Why is Flair so Hated?

[Longtimer]

the title of this thread is "
Why is Flair so Hatred?
I suspect it should instead be " Why is Flair So Hatred by those who were notgood enough to work for them?

[mbav8r]

the title of this thread is "
Why is Flair so Hatred?
I suspect it should instead be " Why is Flair So Hatred by those who were notgood enough to work for them?

Well, I've never applied there nor did I ever consider applying there, knowing they were started as a union busting company and continue to undercut other operators with their sub par wages is enough for me.
Holy crap, I didn't realize I had credibility with my anonymous ranting, it's a very sad day for me!

[Black_Tusk]

No, but not giving a shit about your terrible grammar and implying that while people were wasting their time getting an education and learning to write you were doing more sensible and less pretentious "real" stuff certainly isn't, either. Why else would he have mentioned art degrees and aviation colleges? Like there's some credit for not going to school and not being able to string a couple of words together meaningfully. Come on.

It's the internet, who gives a shit. You don't know me.

[Donald]

the title of this thread is "
Why is Flair so Hatred?
I suspect it should instead be " Why is Flair So Hatred by those who were notgood enough to work for them?

I guess that's possible.

I could always wait and see if I get laid off, after losing work to them, to apply there. If I'm lucky, I could get hired as a DEC, make 60% of my current salary and have 5 days off a month (+ 5 "grey" days) instead of 12. And some of my days off will be away from base if I'm really lucky.

I guess I can't have an opinion of Kasper air either, since I won't be applying there.....

[confusedalot]

the title of this thread is "
Why is Flair so Hatred?
I suspect it should instead be " Why is Flair So Hatred by those who were notgood enough to work for them?

I guess that's possible.

I could always wait and see if I get laid off, after losing work to them, to apply there. If I'm lucky, I could get hired as a DEC, make 60% of my current salary and have 5 days off a month (+ 5 "grey" days) instead of 12. And some of my days off will be away from base if I'm really lucky.

I guess I can't have an opinion of Kasper air either, since I won't be applying there.....

If yer making that kind of money, you have at least, minimum, 4 years at AC or WJ, or 6-8 years at jazz. So why even bother stating your good fortune on this thread? Good on you since you have made it. Many have not. People still need to work regardless.

I too would like to know why this operation is so hated, other than the fact they do not pay major canadian airline or top commuter airline salaries. I do not know flair.

[complexintentions]

I walked the walk and didn't whore myself out to anyone, so you can support it or partake in it and I'll keep telling you what a dirtbag you are for doing it.

I pity those like mbav8r who are unable to grasp economics, and choose instead to blame others for the level of wages at either their own company or others'. Exactly what walk are you talking about? Do you actually expect others to forsake earning a living and remain unemployed on principle, to help keep your wages higher? Be prepared to wait a long time, then. You are no better than anyone working at Flair or whomever, and no lesser than someone working at jobs that pay much better than yours. The folks working at other companies are not "whores", they simply took what was available to them at the time, just as you did.

Wages are offered at the lowest level a company believes it can offer and still attract applicants. The pressure on wages is downward when there are more people than jobs, upwards when it reverses. Duh. Be thankful your wages are what you feel they should be, but don't be a dick about it. You could very well be forced to eat some humble pie one day when you find yourself in need of one of those "dirtbag" jobs to feed your family. Of course, you'll no doubt just blame the rest of the world for your misfortune.

There is a thin, thin and rapidly thinning wet paper wall between the overpaid, under-worked, pampered, entitled, coddled, babied, western european and north american middle class, and the rest of this planet. They are knocking at the door. And why not.

writing skills are a sign of superiority?

Well, I don't know about superiority. But writing skills do convey level of ability to communicate, and rightly or wrongly, are often used as a proxy for intelligence. Accordingly I've always strived for the correct use of language, written or spoken, although I'm sure I often fall short. Personally I've never understood the pride some people take at being shitty and incorrect at something, but I'm kind of old-fashioned.

[confusedalot]

I have just learned that I am of low intelligence. Which means I am inferior. Which means that writing skills are the de facto measuring stick of superiority. And therefore ability.

Oh, the politically correct canadian way.

Better to know now than never.

[atphat]

Well said complex. As I said before. People who blame people for taking jobs are pathetic. I didn't come the regional route so I guess I could think that anyone who sits left seat 705 just like mbav8r for less than $150 grand a year is a dirty scab whoring themselves out, hurting the industry. People take jobs that are available to them in aviation from the docks to Mainline. It's none of anyone else's business but their own. The fact that some Jazz pilot thinks he is superior to a Flair pilot is laughable.

[Air.Field]

+1 Complex and atphat. Sometimes circumstances forces us to take the only road available to us to support ourselves and family. That happened to me few yrs ago. Took a 65% paycut after being laid off, due to another company willing to do work cheaper and paid less. Yes I was bitter at the time. Went to a regional that I thought was slightly better than the other comparables that would help me get to my career goal. Plenty of pilots in this industry with similar stories to put bread on the table. Everyone can point fingers at other companies for lowering the bar or stealing work, or point the finger at the pilots who take those jobs.

Fact is at some point all companies big and small from the ma and pa operations to AC and WS, have lowered the bar and took work from another company and will continue to do so in the future. That's how an airline business works. At some point all pilots will have worked at one of those companies because we want to fly and we want to put bread on the table and further our career. Should we point and laugh at ourselves?

Perhaps it makes us feel better pointing and shaming other pilots or companies, it's the self destructiveness that's within us and we have no one to blame for the race to the bottom and other conditions within aviation in Canada than ourselves and lack of unity. It would be easy to say more now than ever we must stick together, help each other out, to help further this profession, but this has been said and stressed so much in the past. Just like true brothers and sisters we forget we're family and in this together, but perhaps, just perhaps if we could take a moment to realize we're all in this together, and we all depend on each other, perhaps one day that unity and other industry improvements will happen.

Thanks for listening, you may go back to hating and flaming.

[mbav8r]

Complex,
I do in fact understand the effect of supply and demand, do you understand if pilots refused to accept those shitty wages, they create the demand. One of the defining principles of a union, withdraw your services creating a demand situation, no planes moving, no revenue, same thing applies to non union operations, no pilots no revenue.
I do not expect others to not earn a living to support my wages, there are other ways to earn a living. Some examples of me, "walking the walk", my first job I refused to go with less fuel than I needed to do a trip because "that's what your 45 minutes of reserve is for" was not an acceptable situation, laid off shortly after that. You know, that CEO actually told me that he could find 10 pilots tomorrow who would. My second job, the owner moved a trailer onto the property beside the hanger, when I asked him why, I was told it was so the FO could sit there for their whole shift and when a trip came in, get the aircraft out of the hanger and ready to go when the Captain arrived, this would save 10 minutes at best. My salary didn't cover sitting at the hanger, part of the attractiveness of the set up prior was I could be golfing or hanging with friends and go when a call came in, long story short my new hourly rate would've been around a dollar an hour, so he was informed I would be expecting minimum wage for my hours at the hanger in addition to my flying salary, the trailer was never occupied. I was out of work as a pilot for about 3 years and in that time I turned down several jobs that either had sub par conditions or pay or both, one in particular was a right seat Citation X FO/Bravo Capt job, when I asked the pay I was ready to turn it down but when I was told I was expected to be on call 24/7 for 27 days a month, I less than politely declined and by that I don't mean I was rude but I didn't hide the fact I felt that was unacceptable.
I understand, it's a losing battle and only a true supply glut will change things, doesn't change the fact if some pilots had more self respect they could create their own demand and I will continue to voice my opinion of those without any self respect.
Flair, in particular was created to bust the union at it's sister company KFC and to be honest other than the very likely effect of keeping those boys and girls at KFC in check, it has taken a long time to see growth at Flair.
I'm curious, would you come back and take a job at Flair or Sky Regional if you were out of work?

[mbav8r]

Well said complex. As I said before. People who blame people for taking jobs are pathetic. I didn't come the regional route so I guess I could think that anyone who sits left seat 705 just like mbav8r for less than $150 grand a year is a dirty scab whoring themselves out, hurting the industry. People take jobs that are available to them in aviation from the docks to Mainline. It's none of anyone else's business but their own. The fact that some Jazz pilot thinks he is superior to a Flair pilot is laughable.

First off, I don't think I'm superior to anyone but I feel perhaps I'm more principled than some. Secondly, I could argue when I joined Jazz, it was the highest paid, best working conditions of any regional airline in North America, perhaps anywhere and despite the new contract forced on us it's still a great place to be.
For what it's worth Atphat, I would not nor would I have in the past, vote for any contract that was created to take work from you

PS, this whole feed the family thing is a lame excuse, I made more money driving a truck than the jobs on offer, so I kept driving the truck until a better offer came, eventually it did.
Like I said in my previous post, it's a losing battle and I wish those companies a lack of pilots!

[Donald]

Why is Flair So Hatred by those who were notgood enough to work for them?

So does one have to work for Flair, in order to have a valid opinion of them?

[telex]

Watch The Mexico Game courtesy of CBC again. At least one employee who is good enough to work for them doesn't have too high an opinion of the operation.

the title of this thread is "
Why is Flair so Hatred?
I suspect it should instead be " Why is Flair So Hatred by those who were notgood enough to work for them?

[confusedalot]

Well said complex. As I said before. People who blame people for taking jobs are pathetic. I didn't come the regional route so I guess I could think that anyone who sits left seat 705 just like mbav8r for less than $150 grand a year is a dirty scab whoring themselves out, hurting the industry. People take jobs that are available to them in aviation from the docks to Mainline. It's none of anyone else's business but their own. The fact that some Jazz pilot thinks he is superior to a Flair pilot is laughable.

First off, I don't think I'm superior to anyone but I feel perhaps I'm more principled than some. Secondly, I could argue when I joined Jazz, it was the highest paid, best working conditions of any regional airline in North America, perhaps anywhere and despite the new contract forced on us it's still a great place to be.
For what it's worth Atphat, I would not nor would I have in the past, vote for any contract that was created to take work from you

PS, this whole feed the family thing is a lame excuse, I made more money driving a truck than the jobs on offer, so I kept driving the truck until a better offer came, eventually it did.
Like I said in my previous post, it's a losing battle and I wish those companies a lack of pilots!

So, the way to go is to pay for and get your A-Z license if you don't have one, and work in an industry known to have brutal working conditions and low salaries, to prove a point. And put your currency in jeopardy. Good luck with that concept catching on.

[mbav8r]

So, the way to go is to pay for and get your A-Z license if you don't have one, and work in an industry known to have brutal working conditions and low salaries, to prove a point. And put your currency in jeopardy. Good luck with that concept catching on.

Confusedalot,
You're ill informed about that industry, it's one where there are not enough drivers for the jobs so if you have a job with brutal working conditions, you go across the street to a different one. As for the low salaries, my last trucking job, I worked M-F typically home 3-4 nights a week for a little over 70g, they had a city driver who would load the trailers and tarp the load, I would hook on, check the load and go with great new equipment.
Also, it's one example of an alternative, there are other ways to earn a living, oil sands, construction, heck a city bus driver typically makes more than a lot of pilots, certainly the starting wage is higher.
Anyhow, I'm done with this as I've said already it's a losing battle, not only do we have pilots accepting less wages, we have some justifying it. The companies who've exploited pilots the worst will be the first ones to suffer the most and on some level that gives me some satisfaction.

[Alcoholism]

Anyhow, I'm done with this as I've said already it's a losing battle, not only do we have pilots accepting less wages, we have some justifying it. The companies who've exploited pilots the worst will be the first ones to suffer the most and on some level that gives me some satisfaction.

Isn't your company Jazz now one of the ones exploiting pilots for lower wages? And those who voted in that contract justifying it? Good to know you'll be happy when Jazz suffers more loss of flying lol

[bezerker]

When I look at the Flair posted pay and then the Jazz pay shown on one of the pilot salary websites, it seems that Flair is paying substantially more than Jazz.

It makes some of the arguments on this thread very confusing.

[mbav8r]

When I look at the Flair posted pay and then the Jazz pay shown on one of the pilot salary websites, it seems that Flair is paying substantially more than Jazz.

It makes some of the arguments on this thread very confusing.

Well, I thought I was done but I can't let these two post go unanswered.
Have you heard of status pay? If you strip out the 37 and 50 seat aircraft the Q and 900 would be significantly higher than the current top pay. What are they flying at Flair, 160 seat plus 737-400, the pay should be higher than Jazz. Now compare their pay to other 160 seat pilots, you'll find a significant discrepancy there for sure.

Isn't your company Jazz now one of the ones exploiting pilots for lower wages? And those who voted in that contract justifying it? Good to know you'll be happy when Jazz suffers more loss of flying lol

I've said this before, I specifically asked management if they were worried recruiting would be difficult with the new wages, their response was, "we'll know in 6 months if we went too far", well pilots were still applying and I've said on many occasions that if pilots stopped applying the pay would go up.
Jazz is not the worst offender, they matched the other companies undercutting us, we had no choice, it was literally a vote to save jobs, the pilots applying have a choice.
If Jazz suffers more loss of flying because we don't have pilots, my guess is they'll do something about it but no, I wouldn't be happy, I would be if the pay went up!

[bezerker]

None of Flair aircraft have 160 seats from what I know.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. Pay is not the determining factor in what defines scab workers.

It brings up a new confusing issue for me though. So if a 1900 pilot makes $70k for 19 seats...how much should a 37 seat pilot make before being considered a scab?

Also...it seems strange that a career at a company like Flair would net you much more lifetime income than a career at Jazz. It just seems odd that the higher paid guy is a scab.

Somehow there is a formula for pay per seat that I don't understand.

God forbid I take a job that pays more than other pilots with similar experience on a bigger plane than they are on. That sounds really awful.

I have lots to learn!

[Donald]

None of Flair aircraft have 160 seats from what I know.

Also...it seems strange that a career at a company like Flair would net you much more lifetime income than a career at Jazz.

Flair aircraft have 156 seats.

As far as pay compared to a company like a Jazz, are you only looking at it on an FO basis?

I'd be surprised if Flair captains were making more than Jazz captains.

There's also the consideration of quality of life, and longevity of the company.

Not to mention, Flair has instituted pay cuts with little notice before, who's to say that won't happen again?

[confusedalot]

Anyone out there care to provide actual numbers, that is salary, at flair? Hey, one guy is saying that you will make 70K as a trucker with no previous industry experience and getting oil sands jobs without any requisite skills is a piece of cake.

Curious to know how bad it really is a flair. Jazz rates are easy to find, so no need there.

[confusedalot]

Never mind, found it on another thread.

Pay is far better than alluded to by some. So the morale issue remains to be determined.

Quote below;

I interviewed a while back, and ended up not taking it. Spoke with a friend who is there and here are the highlights.

55k-83k FO across 10 years based on min credit 80
93k-150k CA across 10 years based on min credit 80
10% of annual salary top up for Training Captains
3/hr Per Diems
10 days off, 5 of which are changeable, but aimed to change with the union in place.
2 weeks Vacation plus Stat for year 1-3. Gets better afterwards. Which means you don't get paid for stat, but you get 11 extra days off in your holidays.
OT above 80 at 1.5 the rate
RRSP matching up to 5%
6 month probation
Bases are YEG, YYC, YHM, YXX, YLW
Air Transat Flying, New Leaf Flying, Oil Sands Flying, ADHOC Charter flying around the world.

Seems like moral is always on a teeter totter, sometimes high, some times low.

[complexintentions]

First off, I don't think I'm superior to anyone but I feel perhaps I'm more principled than some. Secondly, I could argue when I joined Jazz, it was the highest paid, best working conditions of any regional airline in North America, perhaps anywhere and despite the new contract forced on us it's still a great place to be.
For what it's worth Atphat, I would not nor would I have in the past, vote for any contract that was created to take work from you

PS, this whole feed the family thing is a lame excuse, I made more money driving a truck than the jobs on offer, so I kept driving the truck until a better offer came, eventually it did.
Like I said in my previous post, it's a losing battle and I wish those companies a lack of pilots!

So you have more principles....but only to a point. Like as long as you have the luxury of making more doing something else, or as long as you can rationalize staying at Jazz because it had the "highest paid, best working conditions" when you you started, it's still a "great place to be", and the new contract was "forced on us". Then it's ok to keep the job. Got it.

Pretty selective - sounds more like self-righteous then principled. Keeping a non-aviation job when it pays better than the flying jobs "beneath you" isn't exactly an example of sacrifice, is it? And does NOT reflect the circumstances of everyone out there looking for work. Incidentally I drove truck to pay for my own flying career, so I'm not unfamiliar with that path either - just like aviation, it isn't all easy money as you try and imply it is.

The thing is, blaming individuals only makes one bitter. You can't take economics personally, it's like arguing with the wind. You say you understand only a true supply glut will change things, yet you also blame pilots for not creating their own demand. How do industries with artificially-created demand usually turn out? That's assuming your premise that pilots can materially influence (i.e. distort) the wage market is correct, which I doubt. Certainly not as individuals. Perhaps in the short term, unions can demand more than market. But in the end economics determines sustainability. And thus contracts get "forced" on you.

I'm curious, would you come back and take a job at Flair or Sky Regional if you were out of work?

Of course. In a heartbeat. And be thankful for the opportunity. As it happens at present I have a job and career possibilities that offer a great deal better, but if that were to change I would adapt along with it, do the best I could, and not blame anyone else. I'm not foolish enough to sit there believing that my refusing a job is going to help raise wages.

I have just learned that I am of low intelligence. Which means I am inferior. Which means that writing skills are the de facto measuring stick of superiority. And therefore ability.

Oh, the politically correct canadian way.

Better to know now than never.

Oh don't be such a drama queen. I never said being poor at communication means someone is stupid. But it can make them sound like they are. Which seems a shame if they are in fact quite intelligent. How many resumes get tossed because a perfectly capable pilot comes across as an illiterate 12 year old? How many valid opinions are rejected because the person holding them lacks the ability to express them?

My only point was that it surprises me that in an increasingly competitive world many seem to be actually celebrating textspeak and poor grammar and spelling and so on as their preferred method of communicating, even in professional settings.

whatevs lolz

[Cat Driver]

Not taking the time to write what you are attempting to describe in the best grammar you are capable of shows intellectual laziness and thus a possible propensity to be lazy in other fields.

A pilot should do their best to not be seen as intellectually lazy when flying if for no other reason self survival.

[flyinhigh]

All this, and yet you still accepted a position at Jazz for 36k when you started. Interesting, do we get to call you a scab for bringing down the industry?

Complex,
I do in fact understand the effect of supply and demand, do you understand if pilots refused to accept those shitty wages, they create the demand. One of the defining principles of a union, withdraw your services creating a demand situation, no planes moving, no revenue, same thing applies to non union operations, no pilots no revenue.
I do not expect others to not earn a living to support my wages, there are other ways to earn a living. Some examples of me, "walking the walk", my first job I refused to go with less fuel than I needed to do a trip because "that's what your 45 minutes of reserve is for" was not an acceptable situation, laid off shortly after that. You know, that CEO actually told me that he could find 10 pilots tomorrow who would. My second job, the owner moved a trailer onto the property beside the hanger, when I asked him why, I was told it was so the FO could sit there for their whole shift and when a trip came in, get the aircraft out of the hanger and ready to go when the Captain arrived, this would save 10 minutes at best. My salary didn't cover sitting at the hanger, part of the attractiveness of the set up prior was I could be golfing or hanging with friends and go when a call came in, long story short my new hourly rate would've been around a dollar an hour, so he was informed I would be expecting minimum wage for my hours at the hanger in addition to my flying salary, the trailer was never occupied. I was out of work as a pilot for about 3 years and in that time I turned down several jobs that either had sub par conditions or pay or both, one in particular was a right seat Citation X FO/Bravo Capt job, when I asked the pay I was ready to turn it down but when I was told I was expected to be on call 24/7 for 27 days a month, I less than politely declined and by that I don't mean I was rude but I didn't hide the fact I felt that was unacceptable.
I understand, it's a losing battle and only a true supply glut will change things, doesn't change the fact if some pilots had more self respect they could create their own demand and I will continue to voice my opinion of those without any self respect.
Flair, in particular was created to bust the union at it's sister company KFC and to be honest other than the very likely effect of keeping those boys and girls at KFC in check, it has taken a long time to see growth at Flair.
I'm curious, would you come back and take a job at Flair or Sky Regional if you were out of work?