Aerobatics Training

[photofly]

Foolish or not, they do have a reduced life expectancy.

[digits_]

Sure, but those are caused by accidents during shows or low level training, not during the first time they try a maneuver at altitude.

[fleetcanuck]

I thought Sean Tucker had taken to the silk three times because he couldn't get out of a situation at altitude. I know of one for sure and thought I had heard reference to two more.

I am also pretty sure that USAF test pilots were pretty well trained in a side variety of 'unusual attitudes'.

[Squaretail]

If you want to do it without, at least do it in a proper aircraft...................... Bob Hoover was self taught in aerobatics.

Military aviators do not receive aerobatic training? As naturally gifted and hard working as he indeed was, I'm not ready to believe he just flew straight out of the womb knife edge and went straight into a half cuban 8.

As I recall, There was an interview on YouTube with Bob where he explained how his instructor was impressed on his first dual flights that Bob had already accrued much of his aerobatic skill before enlisting.

Skill, work ethic, attitude and training. Don't skimp on any one of them.

Indeed. If you want to learn this stuff yourself, it wouldn’t hurt to study the master.

[Squaretail]

Foolish or not, they do have a reduced life expectancy.

That would seem to indicate that the further limits of performing are of increased risk, than the learning of. I know of way more dead guys who arguably were of way higher skill who perished at the performance level than those at the neophyte level. It’s possible of course that there are a lot of unknown accidents where maybe someone was indeed trying an aerobatic manoeuvre, but one would think that it would be more evident in the accident record.

One can say that aerobatics at whatever level, assume a greater amount of risk. But so do a lot of flying activities. The learning of aerobatics seems to me to carry no greater risk than its advanced learning and performance levels of activity. After all, you don’t need an aerobatics instructor rating to do aerobatics. There are no level systems, no paper to mark ones proficiency, not that those would make it safer or a difference. So who determines how proficient you are? Ultimately, like lots of pilot decision making judgement calls, that falls only on you.

[tsgarp]

That’s a bit of an over reaction.

Nope. It’s a ‘just right reaction’. Idiots need to be told, in the clearest terms possible, that they are being idiots. It reminds me of a quote I once saw; ‘Sometimes we must crush our children’s dreams before our children’s dreams crush them’

[tsgarp]

That’s a bit of an over reaction.

Nope. It’s a ‘just right reaction’. Idiots need to be told, in the clearest terms possible, that they are being idiots. It reminds me of a quote I once saw; ‘Sometimes we must crush our children’s dreams before our children’s dreams crush them’

[digits_]

Alternatively, you could use your listed experience to explain why you think it's dangerous, and what you expect would go wrong if people tried it. That might be more effective.

[Squaretail]

That’s a bit of an over reaction.

Nope. It’s a ‘just right reaction’. Idiots need to be told, in the clearest terms possible, that they are being idiots. It reminds me of a quote I once saw; ‘Sometimes we must crush our children’s dreams before our children’s dreams crush them’

Damn, I hope you don’t have kids.

[UprightAviation]

Well we don’t recommend experimenting in aerobatics without any formal lessons, it has been known to happen. We have a Super D, an Extra 300 and very experienced Instructors. We recommend doing some dual with us, or there are options in western Canada depending where you are located. This training used to be difficult to find without going south of the border and now there’s really no reason to be punching inverted holes in the sky without some dual. We’ve had students who’ve trained with us and own aerobatic capable airplanes, not able to enter or recover properly from a stall, they were out experimenting with aerobatic manoeuvres prior to flying with us.

Fly safe
Upright Aviation Academy

[tsgarp]

Alternatively, you could use your listed experience to explain why you think it's dangerous, and what you expect would go wrong if people tried it. That might be more effective.

The majority of people, the first time they go inverted (even with proper ground briefing and sometimes a demo) loose situational awareness and do really bad things like try to pull through a vertical downline while only 20 knots below Vne. If the instructor where not there, they would have over-stressed the aircraft and/or G-LOCed themselves. Aerobatics are disorienting until you've done them for a while.

Bob Hoover taught himself aerobatics. It is unlikely that you are the next Bob Hoover. It is more likely that you are this guy:



...or this guy...

[tsgarp]

Right.

I fail to see how your high performance single turbines or transport category aircraft experience is relevant. But nice flex! (Unless you flew aerobatics in them, then I retract that statement)

It's drama like this that prevents open discussion about teaching yourself aerobatics. The pilot I bought my plane from taught himself. There are many others. Seems like it's a dirty little secret that can't be discussed and must be taboo.

It's legal and it's possible. Instead of shooting the messenger, you could use your experience to explain the dangers, as others have done. Silencing someone because they dared to do something you disagree with, or because they point out to other people that there is an aerobatic option they might not have been aware of, is quite disturbing really. Is that something you teach your students? Or how you deal with your crew members?

You are foolish. Your advice is foolish and dangerous. Anyone that listens to you is likely to damage their aircraft or get themselves killed.

My reasons for stating this were given in the post above.

My high performance single turbine experience involves flying/teaching aerobatics. My transport category experience does not involve aerobatics, but does involve a lot of aggressive manoeuvring below 500' AGL/AWL. What do you fly for work?

[tsgarp]

That’s a bit of an over reaction.

Nope. It’s a ‘just right reaction’. Idiots need to be told, in the clearest terms possible, that they are being idiots. It reminds me of a quote I once saw; ‘Sometimes we must crush our children’s dreams before our children’s dreams crush them’

Damn, I hope you don’t have kids.

I do. My daughter was Valedictorian for her graduation and my son won 3 academic awards. Stick in this business long enough and you might end up working for them.

[tsgarp]

Well we don’t recommend experimenting in aerobatics without any formal lessons, it has been known to happen. We have a Super D, an Extra 300 and very experienced Instructors. We recommend doing some dual with us, or there are options in western Canada depending where you are located. This training used to be difficult to find without going south of the border and now there’s really no reason to be punching inverted holes in the sky without some dual. We’ve had students who’ve trained with us and own aerobatic capable airplanes, not able to enter or recover properly from a stall, they were out experimenting with aerobatic manoeuvres prior to flying with us.

Fly safe
Upright Aviation Academy

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Wisdom

[digits_]

Right.

I fail to see how your high performance single turbines or transport category aircraft experience is relevant. But nice flex! (Unless you flew aerobatics in them, then I retract that statement)

It's drama like this that prevents open discussion about teaching yourself aerobatics. The pilot I bought my plane from taught himself. There are many others. Seems like it's a dirty little secret that can't be discussed and must be taboo.

It's legal and it's possible. Instead of shooting the messenger, you could use your experience to explain the dangers, as others have done. Silencing someone because they dared to do something you disagree with, or because they point out to other people that there is an aerobatic option they might not have been aware of, is quite disturbing really. Is that something you teach your students? Or how you deal with your crew members?

You are foolish. Your advice is foolish and dangerous. Anyone that listens to you is likely to damage their aircraft or get themselves killed.

No, anyone who listens to me will be made aware it is a legal option that some people have pursued succesfully. And that I hate unnecessary drama.

I fail to see how airshow or helicopter crashes are relevant. Could it be because you couldn’t find any accident reports from pilots crashing aerobatic airplanes while doing initial aerobatic training themselves?

[Squaretail]

Nope. It’s a ‘just right reaction’. Idiots need to be told, in the clearest terms possible, that they are being idiots. It reminds me of a quote I once saw; ‘Sometimes we must crush our children’s dreams before our children’s dreams crush them’

Damn, I hope you don’t have kids.

I do. My daughter was Valedictorian for her graduation and my son won 3 academic awards. Stick in this business long enough and you might end up working for them.

Unlikely if you took the step of crushing their aviation dreams.

[PilotDAR]

It seems that the theme of this thread has drifted toward should one attempt to teach themselves aerobatics - it's legal so it must be okay.

For some pilots, maybe, for other pilots, likely not. How do we tell these pilots from each other (when the "not" pilots probably can't tell themselves). So, a few basic bars to cross, which hopefully are generally agreed:

Don't attempt self taught aerobatics in a plane you don't own, unless the owner has given you permission to do this. It's not fair to subject the airplane to what could be extra strain or damage from an error, and leaving that problem with someone else - perhaps an unknown problem.

Read the flight manual before you go flying. If what you intend to do is not listed in the flight manual, ask yourself why. If what you intend to do is described as "not approved" or "prohibited", you really should give this hearty consideration!

Aerobatics involve increased/decreased G loading, does the plane have a G meter installed? If not, how would you know what you're doing/have done? It's a limitation, which you must abide by, how will you assure you don't exceed a limit?

Understand that when you initiate an aerobatic maneuver, you're probably pointing the plane toward the outside of the maneuvering envelope. Of course, you intend to not exceed the envelope limitations, but how sure are you that you can keep the plane from exceeding (like when it's pointed very down, and you're not pulling out quickly enough)?

I've done a lot of things, and taught myself a lot of things on planes. Some of it I will never recommend, nor post here. The fact that I did something, does not mean that I'm willing to tell someone else that they can/should. Some pilots undertake flying which exceeds their capabilities, and occasionally, it ends less well than intended. Yes, I can think of four airplanes I've known, which were structurally damaged by errant aerobatics. All landed safely. Two were obviously damaged, and did not fly ever again. Two others (one of which I flew a few times) were flown with undetected structural damage, which was only found much later - that's irresponsible.

Once, in my very early days, I flew a rental too aggressively, and damaged it non structurally - my fault. I landed, held the keys, and reported it. I got the scowl and firm words, and paid for the repair myself. Twice since, I have damaged planes while the flying pilot (neither while flying them - both ground maneuvering) in ways which were not apparent. Again, I grounded the plane, reported the damage, and took responsibility for the repair. So, if you're thinking to self teach aerobatics, are you willing to take responsibility for the damage you might do to the plane if it does not go as planned?

[photofly]

Nope. It’s a ‘just right reaction’. Idiots need to be told, in the clearest terms possible, that they are being idiots. It reminds me of a quote I once saw; ‘Sometimes we must crush our children’s dreams before our children’s dreams crush them’

Damn, I hope you don’t have kids.

I do. My daughter was Valedictorian for her graduation and my son won 3 academic awards.

Are they fulfilling their dreams, or yours?

[digits_]

So, if you're thinking to self teach aerobatics, are you willing to take responsibility for the damage you might do to the plane if it does not go as planned?

Let me rewrite that:

So, if you're thinking of flying an airplane, are you willing to take responsibility for the damage you might do to the plane if it does not go as planned?

I know of many more airplanes that got damaged during landings, even mighty 172's, than airplanes that got damaged during aerobatics.

I've done a lot of things, and taught myself a lot of things on planes. Some of it I will never recommend, nor post here.

That's your right of course, but why not? Assuming it was legal, why the secrecy? Or, more relevant to this topic: would you vilify other people who tried the same things you did? Chances are, other people will want to attempt the same things you did, might as well give them as much information as possible so they can decide if it's a good fit for them.

[tsgarp]

Right.

I fail to see how your high performance single turbines or transport category aircraft experience is relevant. But nice flex! (Unless you flew aerobatics in them, then I retract that statement)

It's drama like this that prevents open discussion about teaching yourself aerobatics. The pilot I bought my plane from taught himself. There are many others. Seems like it's a dirty little secret that can't be discussed and must be taboo.

It's legal and it's possible. Instead of shooting the messenger, you could use your experience to explain the dangers, as others have done. Silencing someone because they dared to do something you disagree with, or because they point out to other people that there is an aerobatic option they might not have been aware of, is quite disturbing really. Is that something you teach your students? Or how you deal with your crew members?

You are foolish. Your advice is foolish and dangerous. Anyone that listens to you is likely to damage their aircraft or get themselves killed.

No, anyone who listens to me will be made aware it is a legal option that some people have pursued succesfully. And that I hate unnecessary drama.

I fail to see how airshow or helicopter crashes are relevant. Could it be because you couldn’t find any accident reports from pilots crashing aerobatic airplanes while doing initial aerobatic training themselves?

It is also legal to attempt to prevent COVID by giving yourself a bleach enema. You have placed yourself in good company digits.

[tsgarp]

Damn, I hope you don’t have kids.

I do. My daughter was Valedictorian for her graduation and my son won 3 academic awards.

Are they fulfilling their dreams, or yours?

We don’t have dreams. We have objectives and plans to achieve them.

[photofly]

It is also legal to attempt to prevent COVID by giving yourself a bleach enema. You have placed yourself in good company digits.

In a thread about aerobatics, that is the craziest non-sequitur I have ever read. I think we need a new version of Godwin's Law, except about COVID19 instead of the Nazis. Double bubble if you can squeeze Trump and COVID19 into the same retort (which, apparently, you can).

[Squaretail]

It seems that the theme of this thread has drifted toward should one attempt to teach themselves aerobatics - it's legal so it must be okay.

Some pilots already have figured out the tenuous relationship between legality and safety. Some have not, and some never will. Unfortunately that’s part of the trade off with a less burdensome regulatory structure.

For some pilots, maybe, for other pilots, likely not. How do we tell these pilots from each other (when the "not" pilots probably can't tell themselves). So, a few basic bars to cross, which hopefully are generally agreed:

Don't attempt self taught aerobatics in a plane you don't own, unless the owner has given you permission to do this. It's not fair to subject the airplane to what could be extra strain or damage from an error, and leaving that problem with someone else - perhaps an unknown problem.

Read the flight manual before you go flying. If what you intend to do is not listed in the flight manual, ask yourself why. If what you intend to do is described as "not approved" or "prohibited", you really should give this hearty consideration!

Aerobatics involve increased/decreased G loading, does the plane have a G meter installed? If not, how would you know what you're doing/have done? It's a limitation, which you must abide by, how will you assure you don't exceed a limit?

Understand that when you initiate an aerobatic maneuver, you're probably pointing the plane toward the outside of the maneuvering envelope. Of course, you intend to not exceed the envelope limitations, but how sure are you that you can keep the plane from exceeding (like when it's pointed very down, and you're not pulling out quickly enough)?

Unfortunately, you’re probably only preaching to the choir. I mean, do you think some internet words are going to change someone who maybe already doesn’t read manuals, does stuff without permission on other people’s airplanes and has no real understanding about g loading is going to change their mind or behaviour? I agree with what you’ve said, but I’m not who this message should reach.

I've done a lot of things, and taught myself a lot of things on planes. Some of it I will never recommend, nor post here. The fact that I did something, does not mean that I'm willing to tell someone else that they can/should.

I’m also not willing to tell people they can’t or shouldn’t. I’m not the king of aviation after all. At best all I feel I can offer is caution about such things.

Some pilots undertake flying which exceeds their capabilities, and occasionally, it ends less well than intended.

That happens everywhere in flying though. I know some pilots that it’s a challenge just to get around the circuit safely. Frankly, I’m way less worried about someone trying the odd loop, than their first take off in the dark or real penetration of cloud. Little airplanes make it home after far worse abuse.

are you willing to take responsibility for the damage you might do to the plane if it does not go as planned?

If you own the airplane, who else is going to take the responsibility? As I said before, the better advice, and maybe more effective one, is don’t take anyone with you.

[PilotDAR]

If you own the airplane, who else is going to take the responsibility?

I'm aware of two attempts to make an insurance claim for mysterious wrinkles which appeared on the upper wing skins. In both cases, the insurer, after investigation (how I got involved) declined paying out a claim, as they demonstrated that a limitation of the airplane had been exceeded by intentional flying, and that was not covered.

So, to more direct, consider if you are prepared to pay out of your own pocket if you damage the plane doing aerobatics. Remember that aerobatic certified planes have a margin built in, non aerobatic planes do not have that same margin for error in conducting unapproved maneuvers, and it might be on the pilot to pay to fix it!

[Squaretail]

If you own the airplane, who else is going to take the responsibility?

I'm aware of two attempts to make an insurance claim for mysterious wrinkles which appeared on the upper wing skins. In both cases, the insurer, after investigation (how I got involved) declined paying out a claim, as they demonstrated that a limitation of the airplane had been exceeded by intentional flying, and that was not covered.

So, to more direct, consider if you are prepared to pay out of your own pocket if you damage the plane doing aerobatics. Remember that aerobatic certified planes have a margin built in, non aerobatic planes do not have that same margin for error in conducting unapproved maneuvers, and it might be on the pilot to pay to fix it!

Again, I would contend that the pilot who tries to shirk this responsibility, also isn’t a person to seek the reasonable advice in this thread. The contention that someone should be banned from this forum under the pretence that the stance taken here is excessively dangerous, again is a bit of an over reaction. I would be of the stance that IF someone were to heed all your caution, and still want to give it a go themselves, well it’s their freedom to try.