Westjet mask policy

[Gear Jerker]

Sigh. Ok, here I go...

For the posters who correctly point out that not everyone is wearing a mask that perfectly fits their face and whose filtration levels are consistent with those required to actually stop 100% of human droplet sized particles 100% of the time; you're right - and that's ok. It's not about 100% of people being 100% compliant with 100% perfect masks all the time. It's about enough people following the public health guidance (masks, social distancing, hand washing etc.) to overall keep the basic reproduction number - aka the "r nought" value - low enough that overall we keep the caseload at a manageable level.

And, it's been proven to work - and that's a good thing!

When it rains, and you're warm and dry inside your home, you don't think "why did I waste money on a roof, I'm not even wet!" You think, "I'm glad I have this roof to keep me dry." This is evidence of efficacy; not that there isn't a threat that needs to be mitigated.

It's a bridge to a time when a vaccine is widely distributed, and life can resume.

From the aviation/airline perspective, it's quite simple, and I'm amazed that some posters here don't understand:

You all know very well how devastating the pandemic has been on our industry. You also know that the general public knows nothing about aviation. The general public reads the daily sensational stories reporting that a passenger on ABC airline flight 123 tested positive for COVID-19, and not realizing that is simply the contact tracing program doing it's work, they think that flying on an airliner these days means breathing stale recirculated covid filled air for 4 hours and that they'll definitely catch the 'Rona and pass it along to grandma who they're going to visit.

The general public doesn't know that airline cabins are electrostatically fogged before each flight; that they have HEPA filters installed; that all persons on the secure side of an aerodrome in Canada now have to wear masks at all times; that they have to pass a temperature check and answer health screening questions to be allowed to check in/board; that they have an abundance of wipes/hand sanitizer available to them, or that there are no food/drinks served in flight.

As we all know as professional pilots, in fact, all of the above is in place, and has been deemed by IATA to be safe, and there have been zero cases of COVID transmitted on an airliner in Canada.

Bottom line: We're living through a time with 80-90% lower revenue than pre pandemic levels. If airlines had a laissez-faire, - wear a mask if you want but you don't have to - policy, the public would not feel as safe to fly, and would not book as many tickets, and airlines would struggle even more, and even less of us would have jobs.

Just wear a mask for the couple hours at a time a few times a month that you have to, for like 6 more months or a year or whatever, so that we can just get past this time as soon as possible. Nobody likes wearing them, but in a round about way it actually correlates with more revenue and more pilot jobs.

Your attempts at "waking up" and "not being a sheep" or whatever are hurting your cause, not helping.

Failing all of the above, feel free to just move to Florida.

[montado]

For everyone who believes in mandatory masks for everyone, do you also think when a vaccine is available this should be mandatory? Should regulations make it mandatory or you get kicked out of school or work? Make restrictions like you can't enter the country without the vaccine?

And as to gear jerkers points. The airlines have not lost their revenues because of the virus. They have lost the revenues because of the fear. To get buy in on the public policies they had to scare the crap out of everyone. Masks won't save the airlines. I really feel no safer on an airplane with everyone wearing a mask vs no one wearing a mask.

[Gear Jerker]

For everyone who believes in mandatory masks for everyone, do you also think when a vaccine is available this should be mandatory? Should regulations make it mandatory or you get kicked out of school or work? Make restrictions like you can't enter the country without the vaccine?

And as to gear jerkers points. The airlines have not lost their revenues because of the virus. They have lost the revenues because of the fear. To get buy in on the public policies they had to scare the crap out of everyone. Masks won't save the airlines. I really feel no safer on an airplane with everyone wearing a mask vs no one wearing a mask.

Ok, let's step back a little bit. What do YOU think would happen if nobody ever did any mitigation for COVID-19 and we carried on with crowded bars and packed sports events and concerts and a booming aviation/tourism industry and just normal life this entire time, with no special measures?

- No, I don't think vaccines should be mandatory, and I recognize that not everyone will choose to become vaccinated. However; Virology 101. Almost all of us get exposed to the virus at some point. You either get it and fight it off, or hopefully get a vaccine. In either case - in theory, you are now personally safe to carry on with normal life. Once enough people have either contracted the virus and recovered, or been vaccinated, (and the number is not known but let's say it's somewhere between 60-90%), then statistically the basic reproduction number cannot rise above 1 and the pandemic is over.

- I think each individual school or workplace should use public health guidance and resources and determine how they can best strike the balance of safety and functionality. In some cases, sure, this means mandatory mask wearing or you're kicked out.

- Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. Fortunately, the public health measures in place for aviation seem to solve both problems - the actual threat, and the perceived threat. Frankly, I don't give a sh** if you personally feel safer with or without a mask on. IATA has given airlines guidance, airlines follow the guidance, more and more members of the public feel safer to book tickets and more and more of our colleagues have jobs.

[montado]

I think the virus would look much like how things have gone in the states. I would guess right now 25 percent of Americans have been exposed to the virus. Without a vaccine if Americans stay on track maybe within a year nearly all Americans would have had the virus. 1 million Wil die due to complications from it. Most of these people were elderly and half way to heaven anyways. Some rare cases will kill younger and healthier individuals. 1 million Americans die, death rate is about 0.3 percent on track to be twice as bad as the flu.

The worst part is we will suffer the consequences of shutdown and economic impact as well as the actual effects of the virus itself. We get a double wammy because everyone had a different plan. It won't matter if we eradicate the virus in Canada, economically we are doomed on the global stage.

So I think if we did nothing 110k Canadians would have died from covid. by 2022. Cancer kills 80k a year in Canada. Heart disease kills 50k.

[digits_]

You know what sticks in my craw? Seatbelts. If I ever get into an accident, I want to be thrown clear of my vehicle. If it happens to be straight through the windshield, then oh well.

It's a respiratory virus. It's not going to kill you to wear a F***king mask.

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

When seatbelts became mandatory, there was a significant group of people who found the comfort of not wearing a seatbelt more important than increasing their chances of survival in an unlikely crash. It's only after the government made it mandatory, and one generation died off, that it became somewhat widely accepted that you should wear it.

If covid was as deadly as ebola, pretty sure everyone would be wearing their masks all the time. Me included. But it's not. So I'd rather go shopping without a mask while keeping my distance from other people. In an area 200 miles away from the nearest covid case. Yet the big brand stores are making masks mandatory. Right.

[Rockie]

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

It isn't about you, that's the whole point. It's the people around you. Why does that brutally simple fact not penetrate the cement in your heads?

Let me know how long you live driving 100 on the 401. Trucks will make you paint on the road....................

30 years and counting. All you have to do is drive in the right lane and leave the high speed stuff to the lunatics in the left. BTW, you can drive 100 on the autobahns as well, just stay to the right.

[digits_]

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

It isn't about you, that's the whole point. It's the people around you. Why does that brutally simple fact not penetrate the cement in your heads?

If it weren't mandatory, then It's not a courtesy I expect from other people, because it's something I prefer not to do myself given the relatively low risk. I also wonder about the effectiveness of masks in an airplane situation.'

You can disagree with that, but you can't deny that such a group of people exist. If you want airline travel to go back to normal levels, then you have to take that into account.

[Gear Jerker]

You know what sticks in my craw? Seatbelts. If I ever get into an accident, I want to be thrown clear of my vehicle. If it happens to be straight through the windshield, then oh well.

It's a respiratory virus. It's not going to kill you to wear a F***king mask.

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

When seatbelts became mandatory, there was a significant group of people who found the comfort of not wearing a seatbelt more important than increasing their chances of survival in an unlikely crash. It's only after the government made it mandatory, and one generation died off, that it became somewhat widely accepted that you should wear it.

If covid was as deadly as ebola, pretty sure everyone would be wearing their masks all the time. Me included. But it's not. So I'd rather go shopping without a mask while keeping my distance from other people. In an area 200 miles away from the nearest covid case. Yet the big brand stores are making masks mandatory. Right.

Do you understand what all the talk of early on in the pandemic about "flattening the curve" was about, how it relates to medical resources, and how that in turn effects fatality rate of the virus?

Also, do you really think that governments around the world would take such unprecedented, economically devastating actions if the whole thing was no big deal and we're a bunch of snowflakes and its just the flu, etc.? That multiple governments around the world would impose a lockdown of their citizens?

PS: Ebola has a fatality rate well over 50%, an R nought of less than 2, and is transmitted by bodily fluids. There's a reason why significantly more people have died of COVID-19 in the United States alone in less than a year even with all the containment measures, than have ever died of Ebola. If you don't understand the flawed logic in your apples to oranges example, then we're not on a level where we can rationally discuss this.

- Edited to take about 25% off the tone lol. And to clarify this isn't entirely directed at you.

[digits_]

Do you understand what all the talk of early on in the pandemic about "flattening the curve" was about, how it relates to medical resources, and how that in turn effects fatality rate of the virus?

Yes, but it doesn't affect your chances of dying once you get it. If that were higher, people would be more concerned.
I can understand wearing a mask when a lot of people have brief contacts, such as in a grocery store with a significant covid presence, but in an airplane where you spend 4 hours sitting next to the same person? I doubt a mask would save you there.

Also, do you really think that governments around the world would take such unprecedented, economically devastating actions if the whole thing was no big deal and we're a bunch of snowflakes and its just the flu, etc.? That multiple governments around the world would impose a lockdown of their citizens?

Yes. If 10 other countries take measures, and you don't, it's hard to cover your behind if something goes wrong. Not saying that this is what happened here, but I could definitely see it happen.

I'm also not saying all actions taken by the government are ridiculous or unnecessary. I find wearing a mask in an airplane ineffective, and wearing a mask in GroceryMegaChain in McLakeNowhere because the headquarters in Toronto are getting panicky, silly.

That's also part of the problem with the whole covid thing: if you object to one thing, all of a sudden people think you don't want to do anything and you are irresponsible etc. It's achieving cult like status with believers and non-believers.

PS: Ebola has a fatality rate well over 50%, an R nought of less than 2, and is transmitted by bodily fluids. There's a reason why significantly more people have died of COVID-19 in the United States alone in less than a year even with all the containment measures, than have ever died of Ebola. If you don't understand the flawed logic in your apples to oranges example, then we're not on a level where we can rationally discuss this.

The risk is that you enter the plane and that you are sitting next to an infected person, right?
A thought experiment. You have 2 people, one may or may not have covid, the other may or may not have ebola. Which one would you prefer to sit next to? I'll let you wear a mask.

I would be worried about contracting ebola, because I would be afraid of dying.
I'm not that worried about contracting covid, because even if I get it, there is only a 1% chance of me dying.

- Edited to take about 25% off the tone lol. And to clarify this isn't entirely directed at you.

Thank you

[northernpilot2]

Thread drift, but my highest speed -- in Germany -- was approximately the rotation speed of a wide-body. I was not the fastest car on the road, either.

I still need to go there and drive one day, I'm sure it would be fun.

[ayseven]

You would think so, but the 200 + km/hr Porsches, slowing and going literally 6 inches off your rear bumper, and right lane clogged with trucks kind of kills the fun of it for me.

[Heliian]

The debate over masks is hilarious. My favorite part is everyone picks and chooses when to follow the rules. Many people drive well over the speed limit doing 20 plus over the speed limit. Speeding kills, and puts the driver and others at risk. I know people who are supposed to have a social circle of 10 by the rules in phase 3 in Ontario, yet they congregate with many in plain sight with 20 plus individuals without distance and without masks. Then you ask these same people about back to school and they are in complete fear of it and say it's not safe... You ask them why they wear a mask when they go to the store and they say "it's the law and I follow the law"... Yeah ummm ok I have seen you social circle of over 20 close contacts, and I have seen you rip it into your driveway like a soccer mom with no regards for your vans suspension slamming the curb, I can just about guarantee you drive 20 over the limit everywhere because speed limit to you means follow the person in front of you bumper to bumper. How on earth would you know how fast to drive without vehicles to follow. I could go on all day about mask policy and how stupid some of it is.

The best defence for it is that it limits risk, so even when the policy obviously has flaws like you can take it off to eat, well the idea is we limit risk not eliminate it. But this is why it's all shades of grey. If I eat a sloth speed can I leave my mask off for a whole flight while I chew my carrots like a rabbit for 3 hours?

So I'm against enforcement of masks, I'm against it being the law. Mostly because people are so completely stupid and pick and choose what laws to follow. I think recommending a mask is great. Even offering free masks to everyone as its kind of hard to say no to a mask when it's right there with a little encouragement. Of course 5 percent will still defer, and that's fine. I honestly think things would be better off making it optional. You might even get more compliance that way.

It sounds like your neighbour is an asshole. We are all doing our part and doing very well at it. Wear a mask and wash your damn hands.

[northernpilot2]

You would think so, but the 200 + km/hr Porsches, slowing and going literally 6 inches off your rear bumper, and right lane clogged with trucks kind of kills the fun of it for me.

Doing my best here not to drift the thread.

As long as the light ahead is not red, and the road is clear, just floor it. Otherwise its pointless, unless your planning to run the red light or crash head on with the vehicle ahead of you.

[AirFrame]

You cant tell anyone what they should do in their own space.

This is true.

But a Westjet flight isn't "your own space". Nor is the supermarket. Nor public transit. They are private spaces owned by the companies that run them. They *do* have the right to set rules for the usage of their space. And you have the right to not use their space if you don't wish to follow those rules.

[digits_]

You cant tell anyone what they should do in their own space.

This is true.

But a Westjet flight isn't "your own space". Nor is the supermarket. Nor public transit. They are private spaces owned by the companies that run them. They *do* have the right to set rules for the usage of their space. And you have the right to not use their space if you don't wish to follow those rules.

Up to a point. Healthcare policies and especially pandemic responses should be addressed by the government based on the location of the business, not by individual companies. That way you avoid situations where grocery store A requires a mask and grocery store B does not. Same with hotels. I'm sure it would take away quite a bit of frustration from the people that don't like to wear masks. If it's the law, it's the law. But if a company dumps it on you as a company policy without prior notice, then that would piss me off too.

[mbav8r]

You cant tell anyone what they should do in their own space.

This is true.

But a Westjet flight isn't "your own space". Nor is the supermarket. Nor public transit. They are private spaces owned by the companies that run them. They *do* have the right to set rules for the usage of their space. And you have the right to not use their space if you don't wish to follow those rules.

Up to a point. Healthcare policies and especially pandemic responses should be addressed by the government based on the location of the business, not by individual companies. That way you avoid situations where grocery store A requires a mask and grocery store B does not. Same with hotels. I'm sure it would take away quite a bit of frustration from the people that don't like to wear masks. If it's the law, it's the law. But if a company dumps it on you as a company policy without prior notice, then that would piss me off too.

Every company that I’ve seen or heard make the mask policy, has done so with notice to the public. It’s usually announced on Thursday or Friday that it will be in effect on Monday, which bugs me in general, if they are needed why delay the mandate, just implement it now with a grace period where you won’t be denied access until that time.
Anyhow 8 out of 10 Manitobans support a public place masks mandate with 6 strongly in favour, so it sounds like the idiots who don’t get the science are the minority.

[digits_]

Anyhow 8 out of 10 Manitobans support a public place masks mandate with 6 strongly in favour, so it sounds like the idiots who don’t get the science are the minority.

Oh no. Someone has a different opinion than me. He must be an idiot. He must not get "The Science".

I asked around a bit, for Manitoba specifically, since your username seems to imply you have at least an interest in that area.

What scientific argument is there for Walmart in Thompson to make masks mandatory, while Safeway does not?
What scentific argument is there for Best Western in Thompson to mandate masks while all the other hotels do not require it?

The nearest covid case was *literally* over 200 miles away. Do the survey there, and see how many people want a mandatory mask policy.

Leave it to the government to implement a mask policy. We don't need kneejerk reactions of franchise headquarters.

[Rockie]

Oh no. Someone has a different opinion than me. He must be an idiot. He must not get "The Sicence".

The irony is almost painful.

[digits_]

Oh no. Someone has a different opinion than me. He must be an idiot. He must not get "The Sicence".

The irony is almost painful.

Typo corrected

[northernpilot2]

You cant tell anyone what they should do in their own space.

This is true.

But a Westjet flight isn't "your own space". Nor is the supermarket. Nor public transit. They are private spaces owned by the companies that run them. They *do* have the right to set rules for the usage of their space. And you have the right to not use their space if you don't wish to follow those rules.

Will I comply with company policy? yes.
Do I agree with it? No.
Will I speak out against it? Yes.
Will it change things? I hope so

Leave it to the government to implement a mask policy. We don't need kneejerk reactions of franchise headquarters.

The government needs to go. They are a cancer. We need a new system.

[mbav8r]

Anyhow 8 out of 10 Manitobans support a public place masks mandate with 6 strongly in favour, so it sounds like the idiots who don’t get the science are the minority.

Oh no. Someone has a different opinion than me. He must be an idiot. He must not get "The Science".

I asked around a bit, for Manitoba specifically, since your username seems to imply you have at least an interest in that area.

What scientific argument is there for Walmart in Thompson to make masks mandatory, while Safeway does not?
What scentific argument is there for Best Western in Thompson to mandate masks while all the other hotels do not require it?

The nearest covid case was *literally* over 200 miles away. Do the survey there, and see how many people want a mandatory mask policy.

Leave it to the government to implement a mask policy. We don't need kneejerk reactions of franchise headquarters.

Well considering Manitoba had zero new cases for 7 weeks, with that being reported widely followed by a complete or near complete relaxation of the measures by people, we are now a hotspot. So the science to me says perhaps we should follow the recommendations or even mandate them until the pandemic is over, not until we the people feel it’s over.
I wear a mask , not because I enjoy it, not because I find them comfortable or even comforting but because most of the data says it helps reduce the chance of spreading it to others around me, I’m being considerate of my fellow humans and wish I could get the same from them.
As for you example up north, some get it, some don’t, wouldn’t you agree?
FYI, did your googling turn up anything about provincial travel restrictions to those areas, I’ll save you the trouble, there are restrictions in place.
Every single person should consider themselves infected when out and about, then act accordingly. I also consider myself infected when I’m out and act accordingly, quarantine excepted.

[Meatservo]

I'm kind of a latecomer to this discussion, so bear with me.

So there's a respiratory disease making the rounds, which is pretty reliably reported to be quite serious, and which is transmitted mostly through contact with droplets that emerge from an infected person's mouth and nose.

It's been satisfactorily demonstrated that the disease can be transmitted by people who aren't suffering from symptoms and have no real way to be sure they haven't come into contact with latent droplets on surfaces in the preceding two weeks.

It's pretty certain that the average layperson isn't medically qualified to differentiate between the symptoms of say, an ordinary cold or less serious form of the flu and the early symptoms of the CV-19 virus.

Wearing a mask in public that intercepts and captures a large number of droplets that emerge from your mouth and nose seems to me to make a lot of sense, unless you live in an isolated community that has had zero active cases for several weeks. If you're travelling outside such a community, you could either just wear a mask anyway or risk having to explain why you're special and don't need to wear one.

So generally the average Canadian can't be one hundred percent sure there aren't infected droplets coming out of their nose and mouth, but the wearing of a garment that captures a large percentage of these droplets is being hotly contested?

It would seem to me that there are a few reasons to object to masks:

1) You are from, and are presently in, a community that has zero active cases and has done for several weeks, AND screens and enforces a quarantine process on any new arrivals

2) You don't believe the CV-19 virus is as prevalent, and/or contagious, and/or capable of causing serious illness as is being reported -in your learned opinion

3) You don't give a shit

4) You have a psychological problem with the masks themselves

5) You feel like you look silly in a mask and don't like being told what to do

Are there any more reasons? Personally I feel that whether they admit it or not, #5 is probably the real reason for most people.

We're mostly all pilots here - I find it funny that people who argue about the prophylactic value of a face covering -especially the ones who are worried about looking silly and don't like being told what to do- are the same who are uncomplaining and proud to stamp about the public areas of airports, sit in the cockpits of their planes, and drive to the grocery store after work, in the daytime, wearing a reflective orange road-worker vest over their uniforms.

[47north]

I'm kind of a latecomer to this discussion, so bear with me.

So there's a respiratory disease making the rounds, which is pretty reliably reported to be quite serious, and which is transmitted mostly through contact with droplets that emerge from an infected person's mouth and nose.

It's been satisfactorily demonstrated that the disease can be transmitted by people who aren't suffering from symptoms and have no real way to be sure they haven't come into contact with latent droplets on surfaces in the preceding two weeks.

It's pretty certain that the average layperson isn't medically qualified to differentiate between the symptoms of say, an ordinary cold or less serious form of the flu and the early symptoms of the CV-19 virus.

Wearing a mask in public that intercepts and captures a large number of droplets that emerge from your mouth and nose seems to me to make a lot of sense, unless you live in an isolated community that has had zero active cases for several weeks. If you're travelling outside such a community, you could either just wear a mask anyway or risk having to explain why you're special and don't need to wear one.

So generally the average Canadian can't be one hundred percent sure there aren't infected droplets coming out of their nose and mouth, but the wearing of a garment that captures a large percentage of these droplets is being hotly contested?

It would seem to me that there are a few reasons to object to masks:

1) You are from, and are presently in, a community that has zero active cases and has done for several weeks, AND screens and enforces a quarantine process on any new arrivals

2) You don't believe the CV-19 virus is as prevalent, and/or contagious, and/or capable of causing serious illness as is being reported -in your learned opinion

3) You don't give a shit

4) You have a psychological problem with the masks themselves

5) You feel like you look silly in a mask and don't like being told what to do

Are there any more reasons? Personally I feel that whether they admit it or not, #5 is probably the real reason for most people.

We're mostly all pilots here - I find it funny that people who argue about the prophylactic value of a face covering -especially the ones who are worried about looking silly and don't like being told what to do- are the same who are uncomplaining and proud to stamp about the public areas of airports, sit in the cockpits of their planes, and drive to the grocery store after work, in the daytime, wearing a reflective orange road-worker vest over their uniforms.

6) You're just an a**hole

[northernpilot2]

I'm kind of a latecomer to this discussion, so bear with me.

So there's a respiratory disease making the rounds, which is pretty reliably reported to be quite serious, and which is transmitted mostly through contact with droplets that emerge from an infected person's mouth and nose.

It's been satisfactorily demonstrated that the disease can be transmitted by people who aren't suffering from symptoms and have no real way to be sure they haven't come into contact with latent droplets on surfaces in the preceding two weeks.

It's pretty certain that the average layperson isn't medically qualified to differentiate between the symptoms of say, an ordinary cold or less serious form of the flu and the early symptoms of the CV-19 virus.

Wearing a mask in public that intercepts and captures a large number of droplets that emerge from your mouth and nose seems to me to make a lot of sense, unless you live in an isolated community that has had zero active cases for several weeks. If you're travelling outside such a community, you could either just wear a mask anyway or risk having to explain why you're special and don't need to wear one.

So generally the average Canadian can't be one hundred percent sure there aren't infected droplets coming out of their nose and mouth, but the wearing of a garment that captures a large percentage of these droplets is being hotly contested?

It would seem to me that there are a few reasons to object to masks:

1) You are from, and are presently in, a community that has zero active cases and has done for several weeks, AND screens and enforces a quarantine process on any new arrivals

2) You don't believe the CV-19 virus is as prevalent, and/or contagious, and/or capable of causing serious illness as is being reported -in your learned opinion

3) You don't give a shit

4) You have a psychological problem with the masks themselves

5) You feel like you look silly in a mask and don't like being told what to do

Are there any more reasons? Personally I feel that whether they admit it or not, #5 is probably the real reason for most people.

We're mostly all pilots here - I find it funny that people who argue about the prophylactic value of a face covering -especially the ones who are worried about looking silly and don't like being told what to do- are the same who are uncomplaining and proud to stamp about the public areas of airports, sit in the cockpits of their planes, and drive to the grocery store after work, in the daytime, wearing a reflective orange road-worker vest over their uniforms.

7) Your able to think for yourself, you don't require to hold the government's hand when you need to cross the street.

[Meatservo]

7) Your able to think for yourself, ...

....*You're

You're right! I guess we'll never solve the mystery to how so many people thinking for themselves were able to nevertheless transmit COVID-19 to so many other people who were also thinking for themselves. It will stand as one of history's greatest mysteries.