

[cdnavater]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Again, you would have been bargaining from a position of much less leverage, from a much lower starting point if WJ did not purchase Sunwing, you think a company that laid all of you off wouldn’t have had a contingency plan for having lift while you walked!
Relative seniority of a much bigger list means more below you than before, let’s face it, how many pilots left WJ for Sunwing, how about the other way, willing to be the list is much bigger going West!
I think you should be grateful it wasn’t DOH, your relative seniority would have been much worse, not going to argue about whether or not it was better for you that WJ bought Sunwing

I don’t know the exact number of pilots who went from Sunwing to Westjet, but I personally can only think of one. I do know 3 that left Westjet for Sunwing and now will be going back. Anyone who has ever read through any arbitrator’s decisions know that DOH was never even on the table. I wasn’t the least bit concerned about it.

Ok, fair enough however, where were they going, according to what I read, the 5 year upgrade was strictly due to attrition, obviously pilots were leaving.
It does seem the ISL awards typically favour the younger company, trying to keep relative seniority of a much younger company has only one way to do that, increase seniority of the pilots of the younger company.
I do wonder how it would go in a merger of more or less equal companies, equal age, pilot rosters, etc

[Joeschumer]

If you’d take a look at the seniority list floating around it has projected losses and gains. Almost all gains are for WJ pilots and it marginally affects upgrade times, and almost all sunwing pilots STILL lose pay and captain years. Not sure where Westjet pilots think they will have 15 year upgrades because of this award. The proof is in the pudding just read it.

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

[Joeschumer]

I would actually be willing to bet more have left Westjet to go to Sunwing than the other way around. I know of at least 6 and only 1 that left Sunwing to go to Westjet.

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Devils advocate here, so the pay increase is a direct result of the fact WJ was buying Sunwing, correct?
What a reasonable person would see, if it weren’t for that fact, there would be no bargaining in bad faith claim, therefore no WJ pay scale plus a couple percent. What leverage did you have if not for that claim?
The other thing that should be addressed, the arbitrator saw that the quick upgrades at Sunwing were not guaranteed to continue, there was no growth planned and you were already heavy on Captains due to the deployments, so half the pilots were not Captains and will not likely be delayed because again, without growth, upgrades were due to attrition. When they do upgrade, they will now benefit from their YOS in the right seat, huge bonus.
I personally have no skin in this game but I think maybe the Sunwing pilots are a little ungrateful at the result, it definitely favoured your group!

Again, you would have been bargaining from a position of much less leverage, from a much lower starting point if WJ did not purchase Sunwing, you think a company that laid all of you off wouldn’t have had a contingency plan for having lift while you walked!
Relative seniority of a much bigger list means more below you than before, let’s face it, how many pilots left WJ for Sunwing, how about the other way, willing to be the list is much bigger going West!
I think you should be grateful it wasn’t DOH, your relative seniority would have been much worse, not going to argue about whether or not it was better for you that WJ bought Sunwing

[eyebrow737]

Again, you would have been bargaining from a position of much less leverage, from a much lower starting point if WJ did not purchase Sunwing, you think a company that laid all of you off wouldn’t have had a contingency plan for having lift while you walked!
Relative seniority of a much bigger list means more below you than before, let’s face it, how many pilots left WJ for Sunwing, how about the other way, willing to be the list is much bigger going West!
I think you should be grateful it wasn’t DOH, your relative seniority would have been much worse, not going to argue about whether or not it was better for you that WJ bought Sunwing

I don’t know the exact number of pilots who went from Sunwing to Westjet, but I personally can only think of one. I do know 3 that left Westjet for Sunwing and now will be going back. Anyone who has ever read through any arbitrator’s decisions know that DOH was never even on the table. I wasn’t the least bit concerned about it.

Ok, fair enough however, where were they going, according to what I read, the 5 year upgrade was strictly due to attrition, obviously pilots were leaving.
It does seem the ISL awards typically favour the younger company, trying to keep relative seniority of a much younger company has only one way to do that, increase seniority of the pilots of the younger company.
I do wonder how it would go in a merger of more or less equal companies, equal age, pilot rosters, etc

We have quite the large influx of ex sunwing pilots here at AC. I'm guessing that is where they went.

[MaxAuto]

If you’d take a look at the seniority list floating around it has projected losses and gains. Almost all gains are for WJ pilots and it marginally affects upgrade times, and almost all sunwing pilots STILL lose pay and captain years. Not sure where Westjet pilots think they will have 15 year upgrades because of this award. The proof is in the pudding just read it.

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

Exactly thank you. 4:1 All the middle of the pack WestJet FOs who were next up for upgrade are still middle of the pack for the most part who will take most of the upgrades with a few SW FOs here and there.

This hardly effects WestJet pilots. It's business as usual.
As SW pilots trickle over you won't even feel the difference. The arbitrator award prevented a larger group from clobbering a smaller group. It's that simple.

Why do WJ pilots feel there was something to get out of this if you feel you're the ones saving SW pilots.

I personally was indifferent about the merger. I'm fine either way. I look forward to my new the future at WestJet.

[ads-b]

Sunwing no longer exists. Arbitration is over. We’re all on the same team. Let’s move this along.

I’m happy to be a westjet pilot.

[CaptDukeNukem]

It’s really a shock that only about 6-10 % of words actually make up such a small percentage of commutation. Things like tone of voice or actual body language read so much into this.

This is off topic, but such a widespread held belief that it needs to be addressed. This whole '90% of communication is non verbal' that instructors love to bring up in CRM courses is just ridiculously false for that application. All that 'research' stems back to 1 scientific paper, that basically tried to figure out how people perceive emotions based on the subject speaking one word. Subjects were shown the picture of a man/woman and were asked to identify the emotion. Then they were asked to do the same based on audio recordings of the man/woman saying one word. Based on this particular test scenario, the results based on pictures were more accurate, eventually incorrecty or incompletely leading to the conclusion that 90% of communication is non verbal.

More explanation and links to source material: https://blog.donders.ru.nl/?p=12172&lang=en

Carry on though.

And even more into the weeds, you aren't talking about the same thing...
CaptDukeNukem is clearly discussing "commutation" something to do with judicial sentences, or maybe electrical engineering...

Turns out you have the hit the right keys in the right order for the phone to actually type things you are trying to write

[Handover]

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

Attitudes like what? Ungrateful? Who should we be grateful to? It's that attitude that is stirring the pot over here. You also realise that there were plenty of FOs just about to get an upgrade at SWG that now may have to wait an extra 8-10 years as well right? Not what a lot of people signed up for. I feel for your guys, I do, however don't stand there and tell us we should be grateful. It comes across as more than a little bit arrogant

[cdnavater]

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

Attitudes like what? Ungrateful? Who should we be grateful to? It's that attitude that is stirring the pot over here. You also realise that there were plenty of FOs just about to get an upgrade at SWG that now may have to wait an extra 8-10 years as well right? Not what a lot of people signed up for. I feel for your guys, I do, however don't stand there and tell us we should be grateful. It comes across as more than a little bit arrogant

So, maybe you should think about going to where you will be happy, the ship that bought Sunwing and merged it into Westjet has sailed!

[Stratopaused]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Sunwing pilots are now getting WestJet hourly rates, but still have the Sunwing contract with things like 2x OT and the same schedule until they're moved to WestJet. Every single Sunwing pilot hired before March 2022 was placed above WestJet pilots who had earlier dates of hire than them, in some cases by as much as three years. You were already making more than WestJet pilots, now you're going to be making even more than that by getting the best parts of both contracts, and you're going to be getting all the advantages of seniority, but you're still not happy?!

[pelmet]

Ungrateful? Not sure what SWG pilots should be grateful of.
The right to bargain next month was taken away hence pay raise opportunity and contract improvements gone. deployments are gone, SWG pilots will now operate under a contract that is at the same time marginally better and worse in different areas, some captains may be downgraded next year when protections wear off, plus the opportunity to operate with archaic SOPs at WJ, and on top of that all SWG pilots have lost relative seniority with an average of probably a 10% loss.

So what is there to be grateful of again?

Sunwing pilots are now getting WestJet hourly rates, but still have the Sunwing contract with things like 2x OT and the same schedule until they're moved to WestJet. Every single Sunwing pilot hired before March 2022 was placed above WestJet pilots who had earlier dates of hire than them, in some cases by as much as three years. You were already making more than WestJet pilots, now you're going to be making even more than that by getting the best parts of both contracts, and you're going to be getting all the advantages of seniority, but you're still not happy?!

Sounds like the amount of income that SW pilots will be getting per hour of work has decreased by a lot. That can be interpreted as meaning you are making less money or working twice as hard to make 10% more. Is that a raise? Maybe they should be given the option of making less and working the same schedule.

If a bunch of SW senior F/O's were about to go captain and now have to wait many years, is that a raise?

[mijbil]

Anyhow still better than flogging around North America doing 5-6 sectors like the WS slaves. This really is a great lifestyle company overall.

I keep seeing these myths about WS pilots flying 16 full days a month, slogging 5-6 sectors. While no doubt Sunwing has some nice scheduling perks, it can't be overstated how far off such myths are re: WS. Anecdotally, I seldom fly more than 8 - 11 days a month and typically do only single day turns, so 2 legs per day. I don't recall a single month since I have worked here where I was blocked the full 16 days our contract allows. Multi-day pairings usually have 1-3 sector days, although there are some with 4 sectors, but few and far between. It can hardly be called the norm. Take it for what it's worth.

Well, now that the arbitrator has ruled and the fur is still flying about the actual seniority list will look like, some of the guys are digging into what an actual WS sked looks like. To be fair some looks OK but it's gems like this one that are serious detractors to QOL. As has been said multiple times and will be repeated ad nauseum in 1000's of cockpit conversations, WG was (and is for this winter and MAYBE next summer) a lifestyle company. We fly one maybe 2 sectors to the sun in general. In summers we lay around on reserve or on holidays. Holidays in summers are encouraged since winter is our $$$ season. Or we go to Europe for the mother of all travel benefits. To be fair I will like the return of MyIDtravel for the family like we had at 5T. The best answer I heard about why WG never pulled the trigger on it is because the previous president, Mark Williams, hates pilots. Ah, that makes sense. Anyhow, I'll see how it goes. As I said 2 or 2.5 years ago, if WS sucks, I am done. I was called "entitled" IIRC. Absolutely I am. Just like any filthy federal blackfaced liberal, I am 'entitled to my entitlements" (David Dingwall if you want the actual verbatim quote). So, I'll see how it goes. A sked like this just "licks the love pump" (Spinal tap for those not from the last century like me).

13.5 hours credit for 8 sectors in 2 days? Compared with about 14 hours for YVR to CUN in 2 sectors with a swim in the morning in the tropics? Hmmm

-TSRA, I am glad to hear that it's not all dogballs but two days like this as an indicator of what's to come does not look too attractive. Those who really dug through it said that there are lots of days like this.

[mijbil]

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

Attitudes like what? Ungrateful? Who should we be grateful to? It's that attitude that is stirring the pot over here. You also realise that there were plenty of FOs just about to get an upgrade at SWG that now may have to wait an extra 8-10 years as well right? Not what a lot of people signed up for. I feel for your guys, I do, however don't stand there and tell us we should be grateful. It comes across as more than a little bit arrogant

Bang on Handover. For Canada Flyer with regard to your WS archaic SOPs, we have some memo out for the new (actually really old) SOPs from WS. I read it and could see the 73A (-200) era SOPs in there as well as some RCAF type calls. I am told that the WS SOPs came from First Air who got theirs from Canadian Pacific. Not sure if that is correct, but they are a bit cumbersome at times. The ones at WG were converted from so-called "Green Sheets" to basically match the Boeing FCTM a few years back. Green Sheets were written back when WG started. Who wrote them I'm not sure but at some point it was decided to match up with what the airplane manufacturer recommended rather than something that quotes Admiral Horatio Nelson. Oh wait that's the Navy but you get the idea. Stick to simple and modern that utilizes all the available tools and promotes LESS talking below 1000' rather than the verbal diarrhea that is now our reality.
Pity the WS standards and training department did not use this merge as a golden opportunity to modernise.
You do know that VNAV can be armed on the ground at the gate? The wing will not separate from the fuselage if VNAV is engaged below 3000 AGL on departure.
Tell me what has fewer syllables: "Manual Flight" or "Auto throttle disengaged - Auto pilot disengaged".
At 1000' PF (or PM) calls "Stable" OR at 1000' "Check set MA ---> XXXX' set ---> stable (or GA). Hmmmmm. All thats missing is hearing the landing clearance.
You do know that there are other ways to do things?
Fun times ahead I am sure.

[Canadaflyer46]

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

Attitudes like what? Ungrateful? Who should we be grateful to? It's that attitude that is stirring the pot over here. You also realise that there were plenty of FOs just about to get an upgrade at SWG that now may have to wait an extra 8-10 years as well right? Not what a lot of people signed up for. I feel for your guys, I do, however don't stand there and tell us we should be grateful. It comes across as more than a little bit arrogant

Bang on Handover. For Canada Flyer with regard to your WS archaic SOPs, we have some memo out for the new (actually really old) SOPs from WS. I read it and could see the 73A (-200) era SOPs in there as well as some RCAF type calls. I am told that the WS SOPs came from First Air who got theirs from Canadian Pacific. Not sure if that is correct, but they are a bit cumbersome at times. The ones at WG were converted from so-called "Green Sheets" to basically match the Boeing FCTM a few years back. Green Sheets were written back when WG started. Who wrote them I'm not sure but at some point it was decided to match up with what the airplane manufacturer recommended rather than something that quotes Admiral Horatio Nelson. Oh wait that's the Navy but you get the idea. Stick to simple and modern that utilizes all the available tools and promotes LESS talking below 1000' rather than the verbal diarrhea that is now our reality.
Pity the WS standards and training department did not use this merge as a golden opportunity to modernise.
You do know that VNAV can be armed on the ground at the gate? The wing will not separate from the fuselage if VNAV is engaged below 3000 AGL on departure.
Tell me what has fewer syllables: "Manual Flight" or "Auto throttle disengaged - Auto pilot disengaged".
At 1000' PF (or PM) calls "Stable" OR at 1000' "Check set MA ---> XXXX' set ---> stable (or GA). Hmmmmm. All thats missing is hearing the landing clearance.
You do know that there are other ways to do things?
Fun times ahead I am sure.

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

Attitudes like what? Ungrateful? Who should we be grateful to? It's that attitude that is stirring the pot over here. You also realise that there were plenty of FOs just about to get an upgrade at SWG that now may have to wait an extra 8-10 years as well right? Not what a lot of people signed up for. I feel for your guys, I do, however don't stand there and tell us we should be grateful. It comes across as more than a little bit arrogant

Bang on Handover. For Canada Flyer with regard to your WS archaic SOPs, we have some memo out for the new (actually really old) SOPs from WS. I read it and could see the 73A (-200) era SOPs in there as well as some RCAF type calls. I am told that the WS SOPs came from First Air who got theirs from Canadian Pacific. Not sure if that is correct, but they are a bit cumbersome at times. The ones at WG were converted from so-called "Green Sheets" to basically match the Boeing FCTM a few years back. Green Sheets were written back when WG started. Who wrote them I'm not sure but at some point it was decided to match up with what the airplane manufacturer recommended rather than something that quotes Admiral Horatio Nelson. Oh wait that's the Navy but you get the idea. Stick to simple and modern that utilizes all the available tools and promotes LESS talking below 1000' rather than the verbal diarrhea that is now our reality.
Pity the WS standards and training department did not use this merge as a golden opportunity to modernise.
You do know that VNAV can be armed on the ground at the gate? The wing will not separate from the fuselage if VNAV is engaged below 3000 AGL on departure.
Tell me what has fewer syllables: "Manual Flight" or "Auto throttle disengaged - Auto pilot disengaged".
At 1000' PF (or PM) calls "Stable" OR at 1000' "Check set MA ---> XXXX' set ---> stable (or GA). Hmmmmm. All thats missing is hearing the landing clearance.
You do know that there are other ways to do things?
Fun times ahead I am sure.

Hey I am 100% in agreement that our SOPS our outdated and desperately need an overhaul. Most of it dates back the Classic and bush league philosophy from the founding fathers. Personally I’m excited that the merger will bring about a modernization of our SOPs finally.
My point was that complaining about new SOPs while many Sunwing pilots are leapfrogging 4 years of seniority seems a bit tactless. Of course I’m biased, but WJ pilots got absolutely nothing out of this merger. All losses. Usually an arbitrator will split the groups evenly in their displeasure. I am relieved our MEC is seeking a judicial review with our legal team.
For the record I hold no ill will towards the Sunwing pilots, like most pilots here, my anger is directed at our merger committee who pretended to be an arbitrator in their proposals instead of sticking up for all of us 100% like the Sunwing committee did.

[tik1]

Of course I’m biased, but WJ pilots got absolutely nothing out of this merger. All losses. Usually an arbitrator will split the groups evenly in their displeasure. I am relieved our MEC is seeking a judicial review with our legal team.
For the record I hold no ill will towards the Sunwing pilots, like most pilots here, my anger is directed at our merger committee who pretended to be an arbitrator in their proposals instead of sticking up for all of us 100% like the Sunwing committee did.

I would have to disagree that all losses are absorbed by WJ. Both sides had losses and gains and that's inevitable in any merger.

I will miss our flying.
Summer EU flying - Amsterdam, Warsaw, Prague, UK, Palma, Tenerife, Fuerteventura.
Winter flying - You could be home every day, home by 2PM, you could have bankers hours, start late/end late, you could do 1 leg days and layover somewhere hot, sipping Sprite at the tiki bar.

What I won't miss, 1-3 hours TSAT delays for missing slot.

The positives:
WJ is now the largest tour operator in Canada with the exclusive rights to some great resorts. That's where the growth could come from. Meaning more planes, more pilots in addition to what SWG is already doing. Potentially faster movement if Boeing can deliver. SWG has about 40 planes worth of winter work every year as a baseline.

I don't think WJ has lost 100%, to the contrary it seems like the arbiter concluded that WJ MEC alternative #1 proposal with some tweaks was the best.

When we fly together next year, CRM will be fine.
Whether we like it or not, our futures are now interlinked, but luckily the future is still unwritten.