I don't know anything about what happens to a helo at the edge or past it's envelope, but given the reports of a sudden rapid climb followed by a sudden rapid descent, I'm wondering if it was a result of a GPWS reaction gone too far? Or, mechanically something even could have popped on it from being overstressed?
The armchair quarterback in me thinks this is exactly what happened.
A previous pilot of that very machine said it was equipped with EGPWS. And from witness statements on the ground about a helicopter flying around but not seeing it and others saying it was out of control when it broke out and crashed....leads me to think the pilot was lost when his EGPWS went off and he executed an evasive maneuver - only to get disoriented from the rapid pull up and G's and lost control - maybe it rolled on its side or something and he had no altitude to recover.
The S-76 was based on the Blackhawk design and seems to be a very robust machine....I don't know squat about flying it or anything but it seems to me that a sudden pitch up to 1400 ft/min would probably not be enough to break it. Anyone here fly them that could shed some light?
The egpws was most likely not on if he was scudrunning it, it is also not hard to overcome, the aircraft wasn't slowed at all during the flight either.
I also don't hold too much faith in the accuracy of those publicly sourced barometric readings. The calibration is never perfect either.
Unless there were multiple instrument failures, I don't see why they wouldn't have gone ifr at that point.
Unless there were multiple instrument failures, I don't see why they wouldn't have gone ifr at that point.
Mmmmmm, interesting. Which makes me think when the pilot was denied initial clearance through the class c control zone when he requested a special vfr transition and then was put in a hold for 15 minutes, you would think that's when they would get the pop-up IFR clearance.
The egpws was most likely not on if he was scudrunning it
Huh....being a fixed wing guy - I never thought of that, but that actually makes sense.
I also don't hold too much faith in the accuracy of those publicly sourced barometric readings. The calibration is never perfect either.
No - That's true - but they are not completely inaccurate either. Point is - there was suddenly a dramatic increase in his rate of climb, followed by an even more dramatic decrease in rate of climb. A sudden 1000, 15000, 2000 ft per min climb is not a normal situation from relatively level flight unless your suddenly trying to avoid something - or maybe your flying some high performance military machine.
Unless there were multiple instrument failures, I don't see why they wouldn't have gone ifr at that point.
Mmmmmm, interesting. Which makes me think when the pilot was denied initial clearance through the class c control zone when he requested a special vfr transition and then was put in a hold for 15 minutes, you would think that's when they would get the pop-up IFR clearance.
K
He didn't want IFR because he wouldn't have been able to land at the sports facility.
They were holding outside of the zone for other traffic, including a missed approach and transitioned just fine.
He cut across van nuys to pick up the highway, this was straight up scudrunning and the pilot made a terrible choice to continue.
I'd like to see the pilot record, that may shed some more light on the pilots ifr experience.
Unless there were multiple instrument failures, I don't see why they wouldn't have gone ifr at that point.
Mmmmmm, interesting. Which makes me think when the pilot was denied initial clearance through the class c control zone when he requested a special vfr transition and then was put in a hold for 15 minutes, you would think that's when they would get the pop-up IFR clearance.
K
He didn't want IFR because he wouldn't have been able to land at the sports facility.
They were holding outside of the zone for other traffic, including a missed approach and transitioned just fine.
He cut across van nuys to pick up the highway, this was straight up scudrunning and the pilot made a terrible choice to continue.
I'd like to see the pilot record, that may shed some more light on the pilots ifr experience.
There must have been alot of pressure to get to the sports facility instead of getting a clearance and climbing, doing an approach to Van Nuys and calling a limo...
As we all know , or most do . flying marginal vfr is very hard .
looking at very localized weather 2 1/2 mile and 1400 isnt terrible by any stretch in a helicopter.
But in a S76 which is actually a IFR platform with limited visibility for pilot outside reference marginal VFR would be very challenging .
From reports and local weather , my guess is he entered cloud /fog to possibly climb above it and lost it .... but really what do i Know .
Very sad for all effected , the flight should never taken place - rip
Could a 4000'/min descent be the result of an abrupt 1400'/min pull up from loss of orientation causing the main rotor to contact the tail mast? Is that a thing in the S76?
altiplano wrote: ↑Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:52 pmI feel for the Pilots and their families... I hope the Bryant estate looks after their future too.
I would suggest you have that backwards. The Bryant family put their lives in the hands of a professional pilot. Now they're dead.
Let's give the man that killed daddy a Christmas bonus?
You need to visit the book off after a crisis thread as this accident has hit your thinking rather hard.
We don't know what caused this accident, and when I made that post the media was in a frenzy and wasn't even acknowledging that other people had lost their lives, that other families were affected.
It was all "Our thoughts and prayers are with Kobe's family and friends"...
What about everyone else?
What if it was an airliner with 200 on board that killed Kobe? @#$! acknowledging the other 199 regular people who's families are affected? Kobe is the only story that needs your thoughts and prayers?
9 people dead but reading most of the press stories at the time you'd think Kobe was flying the machine by himself...
albertdesalvo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:50 am
I would suggest you have that backwards. The Bryant family put their lives in the hands of a professional pilot. Now they're dead.
Let's give the man that killed daddy a Christmas bonus?
You need to visit the book off after a crisis thread as this accident has hit your thinking rather hard.
We don't know what caused this accident, and when I made that post the media was in a frenzy and wasn't even acknowledging that other people had lost their lives, that other families were affected.
It was all "Our thoughts and prayers are with Kobe's family and friends"...
What about everyone else?
What if it was an airliner with 200 on board that killed Kobe? @#$! acknowledging the other 199 regular people who's families are affected? Kobe is the only story that needs your thoughts and prayers?
9 people dead but reading most of the press stories at the time you'd think Kobe was flying the machine by himself...
I hope your estate has provisions for passengers that might lose their lives while you are at the controls of an ill fated flight.
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Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
Let's give the man that killed daddy a Christmas bonus?
You need to visit the book off after a crisis thread as this accident has hit your thinking rather hard.
We don't know what caused this accident, and when I made that post the media was in a frenzy and wasn't even acknowledging that other people had lost their lives, that other families were affected.
It was all "Our thoughts and prayers are with Kobe's family and friends"...
What about everyone else?
What if it was an airliner with 200 on board that killed Kobe? @#$! acknowledging the other 199 regular people who's families are affected? Kobe is the only story that needs your thoughts and prayers?
9 people dead but reading most of the press stories at the time you'd think Kobe was flying the machine by himself...
I hope your estate has provisions for passengers that might lose their lives while you are at the controls of an ill fated flight.
co-joe wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:27 pm
Could a 4000'/min descent be the result of an abrupt 1400'/min pull up from loss of orientation causing the main rotor to contact the tail mast? Is that a thing in the S76?
I haven't seen the airspeed indicated when it did the 1400'/min climb, but a 76 could do that climb easily without much more than aft cyclic input at normal cruise speed.
I don't know how fast you would have to pull or if it's even possible to make the rotor contact anywhere aft of the hub in a 76, but my guess is you'd be upside down or make it loop if you tried.
More than likely it's a IIMC and disorientation, but whatever the cause is its sad that it couldn't have been avoided.
We don't know what caused this accident, and when I made that post the media was in a frenzy and wasn't even acknowledging that other people had lost their lives, that other families were affected.
It was all "Our thoughts and prayers are with Kobe's family and friends"...
What about everyone else?
What if it was an airliner with 200 on board that killed Kobe? @#$! acknowledging the other 199 regular people who's families are affected? Kobe is the only story that needs your thoughts and prayers?
9 people dead but reading most of the press stories at the time you'd think Kobe was flying the machine by himself...
I hope your estate has provisions for passengers that might lose their lives while you are at the controls of an ill fated flight.
You're out of line. Have a good one.
I will have a good one. Congratulations on your status as a self appointed moderator now.
I'll take comfort in the fact that you find value in Kobe's estate if not the man.
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Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
I haven't seen the airspeed indicated when it did the 1400'/min climb, but a 76 could do that climb easily without much more than aft cyclic input at normal cruise speed.
Looking at what ADSB info is available at this time - it appears to be in the 140kt area
MOAB wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:19 am
There must have been alot of pressure to get to the sports facility instead of getting a clearance and climbing, doing an approach to Van Nuys and calling a limo...
Or Camarillo. There was some reason he couldn't go IFR. No idea what it was.
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Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
PilotDAR wrote: ↑Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:53 am
While we're holding empathetic thoughts for Mr Bryant and his daughter and their family, I'm sure we are also thinking of the families of the other seven victims, and, all of the emergency services personnel who arrived to find the sad scene, and, the ATC people who realized that a pilot they had just been talking to has now died, and, the people who took pride in the maintenance of the helicopter, which is now a debris trail, and, the staff of the helicopter operator company. And... the reality, that many of these people now have to relive this sad event, in being interviewed, having to write reports, and produce documentation for examination.
The sadness extends, to varying degrees, far beyond the people who were aboard the helicopter...
Having worked on an aircraft that crashed a few weeks later killing both on board, I must thank you for pointing out the true extent of a tragedy of this nature. My thoughts are with those left behind!
NTSB confirmed today that the chopper actually did not have TAWS.
My earlier reading led me to beleive almost all the 76's had it, and given this was supposed to be a top trim model I assumed it did. Maybe inop.
Correct, operator was 135 VFR only. Pilot had 1200 on that aircraft and over 8000 total. You can hear him on ATC as pretty smooth and experienced. We don’t have flight-following here in Canada but it is a big deal in the US to help with traffic avoidance, especially in the LA Basin.
The speed is puzzling, you’d think low and slow, with the gear down so the airspeed switch isn’t blaring. I wonder if his plan all along was to pop up if things got ugly. Don’t think he had EGPWS but he had an iPad with Foreflight. He got up as high as 2300’ and turn south down valley towards Malibu. Called ATC that he was popping up. Then lost it and dove in a left turn ‘way beyond Vne and impacted the ground at 1080’. Not CFIT. EGPWS would have made no difference. Pop up, file a NASA report, approach and VFR transition at Camarillo.
So what happened after the turn south and climb to 2300’? He was an instructor and IFR instructor. Lots of time on aircraft but did he use the automation correctly? Did he couple 2 cue or 3? Was he holding airspeed or was it bleeding off until the APs kicked off?
Sure - he was an instructor and an experienced pilot - but, when did he last fly actual IFR? I'll bet it was a while ago, also - If the company is VFR only....chances are he had zero IFR time in the 76. At least recently.
Doing IFR at 90kts in an R22 is a lot different than suddenly ending up in the soup, low level, at 160kts in an S-76. Maybe he just got behind the machine. Too many unknowns and not enough facts right now...but it certainly seems like the weather is an increasingly large factor.
I get the reasoning mentioned in the article about being VFR only company - but if that's the case then they should have better standards than allowing SVFR scudrunning.
SVFR may have it's place, but you need to be prepared to call it off and not push it. Droning around trying to stay VFR in mountainous terrain with crap weather is just an accident looking for a place to happen.
