Save Canadian Aviation March in Ottawa Oct 20th

[Old fella]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/aviato ... -1.5770398

Well done Gilles!
What you did today was great. Airline employees all over the country are struggling. The elected members can now see who these people are. Thank you for doing that.

The comment section on the cbc article is an interesting/difficult read.

I don’t think it’s that difficult a read myself. It gives a pretty good indication how the general public and likely people in politics really feel about the airlines. It’s coming from the prospective of ones not bias on the inside and have no stake in what happens. As I said in my first post, the general public has no sympathy for the airlines.

If the current government provides direct assistance to various airlines in whatever form that is, and at same time airlines are not refunding same taxpayers monies on cancelled trips that will add fuel to the non- sympathetic fire. There can be no doubt about that.

[rookiepilot]

I don’t think it’s that difficult a read myself. It gives a pretty good indication how the general public and likely people in politics really feel about the airlines. It’s coming from the prospective of ones not bias on the inside and have no stake in what happens. As I said in my first post, the general public has no sympathy for the airlines.

Absolutely None.

C-suite --= work for free for 2 years. How many millions do you need?

Mid six figure AC Asia route 777 captains, how about coming to the table to help those starting out?

That's bluntly my perspective.

If the attitude is, it's competition for government dollars to go to who is the loudest vs the most needy in our society, I am vocally not on your side.

[Gino Under]

A total collapse of the Canadian airline industry IS NOT AN OPTION.

Airline managers are paid the big bucks to figure out how to survive ‘n thrive. Not their employees. Government assistance should be given to those redundant or laid off airline employees (as well as those similarly affected in other industries) in the form of EI or CEWS.
This pandemic is more than a Black Swan event. With the worldwide airline industry losing $300,000 USD a minute (yes, that’s per minute) imagine what that looming collapse would mean?
Forking out $20 or $25 billion for our airlines survival will only prolong the funeral if we don’t get a vaccine or people don’t (or can’t) start to travel at a much greater rate than at present.
I doubt government assistance will have a dramatic effect many seem to be hoping for but something is sometimes better than nothing.

Gino

[mbav8r]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/aviato ... -1.5770398

Well done Gilles!
What you did today was great. Airline employees all over the country are struggling. The elected members can now see who these people are. Thank you for doing that.

Sadly, Trudeau’s acknowledgment referred to the $1B CEWS already spend on this matter. The rally or whatever that was only got a few minutes of airtime and is already forgotten. Remember this come election time, this government sees united delta and AA flight availability at all major airports.

What is not mentioned, CEWS is just fancy employment insurance, slightly more but EI just the same, so let’s take 2/3rds off that billion because those employees would’ve been drawing from the EI account otherwise.

[twa22]

I really think some of you really don't understand what's at stake here...

Let the airlines burn you say? Ok sure, they have screwed over pax for a long time, because well, that's what big greedy corporations do, just like how they screw their employees too. This applies EVERYWHERE, not just airlines.

What do you think will happen when airlines start to go under, or barely skimming above the surface? You think customers will get treated better, or employees? Nope, it'll be quite the opposite. That sentiment you have now that let them burn, they deserve it... Guess what, it'll only be worse later on... But hey what do I know, I'm clearly not as smart as some of you here

Also, why the hell should the 777 captain sacrific his salary for the betterment of others? I am a type of person who is willing to do whatever I can for someone to help them out, but to give up my own salary, which I have rightfully earned, is not something that is feasible. It will save what? Maybe 1 pilot? 2 at most? You can argue that if all the top dogs sacrificed their salary, they could save a lot more junior guys... Yea ok, but for how long? And then if they got saved, what would they be doing? Getting paid to sit at home because there's no flying anyways? Come on guys, be realistic about this... Besides, majority have already taken a pay cut at the majors, to the tune of 40%, so what more do you want?

Also, the march wasn't just about bailouts... To a smaller degree it was about relaxing quarantine measures, so people can start traveling more which will in turn create more cash flow...

People, be reasonable here... If aviation goes under, the repercussions will be dire. Don't believe me? Ok fine, let's talk when shit hits the fan really hard

[Gino Under]

I think it’s presumptuous to suggest Covid screening will have a dramatic effect on improving passenger loads and airline’s return to profitability. The country’s economic reality, if our airlines start to fail - will be devastating and long term. To say the least.

[golden hawk]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politic ... al-update/

There's a catch though. Better write nice things about your benefactor!!

[twa22]

I think it’s presumptuous to suggest Covid screening will have a dramatic effect on improving passenger loads and airline’s return to profitability. The country’s economic reality, if our airlines start to fail - will be devastating and long term. To say the least.

I don't know if you're referring to my comment, but if you are, I was not suggesting that covid screening will have a dramatic effect, all i'm saying is easing restrictions and putting measures in place will help things pick up slowly and begin heading in the right direction again...

I will say it again, this pandemic is a test of our humanity, and these measures and lockdowns will push us to the brink if things don't change things in the near future

[bald seagull]

If you're under 40, go back to school and retool for a different career...just in case.

If you're over 40, get a truck driving license, and pay your bills.

[TT1900]

I really think some of you really don't understand what's at stake here...

Also, why the hell should the 777 captain sacrific his salary for the betterment of others? I am a type of person who is willing to do whatever I can for someone to help them out, but to give up my own salary, which I have rightfully earned, is not something that is feasible. It will save what? Maybe 1 pilot? 2 at most? You can argue that if all the top dogs sacrificed their salary, they could save a lot more junior guys... Yea ok, but for how long? And then if they got saved, what would they be doing? Getting paid to sit at home because there's no flying anyways? Come on guys, be realistic about this... Besides, majority have already taken a pay cut at the majors, to the tune of 40%, so what more do you want?

I think most understand whats at stake; non-essential leisure travel. Is it nice to be able to fly to Mexico for $500? Sure. Essential, absolutely not and not worth wasting further billions on. If the current airlines go bust viable sectors will be picked up by new entrants. Will it suck for the current ownership/shareholders? Yep, but its not the governments job to look after shareholders. Critical services, cargo, and corporate/charter are all trucking right along and stand to gain. A solid portion of business travel, what's left of it, will be done by corporate/charter anyways now that many companies are actively doing the cost-benefit comparisons and have experienced the benefits of non-airline travel. Some of us see immense opportunity right now. Flamesuit on, hate away.

Do you not see the irony in saying the 777 Captain shouldn't sacrifice his pay for the betterment of his co-workers, then demanding taxpayers sacrifice even more to maintain the lifestyle of a person who works less than twelve days a month and makes 6-7 times what the average Canadian does? Taxpayer better let that four-bar buy a better boat next year! Yes, they have rightfully earned that pay when the going was good, but now it's not (no surprise, cyclical industry) and they need to come to terms with that.

Do I think the airline industry has been dealt a crappy hand? Yes. Do I think rapid testing in place of 14-day quarantine should be given a solid look? Absolutely. Do I feel bad for colleagues who chose to keep flying and went to an airline? Of course. Do I think the government should turn good money into bad by throwing it at the airlines when every other G7 nation has shown it to be ineffective? No.

[twa22]

I really think some of you really don't understand what's at stake here...

Also, why the hell should the 777 captain sacrific his salary for the betterment of others? I am a type of person who is willing to do whatever I can for someone to help them out, but to give up my own salary, which I have rightfully earned, is not something that is feasible. It will save what? Maybe 1 pilot? 2 at most? You can argue that if all the top dogs sacrificed their salary, they could save a lot more junior guys... Yea ok, but for how long? And then if they got saved, what would they be doing? Getting paid to sit at home because there's no flying anyways? Come on guys, be realistic about this... Besides, majority have already taken a pay cut at the majors, to the tune of 40%, so what more do you want?

I think most understand whats at stake; non-essential leisure travel. Is it nice to be able to fly to Mexico for $500? Sure. Essential, absolutely not and not worth wasting further billions on. If the current airlines go bust viable sectors will be picked up by new entrants. Will it suck for the current ownership/shareholders? Yep, but its not the governments job to look after shareholders. Critical services, cargo, and corporate/charter are all trucking right along and stand to gain. A solid portion of business travel, what's left of it, will be done by corporate/charter anyways now that many companies are actively doing the cost-benefit comparisons and have experienced the benefits of non-airline travel. Some of us see immense opportunity right now. Flamesuit on, hate away.

Do you not see the irony in saying the 777 Captain shouldn't sacrifice his pay for the betterment of his co-workers, then demanding taxpayers sacrifice even more to maintain the lifestyle of a person who works less than twelve days a month and makes 6-7 times what the average Canadian does? Taxpayer better let that four-bar buy a better boat next year! Yes, they have rightfully earned that pay when the going was good, but now it's not (no surprise, cyclical industry) and they need to come to terms with that.

Do I think the airline industry has been dealt a crappy hand? Yes. Do I think rapid testing in place of 14-day quarantine should be given a solid look? Absolutely. Do I feel bad for colleagues who chose to keep flying and went to an airline? Of course. Do I think the government should turn good money into bad by throwing it at the airlines when every other G7 nation has shown it to be ineffective? No.

It's more then just the airline industry and leisure travel that's at risk here, but anyways, I won't argue further

As for the 777 captain statement I made, sure, it may be a little ironic, but I did state that there have been paycuts too. And if we are talking about taxpayer dollars, there's a lot worse things our tax payer dollars are funding, but this isn't a political forum and i'm not here to talk about tax payer dollars and where it should be going

Bottom line is, we can agree to disagree, and that is fine, we all have our own opinions, but it's easy for those who are not directly impacted by this to say screw the airlines... just as I can say well screw every other industry that got a bailout, why were they more deserving?

[twa22]

I do want to reiterate that my stance isn't regarding bailouts per say, but this has been the main topic that has been focused on... I guess bailout has been used interchangeably with easing quarantine restrictions also

While I do believe some form of compensation such as a loan in exchange for a government stake in the company is the most reasonable action, I think what truely needs to be addressed more so is the quarantine measures

Just wanted to make it clear so it doesn't seem like I'm asking the gov't to give billions in handouts...

[rookiepilot]

Twa22, your elitism posts remind me of way too many in the United States right now in the airline C-Suite. They are not the first, nor the last.

They all want their profits treated as pure capitalism, untouched, untaxed and unfettered, and when losses occur, they run straight to socialism. But only for them. Forget anyone else lining up for the food banks down there, dealing with homelessness.

United was happy to take US aid. Until it was made clear it came with conditions on executive compensation. Then they said, no thanks. We'll fire people instead.

Corporate Tax Rates in the US have fallen for the last 20 years. And listen to the screaming that they might go up.

I'm an ex floor trader. There is no one more capitalist that I am here. But the inequality has gone way too far.

[twa22]

Twa22, your elitism posts remind me of way too many in the United States right now in the airline C-Suite. They are not the first, nor the last.

They all want their profits treated as pure capitalism, untouched, untaxed and unfettered, and when losses occur, they run straight to socialism. But only for them. Forget anyone else lining up for the food banks down there, dealing with homelessness.

United was happy to take US aid. Until it was made clear it came with conditions on executive compensation. Then they said, no thanks. We'll fire people instead.

Corporate Tax Rates in the US have fallen for the last 20 years. And listen to the screaming that they might go up.

I'm an ex floor trader. There is no one more capitalist that I am here. But the inequality has gone way too far.

lol

did you read what I said? I didn't say screw every other industry, what I said was

Bottom line is, we can agree to disagree, and that is fine, we all have our own opinions, but it's easy for those who are not directly impacted by this to say screw the airlines... just as I can say well screw every other industry that got a bailout, why were they more deserving?

"just as I can say" doesn't mean "i'm saying screw every other industry"

I then clearly reiterated my stance where I said that while some form of monetary compensation would help, placing conditions and having a gov't stake in an airline would be a better solution then nothing at all. Would a flat out bailout be nice? Sure it would be. Is it realistic? Nope. Do airlines deserve to be bailed out? I think they deserve to be helped out, so in turn they can help out their employees and their paying passengers, along with indirectly helping others who help keep aviation going but don't directly work for an airline

I clearly said in my previous posts that corporations are some of shadiest out there and that they try to screw their employees and customers whenever they can.

I really don't know what elitism you are reading into... but anyways, no point in talking about this anymore

[TT1900]

I think it’s a mistake to equate current airlines failing with the collapse of the airline industry. If Air Canada went totally bust tomorrow others, either already in existence or newly formed, would pick up viable routes. Yes, it would be an uncertain time for employees but nothing that hasn’t been done before. Pilots are of course the most vocal opponents of this as they have the most to lose due to their compensation structure that values time-in vice individual ability. A baggage handler doesn’t care what tail they’re throwing stuff into. An AME doesn’t care what tail they’re fixing. Most support has already been cut loose by airlines and their jobs contracted out to third parties anyways.

[Gino Under]

twa22

Actually, I wasn’t thinking about your post specifically. But, I do agree with what you’re saying. We know passenger cabins are extremely safe due to the AC/Press Systems. In fact, there are only 44 confirmed COVID cases among 1 point something million passengers carried worldwide since this pandemic began. I also believe an industry collapse is at hand and the measures you rightfully suggest are unlikely to entice an appreciable return to acceptable passenger loads before it collapses. Will passengers pay for the preflight testing? (I doubt it)
I just wish the world would go after the Chinese government for the industry’s financial losses instead of us leaning on our government for financial support. The Chinese government initially understated and hid this corona virus from the world until it was too late.
All of this is on them.

Cheers,
Gino

[skypirate88]

twa22

Actually, I wasn’t thinking about your post specifically. But, I do agree with what you’re saying. We know passenger cabins are extremely safe due to the AC/Press Systems. In fact, there are only 44 confirmed COVID cases among 1 point something million passengers carried worldwide since this pandemic began. I also believe an industry collapse is at hand and the measures you rightfully suggest are unlikely to entice an appreciable return to acceptable passenger loads before it collapses. Will passengers pay for the preflight testing? (I doubt it)
I just wish the world would go after the Chinese government for the industry’s financial losses instead of us leaning on our government for financial support. The Chinese government initially understated and hid this corona virus from the world until it was too late.
All of this is on them.

Cheers,
Gino

1.2 billion, not million. 44 cases in 1.2 BILLION

[digits_]

I just wish the world would go after the Chinese government for the industry’s financial losses instead of us leaning on our government for financial support. The Chinese government initially understated and hid this corona virus from the world until it was too late.
All of this is on them.

What would have happend if the Chinese government called our government and said "heyyy, so we have a virus here that's a bit nasty. We can't get rid of it, we suggest you close down your borders, quarantaine everyone for 2 weeks like we are doing so we can get this under control"?

Absolutely nothing.

[DanWEC]

As of today, in Alberta at least, rapid testing is replacing the 14 day quarantine!

All of us who made our voices heard by marching on the Hill on Wed, we actually MADE A DIFFERENCE! Congratulations to everyone!!!!

I'm sure the crabs in a buckets who've posted on here will also reap the rewards in some way. And to that, you're welcome. Enjoy the empty bucket.

[AuxBatOn]

You think the march on Tuesday had an effect for a policy announced today?

[Gino Under]

China is financially responsible for all this. How each country handles it within their own borders is a separate issue. If China had been honest, forthcoming and responsible in the first place the reality today would be totally different.

Skypirate
Typo. You’re correct. I should have used billion. I’m not used to these crazy numbers. My bad.

Gino, Ret.