Onex buying Sunwing ?

[Latitude]

And there lies the biggest problem with Canadian aviation in terms of pilots pay. Supposedly the highest paying company is also one of the lowest paying! There is no justification for 4 long years of flat pay.

Call it what it is; purely a training bond, it's as simple as that.

Makes no sense. You don't pay a training bond unless you leave. If you earn low wages for 4 years, it's more like they make you pay your training, sort of.

[Loon-A-Tic]

And there lies the biggest problem with Canadian aviation in terms of pilots pay. Supposedly the highest paying company is also one of the lowest paying! There is no justification for 4 long years of flat pay.

Call it what it is; purely a training bond, it's as simple as that.

Makes no sense. You don't pay a training bond unless you leave. If you earn low wages for 4 years, it's more like they make you pay your training, sort of.

Not completely true, you only pay the bond IF you leave early. Otherwise is reduced over the term of the bond, however long that my be. So in the case of BIG RED the term of the bond is 4 years.

[cloak]

The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.

A training bond is an agreement between a pilot and a company to exchange training for loyalty. It needs to be paid in case the pilot leaves the said company before the expiry of the time period. If the pilot continues to work there, he or she will receive fair compensation with no financial burden.

The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.

[Latitude]

Call it what it is; purely a training bond, it's as simple as that.

Makes no sense. You don't pay a training bond unless you leave. If you earn low wages for 4 years, it's more like they make you pay your training, sort of.

Not completely true, you only pay the bond IF you leave early. Otherwise is reduced over the term of the bond, however long that my be. So in the case of BIG RED the term of the bond is 4 years.

If they pay you less, it's a pay-your-training type of thing. Nothing to do with a training bond which doesnt impact your pay or other in any way unless you leave the company.

[digits_]

The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.
[...]
The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.

So we should all join AC for the free typerating and to have fun flying the big planes for a month, and then leave?

[Hangry]

The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.

A training bond is an agreement between a pilot and a company to exchange training for loyalty. It needs to be paid in case the pilot leaves the said company before the expiry of the time period. If the pilot continues to work there, he or she will receive fair compensation with no financial burden.

The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.

But WJ paying a Swoop skipper less than 100 grand a year is helping Canadian aviation.

[elite]

If that’s what they pay them, not it doesn’t. And neither is the 4 year long flat pay at the flag carrier. Plus it used to be 2 years which was increased in the last contract. Plus one doesn’t justify the other. And yes it is NOT the equivalent of the training bond.

[cloak]

The 4 year long flat pay at Air Canada is anything but a training bond. And there is no justification for it.

A training bond is an agreement between a pilot and a company to exchange training for loyalty. It needs to be paid in case the pilot leaves the said company before the expiry of the time period. If the pilot continues to work there, he or she will receive fair compensation with no financial burden.

The Air Canada 4 year flat pay on the other hand, does put financial burden on the pilot while he or she IS working at Air Canada. The burden is in spite of loyalty of the pilot. It also erodes the potential of piloting profession in Canada in general.

But WJ paying a Swoop skipper less than 100 grand a year is helping Canadian aviation.

I appreciate you trying to make a point by this comparison, however it is not the same.

Notwithstanding the fact that it is actually over 120, and in addition to what's already been said, there is a big difference:

The Swoop conditions were forced by arbitration, whereas the Air Canada 4 long years of flat pay were negotiated and ratified by its pilots!!

One lesson that hopefully has been learnt is that an "all or nothing" approach sometimes does land one closer to nothing! It is better to negotiate.

[ALPApolicy]

...One lesson that hopefully has been learnt is that an "all or nothing" approach sometimes does land one closer to nothing! It is better to negotiate.

I wonder if that applies to seniority list mergers?

[cloak]

...One lesson that hopefully has been learnt is that an "all or nothing" approach sometimes does land one closer to nothing! It is better to negotiate.

I wonder if that applies to seniority list mergers?

Absolutely, a negotiated settlement, even in parts, would be better because it has known elements on which members can vote.

For instance Encore MEC has been very good in negotiating and even getting others to negotiate for them, be it in the one sided PTA1, be it pandemic era lay-off top up pay for Encore pilots only, they have represented their members well. They can and should continue to do that for a new PTA or whatever else they can. That is fine.

It is time that WS/WO MEC also negotiates for its own members, to do them no harm and represent all of them. That’s all.

[rudder]

Absolutely, a negotiated settlement, even in parts, would be better because it has known elements on which members can vote.

For instance Encore MEC has been very good in negotiating and even getting others to negotiate for them, be it in the one sided PTA1, be it pandemic era lay-off top up pay for Encore pilots only, they have represented their members well. They can and should continue to do that for a new PTA or whatever else they can. That is fine.

It is time that WS/WO MEC also negotiates for its own members, to do them no harm and represent all of them. That’s all.

Per ALPA Merger Policy, there is no membership ratification of an ISL.

[cloak]

Well, strictly speaking WestJet MEC has not really been following ALPA policies! But if that is the case and indeed their intention, they had better get a clear mandate from their members before negotiations and stick to it, not what someone promised another group.

[ALPApolicy]

...One lesson that hopefully has been learnt is that an "all or nothing" approach sometimes does land one closer to nothing! It is better to negotiate.

I wonder if that applies to seniority list mergers?

Absolutely, a negotiated settlement, even in parts, would be better because it has known elements on which members can vote.

For instance Encore MEC has been very good in negotiating and even getting others to negotiate for them, be it in the one sided PTA1, be it pandemic era lay-off top up pay for Encore pilots only, they have represented their members well. They can and should continue to do that for a new PTA or whatever else they can. That is fine.

It is time that WS/WO MEC also negotiates for its own members, to do them no harm and represent all of them. That’s all.

I think, from what I have heard from guys/gals who flowed from Encore and from guys/gals who were laid off and went there last summer, that the Encore MEC is the MEC that we should have had since we certified.

I was also harsh on previous Grievance Chair KN. I am not close to the inner functionings of the MEC so when DC was involved in that imbroglio with the NC, I assumed KN had done something wrong.

I don't know where KN is in the WJ/Encore world but we need him back.

[cloak]

I think, from what I have heard from guys/gals who flowed from Encore and from guys/gals who were laid off and went there last summer, that the Encore MEC is the MEC that we should have had since we certified….

Well, how about each group have their representatives negotiate for improvements with their respective company. What Encore negotiates and gets is between them and their company, not WJ MEC who are duty bound for fair representation of their own members. Also, they need to follow ALPA policies more closely, seek advice from them, seek a clear mandate from the membership and negotiate fiercely, for their own members. And when opportunities present themselves for any gains, take them and try to build on them. All or nothing is not negotiation!

[ALPApolicy]

Well, how about each group have their representatives negotiate for improvements with their respective company. What Encore negotiates and gets is between them and their company, not WJ MEC who are duty bound for fair representation of their own members. Also, they need to follow ALPA policies more closely, seek advice from them, seek a clear mandate from the membership and negotiate fiercely, for their own members. And when opportunities present themselves for any gains, take them and try to build on them. All or nothing is not negotiation!

Beautifully expressed.