Why?
You pretty well summed it up.
" There are some truely nice (and experienced) inspectors on staff. That being said, there are some a$$holes there too. Just like in any office. "
One thing you forgot to add is in industry the a$$holes can be fired...
...in TC they are protected.
Cat
NavAir Grounded in YYC???
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
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Cat Driver
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I don't know much about Navair, but I have a little over a thousand hours in an MU-2 and I know it's a skeery beast even when everything is working correctly. On a one-hour flight, a person would re-trim all three axes hundreds of times. I'm not kidding. If the trims were in any way screwed up, things could very quickly escalate out of control. That's all I know.
When I did my initial training on the MU-2, we did some out-of-trim stuff, and the plane is controllable, but it's on the very, very thin edge of the wedge. I wouldn't want to venture a guess as to what might happen if this was discovered on take-off, but I bet it wouldn't be pretty. During training we were anticipating it and we still nearly rolled over on our backs.
When I did my initial training on the MU-2, we did some out-of-trim stuff, and the plane is controllable, but it's on the very, very thin edge of the wedge. I wouldn't want to venture a guess as to what might happen if this was discovered on take-off, but I bet it wouldn't be pretty. During training we were anticipating it and we still nearly rolled over on our backs.
[quote="CID"]On many advanced airplanes (yes even small ones) lack of trim indication is a serious issue. Its a no-go on pretty much any airplane. Any maintenance guy who signs off such an airplane is breaking the law. My guess that if such a defect was deferred it would be done with no paperwork trail so there is no way to nail the AME or to advise all the pilots of the problem/quote]
In the Kingair A100, it's actually on the MEL that we can operate without a trim indicator following certain things of course. Not really that big of a deal from what I've been told for our operation....when it comes to the MU2's I guess you'd have to go by their MEL if they have one.
In the Kingair A100, it's actually on the MEL that we can operate without a trim indicator following certain things of course. Not really that big of a deal from what I've been told for our operation....when it comes to the MU2's I guess you'd have to go by their MEL if they have one.
You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
Confuzed, thanks for the input. I feel I need to offer some clarification. I should have restricted that to the pitch trim. The pitch trim indicator is required by the aircraft certification basis so its not deferrable. Notice that the MEL doesn’t include the pitch trim indicator.In the Kingair A100, it's actually on the MEL that we can operate without a trim indicator following certain things of course.
Sorry for the confusion. Or is it "confuzion"?
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Cat Driver
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It would be interesting to know what exactly the problem is with Navair.
They have been in business for decades, why all of a sudden is there such concern on the part of TC about safety that they give a 48 hour time line?
Assuming of course that this 48 hour time limit is fact.
Cat
They have been in business for decades, why all of a sudden is there such concern on the part of TC about safety that they give a 48 hour time line?
Assuming of course that this 48 hour time limit is fact.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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" TC wouldn't give deadlines for compliance. If the aircraft have been put on the ground..what is the risk? "
What exactly are you trying to say?
Do you mean there is no risk as long as they are grounded?
Cat
What exactly are you trying to say?
Do you mean there is no risk as long as they are grounded?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Actually, that's what I was talking about, lol....I'll double check it again tomorrow when I'm at the office, but in training I was told we are MEL'd for the pitch trim indicator. On the King Air A100, there's a pointer on the leading edge of the horizontal stab and a green arc on the empennage. From what I was told in training you can operate without a pitch trim indicator as long as you can visually see that the stab is in the correct position. How do you know what the correct position is you ask? Well, again from my training (and visual inspection) there's a rivet that when the pointer is pointing to, coresponds with the take off positionCID wrote:Confuzed, thanks for the input. I feel I need to offer some clarification. I should have restricted that to the pitch trim. The pitch trim indicator is required by the aircraft certification basis so its not deferrable. Notice that the MEL doesn’t include the pitch trim indicator.In the Kingair A100, it's actually on the MEL that we can operate without a trim indicator following certain things of course.
Sorry for the confusion. Or is it "confuzion"?
Again, it's been a while since I've had to open up my MEL (thank god and I've never had the indicator go out on me ), but I'll make the trip up to the airport tomorrow. I have seen the pitch trim indicator in the table of contents though of my MEL, when looking up other things. I'd go up there now to take a look but the airplane's out flying 
You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
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wrenchturner
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In my recollection, the MEL for the King Air 100 states you can defer the pitch trim indicator, provided the trim setting is visually confirmed prior to takeoff (the green stripe on the empennage corresponds to the takeoff trim range, and the rivet is 0), and the trim in motion horn is working. Of course this post mainly involves the Navajo, which I haven't heard of any operator with an MEL for.confuzed wrote:Actually, that's what I was talking about, lol....I'll double check it again tomorrow when I'm at the office, but in training I was told we are MEL'd for the pitch trim indicator. On the King Air A100, there's a pointer on the leading edge of the horizontal stab and a green arc on the empennage. From what I was told in training you can operate without a pitch trim indicator as long as you can visually see that the stab is in the correct position. How do you know what the correct position is you ask? Well, again from my training (and visual inspection) there's a rivet that when the pointer is pointing to, coresponds with the take off positionCID wrote:Confuzed, thanks for the input. I feel I need to offer some clarification. I should have restricted that to the pitch trim. The pitch trim indicator is required by the aircraft certification basis so its not deferrable. Notice that the MEL doesn’t include the pitch trim indicator.In the Kingair A100, it's actually on the MEL that we can operate without a trim indicator following certain things of course.
Sorry for the confusion. Or is it "confuzion"?
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Cat Driver
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Unfortunately we seldon ever really get the truth about these things.
As an example Skyways were shut down and never recovered, so if they were that unsafe the day they were shut down how long had they been operating that way.
As to Navair I have no first hand knowlege of the inner workings of their maintenance nor their crew qualifications, but I have known the owners for decades and never really saw any reason to suspect that they would cut corners that would have a negative affect on flight safety.
So like I said, it would be nice to really know why they are grounded.
And before anyone jumps me as being anti TC, nothing could be further from the truth, if in fact TC is justified in doing what they seem to be doing then it may be a regional thing....??
Cat
As an example Skyways were shut down and never recovered, so if they were that unsafe the day they were shut down how long had they been operating that way.
As to Navair I have no first hand knowlege of the inner workings of their maintenance nor their crew qualifications, but I have known the owners for decades and never really saw any reason to suspect that they would cut corners that would have a negative affect on flight safety.
So like I said, it would be nice to really know why they are grounded.
And before anyone jumps me as being anti TC, nothing could be further from the truth, if in fact TC is justified in doing what they seem to be doing then it may be a regional thing....??
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I do believe that TC cannot enter an airplane without just cause. If they look in the window and see, is that just cause? I don't know. But if a disgruntled employee can quote chapter and verse, TC will come armed with a seach warrant. If nothing else, TC are politically correct and have access to legal advice.
A malfunctioning pitch trim indicator in a "Ho is a bit of a nuisance, unless some dark and stormy o"dark Hundred morning, with all the ducks in a row and everything that can go wrong has and it is Monday morning, well, an out of trim Navajo is a handfull. If it is a certification requirement, it may not be deferable. Remember the Navajo has a trim tab on the left elevator that is also a servo so when it is sitting on the ramp, the tab is almost full down so a visual check may be impossible. I know a King Air 100 has a trimmable stab, as does the Metro so a visual preflight inspection is both possible and accurate. I can imagine that the problem goes deeper that what everyone is guessing at and TC had a complaint that required action. I noticed, conspicious by it's absence, is an old beat up early serial Navajo 310 that a defunkt Calgary bag run operator peviously owned. That model Navajo was not and could not be certified for flight into known ice. Want more? look up TC's Advisory Circular. There is a list of Navajos that can be certified and those that cannot.
A malfunctioning pitch trim indicator in a "Ho is a bit of a nuisance, unless some dark and stormy o"dark Hundred morning, with all the ducks in a row and everything that can go wrong has and it is Monday morning, well, an out of trim Navajo is a handfull. If it is a certification requirement, it may not be deferable. Remember the Navajo has a trim tab on the left elevator that is also a servo so when it is sitting on the ramp, the tab is almost full down so a visual check may be impossible. I know a King Air 100 has a trimmable stab, as does the Metro so a visual preflight inspection is both possible and accurate. I can imagine that the problem goes deeper that what everyone is guessing at and TC had a complaint that required action. I noticed, conspicious by it's absence, is an old beat up early serial Navajo 310 that a defunkt Calgary bag run operator peviously owned. That model Navajo was not and could not be certified for flight into known ice. Want more? look up TC's Advisory Circular. There is a list of Navajos that can be certified and those that cannot.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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Mitch Cronin
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Just a guess Cat, but I'll bet it would be something like, ever since someone decided "common sense" was a better guage of airworthiness than the existing standards.Cat Driver wrote:so if they were that unsafe the day they were shut down how long had they been operating that way.
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Cat Driver
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Mitch, I never insinuated that "common sense" replaces or over rides existing standards.
What I was wondering was how can a ramp check on one or maybe two airplanes result in the shut down of a whole fleet? Especially in that that fleet have dozens of flights every day..then all of a sudden ...bam..a ramp check and ground the whole fleet...if in fact that is what is going on?
Cat
What I was wondering was how can a ramp check on one or maybe two airplanes result in the shut down of a whole fleet? Especially in that that fleet have dozens of flights every day..then all of a sudden ...bam..a ramp check and ground the whole fleet...if in fact that is what is going on?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Mitch Cronin
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- Location: Right beside my dog again...
No ., I didn't mean you'd said so... But it's an attitude Haligoner did a good job of demonstrating, that's in far too many places in this industry. It's been responsible for a lot of wrecks and a lot of grief... and when TC folks find an outfit that's riddled with it, I'm only gonna cheer if they shut them down.
As you know, when it comes to the airworthiness of a craft, upon which people's lives are depending on the accuracy of that claim, you don't @#$! around. The only standards that apply are written in the books, not invented as required.
As you know, when it comes to the airworthiness of a craft, upon which people's lives are depending on the accuracy of that claim, you don't @#$! around. The only standards that apply are written in the books, not invented as required.
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Cat Driver
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Yeh, Mitch I know what you mean.
I guess I just get discouraged with year after year seeing all the same problems in aviation.
Wouldn't it be great if the industry was run in a better manner than it is today and has been for as long as I can remember.
We are taught to obey the rules, and we know that most rules are there for good reason ( or at least were before they came out with CARS's that no one seems to understand
) yet within the industry the same old game of get away with whatever you can still rules.
I remember the dissipointment I felt many decades ago when I found a broken engine mount on a C180 float plane I was flying. When I called my employer he told me to go to the hardware store and get a piece of pipe and use it as a sleeve to repair the broken mount. So I called TC and an inspector came up to the base and in the end I found out that it was better not to say anything because the operator had to much pull in the DOT. (TC)
So that was my first insite into politics in the industry. I still remember the feeling of betrayal I felt when I found out that the system was rigged.
Over the years I can see no real improvement.
Cat
I guess I just get discouraged with year after year seeing all the same problems in aviation.
Wouldn't it be great if the industry was run in a better manner than it is today and has been for as long as I can remember.
We are taught to obey the rules, and we know that most rules are there for good reason ( or at least were before they came out with CARS's that no one seems to understand
) yet within the industry the same old game of get away with whatever you can still rules.I remember the dissipointment I felt many decades ago when I found a broken engine mount on a C180 float plane I was flying. When I called my employer he told me to go to the hardware store and get a piece of pipe and use it as a sleeve to repair the broken mount. So I called TC and an inspector came up to the base and in the end I found out that it was better not to say anything because the operator had to much pull in the DOT. (TC)
So that was my first insite into politics in the industry. I still remember the feeling of betrayal I felt when I found out that the system was rigged.
Over the years I can see no real improvement.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well...check for yourself:In my recollection, the MEL for the King Air 100 states you can defer the pitch trim indicator
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... h&x_lang=e
On the 'ho, pitch trim indication is deferrable, but with a category C repair interval which means a maximum of 10 days.
Come down off your cross Cat. It's time to get over it.Over the years I can see no real improvement.
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Cat Driver
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CID :
It seems that you are with TC by the dry quoting of rules and regs that you provide to us here in Avcanada, as well as your seeming blind adherence to same with no understanding of the working industry.
This last comment of yours supports my feelings on this.
" Come down off your cross Cat. It's time to get over it. "
Your remark is imature and adds nothing to this conversation, especially in that I do not fly in Canadian airspace anymore and if for some reason I did and was confronted by someone with your attitude, guess where I would shove a cross if I could find one?
Cat
It seems that you are with TC by the dry quoting of rules and regs that you provide to us here in Avcanada, as well as your seeming blind adherence to same with no understanding of the working industry.
This last comment of yours supports my feelings on this.
" Come down off your cross Cat. It's time to get over it. "
Your remark is imature and adds nothing to this conversation, especially in that I do not fly in Canadian airspace anymore and if for some reason I did and was confronted by someone with your attitude, guess where I would shove a cross if I could find one?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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golden hawk
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AOPA Says FAA Addressing Wrong MU-2 ’Problem’
“The MU-2B turboprop does not need yet another certification review,” according to AOPA. Reacting to congressional pressure, the FAA is “rushing to fix a problem that has not even been quantified.” The issue stems from two recent accidents involving MU-2Bs at Denver Centennial Airport. That led to a demand from Colorado lawmakers that the FAA investigate the safety of the twin turboprop. As previously reported, the agency said it plans to conduct a safety evaluation investigation. But in AOPA’s opinion, the FAA should instead review the possible causes of accidents that might be attributed to pilot error. “Operational safety and training initiatives should be conducted by the FAA,” said AOPA. The association pointed out, as did AINalerts, that in addition to the original certification process for the MU-2B, the FAA reevaluated the aircraft in at least two separate reviews. In all of these examinations the airplane was determined to be safe and airworthy.
“The MU-2B turboprop does not need yet another certification review,” according to AOPA. Reacting to congressional pressure, the FAA is “rushing to fix a problem that has not even been quantified.” The issue stems from two recent accidents involving MU-2Bs at Denver Centennial Airport. That led to a demand from Colorado lawmakers that the FAA investigate the safety of the twin turboprop. As previously reported, the agency said it plans to conduct a safety evaluation investigation. But in AOPA’s opinion, the FAA should instead review the possible causes of accidents that might be attributed to pilot error. “Operational safety and training initiatives should be conducted by the FAA,” said AOPA. The association pointed out, as did AINalerts, that in addition to the original certification process for the MU-2B, the FAA reevaluated the aircraft in at least two separate reviews. In all of these examinations the airplane was determined to be safe and airworthy.
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golden hawk
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gonefishin'
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Seems there is more to it than an inoperative trim indicator...
¦ MASTER MINIMUM EQUIPMENT LIST ¦
¦ FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION ¦
¦ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ¦
¦ AIRCRAFT: ¦ REVISION NO: 9 ¦ PAGE: ¦
¦ PIPER MODELS ¦ ¦ ¦
¦ PA-31, PA-31-300, 325, 350 ¦ DATE: 02/09/2005 ¦ 27-1 ¦
¦ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ¦
¦ 1. ¦ 2. NUMBER INSTALLED ¦
¦ SYSTEM & ¦ -------------------------------------------- ¦
¦ SEQUENCE ITEM ¦ ¦ 3. NUMBER REQUIRED FOR DISPATCH ¦
¦ NUMBERS ¦ ¦ --------------------------------------- ¦
¦ ------------------------- ¦ ¦ ¦ 4. REMARKS OR EXCEPTIONS ¦
¦ 27 FLIGHT CONTROLS ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦
¦ 1. Electric Elevator C ¦ 1 ¦ 0 ¦ (M) May be inoperative provided: ¦
¦ Trim System ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Manual trim is operative ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ and unaffected, and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Autopilot operation is ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ unaffected or autopilot is ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ not used. ¦
¦ 2. Trim Tab Position C ¦ 3 ¦ 0 ¦ May be inoperative provided: ¦
¦ Indicator (Aileron, ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Tab is checked for full ¦
¦ Elevator, Rudder) ¦ ¦ ¦ range of operation, ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Tab operation is not ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ affected, and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ c) Tab is positioned to neutral ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ prior to each departure and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ neutral position is verified ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ by visual inspection.
¦ MASTER MINIMUM EQUIPMENT LIST ¦
¦ FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION ¦
¦ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ¦
¦ AIRCRAFT: ¦ REVISION NO: 9 ¦ PAGE: ¦
¦ PIPER MODELS ¦ ¦ ¦
¦ PA-31, PA-31-300, 325, 350 ¦ DATE: 02/09/2005 ¦ 27-1 ¦
¦ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ¦
¦ 1. ¦ 2. NUMBER INSTALLED ¦
¦ SYSTEM & ¦ -------------------------------------------- ¦
¦ SEQUENCE ITEM ¦ ¦ 3. NUMBER REQUIRED FOR DISPATCH ¦
¦ NUMBERS ¦ ¦ --------------------------------------- ¦
¦ ------------------------- ¦ ¦ ¦ 4. REMARKS OR EXCEPTIONS ¦
¦ 27 FLIGHT CONTROLS ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦
¦ 1. Electric Elevator C ¦ 1 ¦ 0 ¦ (M) May be inoperative provided: ¦
¦ Trim System ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Manual trim is operative ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ and unaffected, and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Autopilot operation is ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ unaffected or autopilot is ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ not used. ¦
¦ 2. Trim Tab Position C ¦ 3 ¦ 0 ¦ May be inoperative provided: ¦
¦ Indicator (Aileron, ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Tab is checked for full ¦
¦ Elevator, Rudder) ¦ ¦ ¦ range of operation, ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Tab operation is not ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ affected, and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ c) Tab is positioned to neutral ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ prior to each departure and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ neutral position is verified ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ by visual inspection.
