Cat:
Very interesting suggestions.
Chief Pilots already have some specific duties with respect to flight safetyand its the OpsMgr that has the ultimate responsibility for the conduct of safe flight operations.
The aspect of giving Chief Pilots some form of legal power is good bit of creative thinking. I wonder what the process might be for that to take place. I'm sure there will be positives and negatives to consider. Hopefully maybe someone with a legal or law enforcement background might come forward with some ideas on that aspect.
LH .. are you there? You've usually got a pretty good grip on that sort of stuff.
I gave the covert ride as a passenger idea some thought today and since I know all local Inspectors by sight from a thousand yards, it wouldn't take long before the "undercover" passengers would be seen for what they are ... plants. I wondered what it miught work like if a couple of them showed up at a float operator for a fly-in fishing trip with an Otter load of junk and chartered a Beaver just to see what would happen ... then the concept of entrapment popped into my head .. huummm how to deal with this? For sure the President of Bloggins Airways would be crying foul ... sure Bloggins wouldn't have turned away the trip if it was a member of the public, but when old Joe Bloggins gets busted he'll raise a huge stink about how his rights of one form or another were violated by TC.
Fog
Poor Record Keeping.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
The Old Fogducker
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1784
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:13 pm
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
When you look at who really has ultimate authority over flight safety with regard to pilots and their competance and decision making track record the Chief Pilot trumps the operations manager for the simple reason that you can be a Operations Manager and not even hold a pilots license, therefore logic would dictate that a non pilot can not over rule the Chief Pilot when it comes to flight safety.
I have been through that senario and trust me a non pilot Ops Manager can not over rule a Chief Pilots decisions....at least not when I was in those positions.
The deputizing of a Chief Pilot can be solved by changing the present law if necessary....
....I know that this idea will probably bring on a flood of pro and con posts, but somehow we have to find a better system than that now in place.
Correction the industry not me as I'm no longer part of Canadian Aviation and do not have any desire to be.
Cat
I have been through that senario and trust me a non pilot Ops Manager can not over rule a Chief Pilots decisions....at least not when I was in those positions.
The deputizing of a Chief Pilot can be solved by changing the present law if necessary....
....I know that this idea will probably bring on a flood of pro and con posts, but somehow we have to find a better system than that now in place.
Correction the industry not me as I'm no longer part of Canadian Aviation and do not have any desire to be.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
The Old Fogducker
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1784
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:13 pm
Cat:
The pro & con discussions here would be a good thing. At least we could give them some thought.
Maybe it will draw out some of the deeper thinkers that read this forum ... heck I'd even welcome some of the drivel posts that resemble the scribblings on a washroom wall at a truck stop. You know the type ... my dad can beat your dad .. cannot .. can too .. can't .. can too .. etc.
Fog
The pro & con discussions here would be a good thing. At least we could give them some thought.
Maybe it will draw out some of the deeper thinkers that read this forum ... heck I'd even welcome some of the drivel posts that resemble the scribblings on a washroom wall at a truck stop. You know the type ... my dad can beat your dad .. cannot .. can too .. can't .. can too .. etc.
Fog
-
duplicate2
- Rank 5
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:54 am
- Location: Limbo
Who's going to keep an eye on the CP then? I can't imagine that you think all CPs are beyond reproach when it comes to safety vs. profit and keeping their own job. The CP must still work for the owner, meaning they can be fired if the owner gets pissed at too many cancelled flights (not that that's right).Cat Driver wrote:Go back to giving Chief Pilots full responsibility for flight safety in their company flight department. Then deputize them and give them the same power as a law officer with regards to the Aeronautics Act and the Regulations.
It still comes back to TC regulating the cop/CPs.
-
snaproll20
- Rank 7
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:50 pm
Fogducker.
Your post was excellent and contains many good ideas.
Cat Driver,
You really must tell more about the Air West story.
In this business, the CP, especially, gets caught between the owner and TC and usually comes out the loser. Many of us do not realize this until it is too late.
Regardless of whether the Ops Manager is a pilot or not, TC should legislate that once a company reaches a certain size, the Owner can not be the Ops Manager. There is a distinct and nasty conflict of interest in this situation. It seems Cat ran into that problem where the Owner overrides safety. Air West was a particularly nasty operator according to old sources and I heard stories more than 20 years ago. That is why I urge anyone with stories going back even those 20 years to speak out and help toss this situation.
Fog Ducker has pointed out that he could have been a statistic years ago and I feel the same way. Nothing changes unless everyone stands up and demands it.
TC is useless in dealing with reported problems. They lean on good people and ignore the serious issues.
The industry is moving into a very, very nasty period right now where low-time pilots will be promoted into the place of people gone to the airlines.
If you couple low experience ( invincibility) with poor maintenance and lousy company culture and throw in the fatigue factor, there will be a lot more grieving going on.
So, speak up, or be part of the problem.
Your post was excellent and contains many good ideas.
Cat Driver,
You really must tell more about the Air West story.
In this business, the CP, especially, gets caught between the owner and TC and usually comes out the loser. Many of us do not realize this until it is too late.
Regardless of whether the Ops Manager is a pilot or not, TC should legislate that once a company reaches a certain size, the Owner can not be the Ops Manager. There is a distinct and nasty conflict of interest in this situation. It seems Cat ran into that problem where the Owner overrides safety. Air West was a particularly nasty operator according to old sources and I heard stories more than 20 years ago. That is why I urge anyone with stories going back even those 20 years to speak out and help toss this situation.
Fog Ducker has pointed out that he could have been a statistic years ago and I feel the same way. Nothing changes unless everyone stands up and demands it.
TC is useless in dealing with reported problems. They lean on good people and ignore the serious issues.
The industry is moving into a very, very nasty period right now where low-time pilots will be promoted into the place of people gone to the airlines.
If you couple low experience ( invincibility) with poor maintenance and lousy company culture and throw in the fatigue factor, there will be a lot more grieving going on.
So, speak up, or be part of the problem.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Sure I would be willing to relate what happened when I brought a criminal complaint against Air West Airlines and Transport Canada in 1975 by demanding the RCMP investigate.
It will take me a bit of time to relate it in a proper manner but will give you some food for thought about how this industry really operates behind the closed doors in TC.
It goes without saying that I was terminated by Air West but in the end after the RCMP used a search warrant to get a real look at what was going on I managed to open some doors. One of which was the door to the office of the Superintendent of Air Regulations, it was opened for him to walk out of his job.
I would like to think that there are people alive today that would not be here now had I not performed my duties as Chief Pilot and shut down a very dangerous operation.
I did not lose a job, I changed the culture prevelant at the time and opened up a new job for the next Chief Pilot.
Cat
It will take me a bit of time to relate it in a proper manner but will give you some food for thought about how this industry really operates behind the closed doors in TC.
It goes without saying that I was terminated by Air West but in the end after the RCMP used a search warrant to get a real look at what was going on I managed to open some doors. One of which was the door to the office of the Superintendent of Air Regulations, it was opened for him to walk out of his job.
I would like to think that there are people alive today that would not be here now had I not performed my duties as Chief Pilot and shut down a very dangerous operation.
I did not lose a job, I changed the culture prevelant at the time and opened up a new job for the next Chief Pilot.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Fog,
Im no lawyer, at least not more than I have to be to try and intrepret the CARS, but I dont think entrapment applies in Canada.
I have a buddy who was setup in a sting by Fish and Wildlife, it got to the point where they were engouraging him to commit more offences even buying the gas and beer. He was not ablt to use entrapment as a defence. F&W do have more power than most law enforcentent agencies.
Or what about an undercover cop posing as a hooker, entrapment? no because you were gonna pick up a hooker anyway.
As for the idea of an inspector from a different region showing up with an otter load having booked the beaver. Its a good one.
But the operation would have to be setup to get the manager or owner into the mix, ie dealing with an upset customer and instructing the pilot to take the beaver. If it was just the pilot doing it because the company has fostered a culture of flying overloaded the root cause will not come to light.
Im no lawyer, at least not more than I have to be to try and intrepret the CARS, but I dont think entrapment applies in Canada.
I have a buddy who was setup in a sting by Fish and Wildlife, it got to the point where they were engouraging him to commit more offences even buying the gas and beer. He was not ablt to use entrapment as a defence. F&W do have more power than most law enforcentent agencies.
Or what about an undercover cop posing as a hooker, entrapment? no because you were gonna pick up a hooker anyway.
As for the idea of an inspector from a different region showing up with an otter load having booked the beaver. Its a good one.
But the operation would have to be setup to get the manager or owner into the mix, ie dealing with an upset customer and instructing the pilot to take the beaver. If it was just the pilot doing it because the company has fostered a culture of flying overloaded the root cause will not come to light.
Edo, TC use to do that stuff back in the 70's and 80's. Haven't heard much about any sort of sting operations for many years. The only problem was the guys they sent were usually about as obvious as sending two white cops into an all black bar. They would show up dressed like fishermen and of course start asking questions about the operation, the aircraft, loads etc. while American fishermen only asked about how and where the fish were biting.
They also used to sit down the road or on other docks, rock points etc. and take pictures of the planes coming and going. They would then come and check the journey log books to make sure the entries were in it and the times jibed etc. I used to try and explain to them what a waste of time it was and that we would never omit entries in the log book because the last column stated, miles flown and we got paid by the mile. They would just look at you with the old yea right, look on their face. Of course I am not saying that all the other info in the column was exactly correct but we never omitted any.
You are correct in the fact that there are no laws against entrapment in Canada!!
They also used to sit down the road or on other docks, rock points etc. and take pictures of the planes coming and going. They would then come and check the journey log books to make sure the entries were in it and the times jibed etc. I used to try and explain to them what a waste of time it was and that we would never omit entries in the log book because the last column stated, miles flown and we got paid by the mile. They would just look at you with the old yea right, look on their face. Of course I am not saying that all the other info in the column was exactly correct but we never omitted any.
You are correct in the fact that there are no laws against entrapment in Canada!!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
