Toronto Hospital 70% Unvaccinated

[Vaticinator]

The master of the straw man, at it again!

Accepting that we will all die at some point is not "giving away" other people's lives. Not accepting that is childish. And no one is preventing anyone from getting vaccinated. You say vaccines are highly effective at preventing serious outcomes, including death. If you believe that, and are vaccinated, what are you worried about?

[Just another canuck]

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[Big Pistons Forever]

Accepting that we will all die at some point is not "giving away" other people's lives. Not accepting that is childish. And no one is preventing anyone from getting vaccinated. You say vaccines are highly effective at preventing serious outcomes, including death. If you believe that, and are vaccinated, what are you worried about?

Given the FACT that unvaccinated people with COVID represent about 9 % of the population but between 75 and 90 % of the people in ICU’s, I worry that if I have a stroke or car accident there may not be a bed because people like you made a choice to not protect themselves from getting a bad enough COVID infection they end up in the ICU.

That protection simply involves getting jabbed with a free vaccine approved by the Health Authorities of over 80 countries and for which reliable data on efficacy and side effects is available based on the over 1 Billion people who have had the vaccine

Choices have consequences, not only to you but to fellow Canadians.

[DanWEC]

Given the FACT that unvaccinated people with COVID represent about 9 % of the population but between 75 and 90 % of the people in ICU’s, I worry that if I have a stroke or car accident there may not be a bed because people like you made a choice to not protect themselves from getting a bad enough COVID infection they end up in the ICU.

FYI those figures aren't accurate. The only reliable stats aren't from newspapers or articles but straight from the Ontario Health websites.
This week:
Unvaccinated % of population is 22.4%
Unvaccinated % of ICUs are 48%

Your point definitely has merit, but just letting you know that those figures aren't solid if you're relying on them. At least in Ontario. ( I recall you may be out west however, I haven't looked there.)

Personally, I'm not an anti-vaxxer in the slightest. I have a vested interest in mRNA vaccine technology, and was very optimistic when the rollout began. However, I became more and more disillusioned and increasingly skeptical of it's advertised efficacy as the last year trudged along, here we are still in the thick of the same underserved system. The mortality rate seems to have mirrored the changing virulence of the various strains up and down rather than totally quashed by what the protection of the vaccines had promised. Are they effective? Yes, have they completely changed the outcome and timeframe of the pandemic as promised by the CEO's? Of that I have serious reservations.


[https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/d ... ab=summary]
[https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations]

[Just another canuck]

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[Hot Wings]

Nobody dies of old age anymore and most of what you are saying has been debunked left and right.

Yes! You are some sort of a science denier. Basically feeling threatened by something you don’t gasp or understand. Show me your PhD in Virology if I’m wrong.
Me I don’t understand either all the exact science behind it but I can gasp the problem and see that vaccination’s recommendation is the best solution. Nobody will need to force my hand getting it and all the required shots afterwards.

Back in the middle age when people felt threatened by something they would not gasp or understand (Sciences) They would simply invoke Witchcraft and burn at stake the “Problem”
Somehow we managed to evolve past that but still, they will always be those who will have it “all figured out” and think they know better.

Science denier, eh. I’ve made this point once, but I’ll try again. Questioning science is science. Accepting it as absolute is not. Dr. Malone is a virologist and immunologist and he does not agree with you. He is also the recognized as the creator of mRNA technology. Of course, I haven’t listened to or read his every word, but when someone with that background is cast into the shadows, it certainly puts up some red flags for me. He also has a lot of support from the scientific community, but those are not the people who come up on your google search, twitter feed or nightly newscast. Why not? Must be that pesky misinformation I suppose. Or perhaps their opinion just doesn’t fit the narrative. The simplest explanation is often the right one.

I’ve also made the point about your remark about the middle ages. What you are failing to realize is you are the one with the pitchfork and torch. I and the rest of the minority are being tied to the stake. You only choose to accept what you want to be true and ignore any “science” from the other side because it makes you scared or uncomfortable. It’s a normal response. The masses thought the world was flat, it was the minority that questioned the science.

Here is some information to think about… a good friend of mine got vaxxed about 8 months ago. Since then, her menstrual cycle changed completely. Where, like most women, she could set her clock by it, since the vaccine she now bleeds through her underwear in less than an hour. There are thousands of cases like this. So my question is what is it doing to the reproductive system of young women and prepubescent girls who have yet to reach that age. Will it cause life long issues and/or infertility? We won’t know for years and then we’ll just call them unlucky I guess. They can always adopt. There are news articles coming out now saying, “Well yes, the vax can cause some issues down there, but you should still get it.” I’m paraphrasing of course. What’s it doing to men? My kids may not want their own children, but if they do when they reach that age, I don’t want to be responsible for administering them with the vaccine that did it when they were at little risk of the disease it was meant for.

I don’t have anything against anyone who wants the vaccine. I believe you should weigh the risks and get it if you feel it’s the best choice for you and your children if you have any. But don’t tell me the science is unequivocally sound on this vaccine. It’s not. Anyone who says it is is a liar, scientists included. Dr. Fauci and Dr. Tam and the rest of them can not be trusted. They have an agenda. A lie will spread around the whole world while the truth is still putting its boots on.

No, no, no. You don't get to give away other people's lives.

Knock it off. Give away people’s lives? I was simply stating that people, eventually, die. There are vast array of diseases or accidents that are far more likely to get me than COVID. And despite what most people would like, we have far less control over this than we think.

The master of the straw man, at it again!

Accepting that we will all die at some point is not "giving away" other people's lives. Not accepting that is childish. And no one is preventing anyone from getting vaccinated. You say vaccines are highly effective at preventing serious outcomes, including death. If you believe that, and are vaccinated, what are you worried about?

Exactly. And thank you.

So basically you’re asking people to not make sweeping generalizations about those who are sceptical of vaccines, yet do exactly that about people who oppose your opinion. Got it. This’ll go far.

[Posthumane]

Below the age of 70, it is no more dangerous than the flu and in younger people, actually has less of a mortality rate.

In the two years leading up to the start of covid (2018-2019) in Canada there were 400-600 deaths from influenza (about 1200 from all acute respiratory infections) in the 60-69 age group compared with 3200 in the two years of covid. In the 50-59 age group it was 200-300 from influenza (~600 from all acute respiratory infections) vs 1300 for two years of covid. In the 40-49 age group it was 70-100 (<200 for all acute respiratory infections) vs 500 from covid. For 30-39 age range it's <50 vs <200, and for 20-29 it's <20 vs 94. The gap gets smaller the younger you go but for all adults the mortality risk associated with covid is several times higher than the mortality risk associated with influenza, and greater than the risk of all other causes of acute respiratory illness (bacterial, fungal pneumonia, etc.) combined. Once you get down into pediatric ages the mortality risk is similar to the mortality risk of all other acute respiratory illnesses.

Questioning science is science. Accepting it as absolute is not.

Using empirical data or observations to show that a commonly accepted fact is wrong is definitely science. Simply throwing out other people's observations with statements like "I’m sceptical of many of these “studies” as they are in large part, an arm of the largest propaganda machine to ever be aimed at the human race" is definitely not science, and I think science denial is an apt description. Simply being skeptical of a study or a piece of information is not enough, you have to actually act on that skepticism and test an alternate hypothesis in order to disprove something.

I could argue that the large percentage of “deaths due to COVID” were not COVID deaths at all, but the result of an unhealthy person with a less than average immune system. The 400 pound diabetic with heart disease did not die because of COVID. They died because of the lifestyle they lived. The 70 + year old did not die because of COVID. They died because they are frail and their immune system could not handle the disease, just as they would have performed poorly against the flu, pneumonia or a bad infection.

You could argue that, but then you need to come up with an explanation of why those same vulnerable people are dying at a significantly higher rate than they were in previous years. Prior to the spread of the omicron variant the mortality rate amongst confirmed cases was 2-3x the all cause mortality rate of a comparable cross section of the population, so even if every death of a covid-positive person was counted as a covid death it would only account for a fraction of them.

[Vaticinator]

Given the FACT that unvaccinated people with COVID represent about 9 % of the population but between 75 and 90 % of the people in ICU’s, I worry that if I have a stroke or car accident there may not be a bed because people like you made a choice to not protect themselves from getting a bad enough COVID infection they end up in the ICU.

Is winding up in the ICU a normal thing for you to worry about in your day to day?

Your worries seem to be based on either bad, or no data. For starters, I'm fully vaccinated and I'll wager I take better care of my health than most of the people who believe they have a right to tell me what to do with my health choices. So you can scratch me completely off the list of your worries. Furthermore, do you have any reliable, non-anecdotal data from any province that shows that their ICUs are filled? This excuse of "clogged" ICUs is continuously bandied about, yet no one has actually produced any provincial stats from anywhere that indicates that they are at capacity. Maybe instead of hurling accusations on anonymous websites you should be writing your MP to ask for more ICU beds if you're really that concerned. But I'm guessing you're actually not.

My guess is that most people who share your level of fear and concern (which you are entitled to) are actually just annoyed that not everyone is as afraid as you, and thus, you feel they aren't taking it as seriously as you are. Why else would you take issue with someone such as myself who has fully complied every step of the way through the last two years? The pandemic is about as bad as it has ever been, but as you pointed out the unvaccinated represent 9% of the population (your figure, not mine). You really believe that 9% of the population, who are largely not allowed to interact with most of society now, are responsible for the state things are in? Or is it possible that all of our collective countermeasures are not as effective as we previously thought? To clarify, I'm not strictly referring to vaccines here, but also masking, "social" distancing, double masking, vaccine passports, curfews, lockdowns, etc. Now before you and the rest get your panties in a bunch, I'm not suggesting that some of those things are not without their merits or that we shouldn't do some of these things. But why do you people insist on calling me an anti vaxxer for simply suggesting these things might not work as well as we're being lead to believe?

You can choose to live your life fearful and angry at your fellow man for not being as fearful as you, or you can choose to do the very best you can to improve your own chances at staying healthy. I know, you all get upset when I raise the spectre of personal responsibility for your own health. It's much easier to shift that responsibility onto someone else. But the reality is that YOU can do many, many times more to protect YOURSELF than any choice any stranger makes could possibly do for you. YOU can get the vaccine. YOU can reduce any comorbidities that are within your power to affect, of which there are many. If it helps ease your mind, pre-print figures are now out that indicate your risk of ending up in an ICU due to omicron are 0.26%. You're probably going to be just fine. Just like you probably have been this whole time.

[Aviatard]

Is winding up in the ICU a normal thing for you to worry about in your day to day?

Is making an account on here for the sole purpose of posting about vaccines or covid, and nothing else, a normal thing? That's 3 posts per day for a solid month and a half.

[Just another canuck]

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[Just another canuck]

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[photofly]

One 25 year old with children is worth an infinite amount of 80+ year old folks. Most old folks will agree.

No 80 year-old that I know - not a single one.

['97 Tercel]

Not even uncle Jimmy or grandma Myrtle? That's not what they said

[Posthumane]

These numbers seem quite negligible to me. Those old folks were gonna die. Sorry. Old folks die. Scale down and let’s be conservative and say 1000 extra people died. Let’s be crazy and say 10,000 died. Are you insane? Are you on drugs? Are you delusional? Are we really arguing over the lockdown and economic disparity of a country the size of Canada over a few thousand deaths? Opioid deaths are up as much as 250% in some cities. Suicides… 25% of people aged 16-24 are seriously contemplating suicide. And the number of people following through has gone up is insane. One 25 year old with children is worth an infinite amount of 80+ year old folks. Most old folks will agree.

You may be arguing about lockdowns and economic disparity with someone, real or imagined, whereas I'm just pointing out the false equivalencies you're making. Saying Covid and Influenza have the same mortality rate is like saying a Turbine Otter and an Airbus A320 travel at the same speed. A 3-4x difference is hardly noticeable in the grand scheme of things, right? Although I do find it interesting that you consider 10000 deaths to be negligible and then get outraged over the number of overdose deaths (about 6000/a) or the number of suicide deaths (4000/a with no significant increase in 2020 compared to previous years). It's a bit inconsistent. Also an interesting tidbid that the rate of suicide per capita is higher in 80+ year olds than any age group under 40.

Sorry. I don’t believe it. Too many instances of authorities toe-tagging deaths with COVID. Died in a car accident? Positive for COVID? Death by COVID. This is factual. Many authorities have been caught. Our own in Ontario have been caught for manipulating hospital data. So why do you continue to believe them as gospel? Why do you continue to trust your government as your lord and saviour as if they give AF about you? They don’t.

What is it that you think the government is telling me, that I should either believe or not believe? I have the capability to crunch the numbers myself and have done so. If you take a group of 800000 people (the number of people who tested positive in the first year) and you call every single death in that group a covid death, whether its from a car accident or disease or anything else, you would end up with around 6000 deaths. Since the actual number of recorded deaths in that group of 800k was about 20000, there's an additional 14k deaths that had to come from somewhere, so if you're going to say they aren't caused by covid then you have to come up with an alternate explanation.

[Aviatard]

Those old folks were gonna die. Sorry. Old folks die.
[…]
One 25 year old with children is worth an infinite amount of 80+ year old folks. Most old folks will agree.

The anti-vaxxer agenda: @#$! you old folks. Everyone agrees with me. I’m gonna pursue my hobbies. Statistics are wrong and even though you just showed me how I’m wrong I don’t believe it.

It’s hard to imagine being more despicable but I think you could do it if you try.

[photofly]

Those old folks were gonna die. Sorry. Old folks die.
[…]
One 25 year old with children is worth an infinite amount of 80+ year old folks. Most old folks will agree.

The anti-vaxxer agenda: @#$! you old folks. Everyone agrees with me. I’m gonna pursue my hobbies. Statistics are wrong and even though you just showed me how I’m wrong I don’t believe it.

It’s hard to imagine being more despicable but I think you could do it if you try.

I think it's more a case of him self-identifying with being 25 with children, and unable to imagine himself at 80. I doubt he knows many elderly people, either. That's something time will remedy.

[Just another canuck]

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[Just another canuck]

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[photofly]

I have plenty of elderly friends. Plenty.

Oh good. It's a funny way to talk about them, if they are your friends - but perhaps you and I understand that word differently. Either way, go and look them in the eye -- your grandparents in particular - and read them your posts here. Especially the bits about how the elderly are willing to and should sacrifice themselves for you. Report back here when you're done.

[Just another canuck]

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[TG]

I can picture it now… 1939 Germany. Aviatard is a good German soldier. His superiors tell him the science is sound. I’m his good German neighbour who does not agree and oh-no… I’m on a train with a bunch of good Jewish folks. Okay… a little dramatic, yes, but I find it alarming that you do not question anything you hear from your God… the Liberal government, CBC, CTV and Global News. The U.S. is worse. Good grief.

Says the guy with totally despicable view on the elderly.


And if nobody mentioned anything about vaccination and fertility it's because it's just.....Another conspiracy theory!
I picked that link for you:
https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2211
Basically

Most people who report a change to their period after vaccination find that it returns to normal the following cycle and, importantly, there is no evidence that covid-19 vaccination adversely affects fertility. In clinical trials, unintended pregnancies occurred at similar rates in vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.2 In assisted reproduction clinics, fertility measures and pregnancy rates are similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.3456
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Although reported changes to the menstrual cycle after vaccination are short lived, robust research into this possible adverse reaction remains critical to the overall success of the vaccination programme. Vaccine hesitancy among young women is largely driven by false claims that covid-19 vaccines could harm their chances of future pregnancy.13 Failing to thoroughly investigate reports of menstrual changes after vaccination is likely to fuel these fears. If a link between vaccination and menstrual changes is confirmed, this information will allow people to plan for potentially altered cycles. Clear and trusted information is particularly important for those who rely on being able to predict their menstrual cycles to either achieve or avoid pregnancy.

You should have a look into "Pregnancy complications while having Covid" instead.

[Aviatard]

Anti-vaxxers when you disagree with them:

You’re stupid and also a Nazi. I am going to make up a bunch of stuff and attribute it to you. Let me just use a false equivalency and some straw man arguments to show you how dumb you are. And what about my good friend’s single anecdotal observation that proves vaccines don’t work at all? You can’t refute that. Oh also and @#$! you old people. I’m worth an infinite amount of you.

Brilliant.

[photofly]

My grandparents are fine. They think the lockdowns and mandates are ridiculous. Remember, they and other in their age group lived through real hardships.

They might well be fine, and I’m sure they did live through real hardships. That still doesn’t mean they’re aching to sacrifice their lives for you.

Show your elderly friends these comments and see what they say:

One 25 year old with children is worth an infinite amount of 80+ year old folks. Most old folks will agree.

Actually I don’t think you believe that; I think it’s a set of big words to show everyone how bold and brave you are on this topic, but I don’t think you really thought it through. But it is what you wrote.

[Vaticinator]

The anti-vaxxer agenda: @#$! you old folks. Everyone agrees with me. I’m gonna pursue my hobbies. Statistics are wrong and even though you just showed me how I’m wrong I don’t believe it.

It’s hard to imagine being more despicable but I think you could do it if you try.

Speaking of despicable, that's an amazing attempt at demonizing a person by dishonestly mischaracterizing their point.

There are some facts you should be aware of, if you can handle them without being triggered. First, the average age of covid death mirrors the average life expectancy in at least Canada, the US and the UK. This might have to do with the fact that it has been proven that the biomarkers associated with ageing lead to worse outcomes when infected with covid. But fear not, people over the age of 70 in this country are greater than 95% vaccinated and the majority of those are boosted. So they are completely safe, right? The vaccines are highly effective, right? Your faith must be as strong as the vaccines' effectiveness, otherwise you wouldn't be here saying all these nasty things about others, right?

[photofly]

fear not, people over the age of 70 in this country are greater than 95% vaccinated and the majority of those are boosted. So they are completely safe, right?

Off you go again with the “if it’s not everything, it must be nothing” line.

Don’t you see how silly that is?