Snowbird accident 😢

[photofly]

Try 180 turn on the edge of a stall after an engine power loss at low altitude?……little common sense.

I’m afraid if there are circumstances where you don’t want to glide straight ahead, then being able to achieve that manoeuvre will maximize your turn in limited altitude. You may not be comfortable with your ability to achieve that without losing control of your airplane; that’s ok. Nobody will force you into it.

[pelmet]

Try 180 turn on the edge of a stall after an engine power loss at low altitude?……little common sense.

I’m afraid if there are circumstances where you don’t want to glide straight ahead, then being able to achieve that manoeuvre will maximize your turn in limited altitude. You may not be comfortable with your ability to achieve that without losing control of your airplane; that’s ok. Nobody will force you into it.

You are correct. I am not confident in my ability to do so on the edge of a stall. If it were the only option available……then no choice.

Otherwise, I remind myself that over-confidence is a leading underlying cause of aircraft fatalities.

[photofly]

Otherwise, I remind myself that over-confidence is a leading underlying cause of aircraft fatalities.

I haven’t seen that cited on any accident investigations ..

You are correct. I am not confident in my ability to do so on the edge of a stall. If it were the only option available……then no choice.

Isn’t that exactly the time you’d be wishing you practiced it, and were a bit more confident about it?

Seems counterintuitive to scare yourself into not being confident about something by not preparing for it, so thst you only do it when you have no choice.

[pelmet]

Otherwise, I remind myself that over-confidence is a leading underlying cause of aircraft fatalities.

I haven’t seen that cited on any accident investigations.

Interesting. FYI from the FAA......

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/resea ... 201503.pdf

"In his 2001 book, The Killing Zone, Paul Craig presented
early evidence that GA pilot fatalities might relate nonlinearly
to TFH(Total Flight Hours). Craig showed that fatalities occur most frequently at
a middle range of TFH (≈50-350), and hypothesized that this
band of time may be one in which pilots are at greatest risk due to
overconfidence at having mastered flying the aircraft, combined
with lack of actual experience and skill in dealing with rare, challenging events."

You are correct. I am not confident in my ability to do so on the edge of a stall. If it were the only option available……then no choice.

Isn’t that exactly the time you’d be wishing you practiced it, and were a bit more confident about it?

Seems counterintuitive to scare yourself into not being confident about something by not preparing for it, so thst you only do it when you have no choice.
[/quote]


I thought I might include a steep turn accident by a crew that did plenty of practice.....

https://fairchildhospitalshooting.com/w ... ressed.pdf

"Overconfidence is a factor when the individual overvalues or overestimates personal
capability, the capability of others or the capability of aircraft/vehicles or equipment and this
creates an unsafe situation.
During simulator training, the MP taught stall warnings were an “anomaly.” The
warnings were considered inaccurate and transitory due to aggressive aerial demonstration
maneuvers. The MP “was not concerned” about stalling in the profile. The MP also believed
these warnings would cease at completion of the turns and not adversely affect the aircraft. (Tab
V-205, V-207) He flew numerous aerial demonstrations in the aircraft with the stall warnings
active and without incident. (Tabs V-55, V-68, V-71, V-97, V-188, V-277, EE-9 through EE12)
The MP’s overconfidence in both his abilities and the C-17 capabilities led to the stall."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwVxKsefa0

Personally, I suggest people take my advice.

[photofly]

Otherwise, I remind myself that over-confidence is a leading underlying cause of aircraft fatalities.

I haven’t seen that cited on any accident investigations.

Interesting. FYI from the FAA......

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/resea ... 201503.pdf

"In his 2001 book, The Killing Zone, Paul Craig presented
early evidence that GA pilot fatalities might relate nonlinearly
to TFH(Total Flight Hours). Craig showed that fatalities occur most frequently at
a middle range of TFH (≈50-350), and hypothesized that this
band of time may be one in which pilots are at greatest risk due to
overconfidence at having mastered flying the aircraft, combined
with lack of actual experience and skill in dealing with rare, challenging events."

right.. but leading cause?

You are correct. I am not confident in my ability to do so on the edge of a stall. If it were the only option available……then no choice.

Isn’t that exactly the time you’d be wishing you practiced it, and were a bit more confident about it?

Seems counterintuitive to scare yourself into not being confident about something by not preparing for it, so thst you only do it when you have no choice.
[/quote]


I thought I might include a steep turn accident by a crew that did plenty of practice.....

https://fairchildhospitalshooting.com/w ... ressed.pdf

"Overconfidence is a factor when the individual overvalues or overestimates personal
capability, the capability of others or the capability of aircraft/vehicles or equipment and this
creates an unsafe situation.
During simulator training, the MP taught stall warnings were an “anomaly.” The
warnings were considered inaccurate and transitory due to aggressive aerial demonstration
maneuvers. The MP “was not concerned” about stalling in the profile. The MP also believed
these warnings would cease at completion of the turns and not adversely affect the aircraft. (Tab
V-205, V-207) He flew numerous aerial demonstrations in the aircraft with the stall warnings
active and without incident. (Tabs V-55, V-68, V-71, V-97, V-188, V-277, EE-9 through EE12)
The MP’s overconfidence in both his abilities and the C-17 capabilities led to the stall."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjwVxKsefa0

Personally, I suggest people take my advice.
[/quote]
Nobody is suggesting the stall warning horn is an anomaly, nor not to be concerned about stalls. Quite the opposite in fact. Could you make the parallel you’re trying to draw a little clearer, perhaps?

[pelmet]

I don’t think it gets any clearer than in that video in my previous post about the risks of even very, very current pilots flying on the edge of a stall.


I also suggest you read The Killing Zone for more info on overconfidence.

[pelmet]

Remember,

This guy is trying to turn on the edge of a stall. He has a lot more experience and recency in practicing than you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S_NM--evM

Keep some extra margin. It will save you from a slight error on input or a wind gust.

[photofly]

Keep some extra margin. It will save you from a slight error on input or a wind gust.

I quite agree one needs a margin, just like one does when practicing slow flight.

[photofly]

@Pelmet: could you start a thread for accidents occurring after an EFATO event?

Bearing in mind this thread, it would be good to collate such reports as exist.

[goldeneagle]

Remember,

This guy is trying to turn on the edge of a stall. He has a lot more experience and recency in practicing than you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S_NM--evM

Keep some extra margin. It will save you from a slight error on input or a wind gust.

Actually no, that is a well known incident, and the person driving was well known for being a 'cowboy' and flying the aircraft outside of it's safe envelope.

Contrast that to this one, a competent pilot doing low level aerobatics in a twin engine airplane, with both feathered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQWXMLtR-LA

but I agree, if you aren't capable of doing a 180, then maybe you shouldn't be trying it. And you certainly shouldn't be trying some of the things in this video, ie, ie a 16 point roll at low level with both engines feathered. Leave that to the experts that actually know the limits of their abilities and the limits of the airplane abilities.

[pelmet]

@Pelmet: could you start a thread for accidents occurring after an EFATO event?

Bearing in mind this thread, it would be good to collate such reports as exist.

If you want such a thread, then start one.

[pelmet]

Remember,

This guy is trying to turn on the edge of a stall. He has a lot more experience and recency in practicing than you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S_NM--evM

Keep some extra margin. It will save you from a slight error on input or a wind gust.

Actually no, that is a well known incident, and the person driving was well known for being a 'cowboy' and flying the aircraft outside of it's safe envelope.

I believe he was intentionally flying very close to the stall. Whether he was a cowboy or not, it shows what can happen.

I suggest avoiding such kind of flying if doing an emergency 180 return to the airport.

Try best glide speed, if you decide to do so.


An initial action is to pitch down to that attitude.....

"C- GFWA, a privately registered Piper PA 24-260 (Comanche), following the annual maintenance
inspection, was conducting circuits at Vancouver/Boundary Bay (CZBB), BC, with only the pilot on
board. Prior to turning base after a number of circuits, the pilot switched from the left main fuel tank
to the right main fuel tank. After completing the touch and go, the pilot retracted the gear at 200
feet above ground level (AGL) and at 300 feet AGL, the engine (Avco Lycoming IO-540-D4A5)
stopped producing power. The pilot set the aircraft attitude for best glide, turned to the left, and
landed on Apron 3 with the gear up. The aircraft came to a stop. There were no injuries. Damage
to the aircraft was limited to propeller tips and some damage to the underside.
The aircraft was lifted, the gear was dropped, and it was towed to its hangar. It will be inspected for
any other damage and a plan made for repair."

[photofly]

@Pelmet: could you start a thread for accidents occurring after an EFATO event?

Bearing in mind this thread, it would be good to collate such reports as exist.

If you want such a thread, then start one.

Here’s one to get you started: a guy who lost control trying to turn back:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213191

[rookiepilot]

@Pelmet: could you start a thread for accidents occurring after an EFATO event?

Bearing in mind this thread, it would be good to collate such reports as exist.

If you want such a thread, then start one.

Here’s one to get you started: a guy who lost control trying to turn back:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213191

Runway 15 YKZ has to be one of the worst runways I know of anywhere for poor forced landing options after departure. FWIW.

[photofly]

Here's another one - same airport, same runway. Pilot elected to turn left this time, and stalled:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/74494

[AirFrame]

This guy is trying to turn on the edge of a stall. He has a lot more experience and recency in practicing than you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S_NM--evM

Keep some extra margin. It will save you from a slight error on input or a wind gust.

Remember, that guy also was making 60+ degree banked turns, and trying to show off. At best people here have recommended no more than 45 degrees of bank, and maintaining a margin above stall speed.

[pelmet]

This guy is trying to turn on the edge of a stall. He has a lot more experience and recency in practicing than you.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S_NM--evM

Keep some extra margin. It will save you from a slight error on input or a wind gust.

Remember, that guy also was making 60+ degree banked turns, and trying to show off. At best people here have recommended no more than 45 degrees of bank, and maintaining a margin above stall speed.

Just to clarify. I have been saying that a 180 degree turnback should be an option. I recommended a 45 degree bank turn at best glide speed in order to have a margin above stall speed. This is in contrast to someone else recommending that it be done on the edge of a stall in order to maximize performance and that frequent practice will make this a a reasonably safe maneuver. I have posted some links on why the edge of stall turns, even by people regularly practicing them are extremely dangerous. Edge of stall is edge of stall, whether you are trying to show off or not, and whether it is a 45 degree bank or a 60 degree bank. There is no room for error. And errors are inevitable. So are wind shifts at low level.

Since that time we have had two links to YKZ accidents in which a turnaround would probably make sense if there was a complete power loss and altitude was sufficient(not necessarily the case in either one). I am not sure what the point is but it does show the potential hazards of such a maneuver. Obviously, I don't know how the pilots flew their maneuver(and neither one appears to have had a complete power loss), but I suspect that they either did not monitor their airspeed(significantly increases the likelihood of a loss of control) or tried to fly on the edge of a stall during the turnaround(also significantly increases the likelihood of a loss of control) or perhaps did not have sufficient altitude to try such a maneuver.

Try best glide speed(or approximately that speed) and monitor the instruments during the turnaround, if it is done. Suggest only doing it if it was a pre-planned emergency maneuver for that takeoff.

[photofly]

I recommended a 45 degree bank turn at best glide speed in order to have a margin above stall speed. This is in contrast to someone else recommending that it be done on the edge of a stall in order to maximize performance and that frequent practice will make this a a reasonably safe maneuver.

I don't believe that anyone here recommended flying the manoeuvre "on the edge of a stall".

As previously discussed, the wings-level best glide speed is about the right speed for this, since that is the same speed as the stalling speed in a steady descent at 45° bank plus a few knots of margin.

[PilotDAR]

I've always wondered about the eargerness of pilots to discuss a maneuver which contravenes every civil airplane flight manual and approved training procedure I have ever seen....

Why not agree it should not be attempted, so the new pilots reading here learn that, and respect the wisdom of the experienced posters here?

[photofly]

Why not agree it should not be attempted, so the new pilots reading here learn that, and respect the wisdom of the experienced posters here?

Because, very broadly speaking, I don't agree that's what new pilots should learn.

The fact is, there is no power on earth that will stop some pilots from trying to turn back to the relative safety of the airport behind them in the event of an EFATO, regardless of admonishment and stern words from any number of experienced posters here and elsewhere to the contrary, over many decades. The various accident reports here prove that. Words of "don't" from well-intentioned people safely here on the ground will never count for very much when a pilot is suddenly faced with a windshield full of urban area in front of them and the only place remotely flat behind them.

It is impossible that in 2022 any pilot who died in stall-spin scenario without power was unaware of the danger of getting it wrong. Yet they still try it, without training or experience. And get it wrong. I don't think the answer to a manoeuvre that pilots die by executing badly is less training and less discussion.

Rather than leave it as a grey area for experimentation during an emergency, I think it's far far far better that new pilots learn what can and what can't be achieved by them in their airplane, in a suitable training environment, before they're faced with the decision. This discussion serves to inform that.

[PilotDAR]

I think it's far far far better that new pilots learn what can and what can't be achieved by them in their airplane, in a suitable training environment, before they're faced with the decision. This discussion serves to inform that.

That statement I agree with. And it takes the discussion to a different level - a level where it should be, but not really at the "new pilot" skill level...

So, New Pilots: Depending upon how much you have received maneuver and aircraft type specific training, and how you have planned your departure, and where along the departure path you experience an EFATO, and at what airspeed, a turn back might not be a fatal mistake.

One indicator to you that you're approaching this skill level for advanced training will be that you're entirely comfortable performing through to recovery, a poorly co-ordinated stall entry (at a safe altitude, of course) with a 30 degree angle of bank - in that airplane type. The next indicator will be that you really do understand, from having practiced it on type, the glide entry differences after sudden power loss from Vy and slower to Vx. If you are comfortable doing those, you're at the beginning stages of considering options after an EFATO. Otherwise, plan your forced approach more or less ahead, as your basic training, and the airplane flight manual say to do!

[pelmet]

I recommended a 45 degree bank turn at best glide speed in order to have a margin above stall speed. This is in contrast to someone else recommending that it be done on the edge of a stall in order to maximize performance and that frequent practice will make this a a reasonably safe maneuver.

I don't believe that anyone here recommended flying the manoeuvre "on the edge of a stall".

Uh-Huh....

That's the paper which leads me to believe that a 45° bank turn, just above the stalling speed, is optimum.

My preference is to learn the pitch attitude at which the stall warning horn begins to sound, and use the on/off of the stall warning horn as an aural angle of attack indicator, as a guide.

[photofly]

I recommended a 45 degree bank turn at best glide speed in order to have a margin above stall speed. This is in contrast to someone else recommending that it be done on the edge of a stall in order to maximize performance and that frequent practice will make this a a reasonably safe maneuver.

I don't believe that anyone here recommended flying the manoeuvre "on the edge of a stall".

Uh-Huh....

That's the paper which leads me to believe that a 45° bank turn, just above the stalling speed, is optimum.

My preference is to learn the pitch attitude at which the stall warning horn begins to sound, and use the on/off of the stall warning horn as an aural angle of attack indicator, as a guide.

That’s absolutely right. The best theoretical performance is on the edge of a stall, but just like trying maximize endurance by finding the minimum power setting for level flight, any inadvertent variation will lead to diminished performance. Not instant loss of control, death and destruction, as some claim, but definitely a loss of extra altitude that could have been avoided. So in practice, a margin of extra airspeed is advisable. The onset of the stall warning horn, which if operating correctly sounds a few knots above the actual stall onset, provides such a margin in many aircraft. Just like it does when demonstrating level flight at minimum controllable airspeed.

We routinely maintain unstalled level flight with the stall warning horn sounding, intermittently, or continuously if you are skilled, using turns with bank of 30 degrees, as part of a CPL flight test. If the aircraft actually stalls, the exercise and flight test is a fail, so every CPL holder has demonstrated their ability to do this, and for much longer than the 11 or so seconds required to reverse direction.

Per the flight test standards for the CPL aeroplane:

Assessment will be based on the candidate's proficiency to:

…
establish and maintain the aeroplane in slow flight as indicated by intermittent stall warning or aerodynamic buffeting, with an aeroplane configuration appropriate for that speed range;

demonstrate coordinated straight and level flight and level turns in both directions for at least 90 degrees with an angle of bank of 30 degrees in slow flight;

prevent a stall;
…

Actually this manoeuvre is considerably easier than that required in the flight test as without engine power the destabilizing and uncoordinating effects of prop wash are not present. And, of course, there is no requirement to adjust power or maintain level flight. The purpose of rehearsing at a higher altitude the correct pitch attitude for this manoeuvre in a given airframe is to gain confidence that riding the onset of the stall warning horn does provide a margin, again, just like it does in powered “slow flight”.

You’ll also find that the level flight “best glide” airspeed is pretty close to the speed at which the stall warning activates in a 45 degree banked power-off glide.

Speaking for myself when practicing slow flight I’m not looking at the airspeed indicator, but using the stall warning horn and control feel to judge an adequate but not excessive margin above the stall. Likewise while performing a maximum performance course reversal such as I would use if I needed to in an EFATO scenario. I take your point that that isn’t your preferred method, but the result is much the same.

[pelmet]

I don't believe that anyone here recommended flying the manoeuvre "on the edge of a stall".

Uh-Huh....

That's the paper which leads me to believe that a 45° bank turn, just above the stalling speed, is optimum.

My preference is to learn the pitch attitude at which the stall warning horn begins to sound, and use the on/off of the stall warning horn as an aural angle of attack indicator, as a guide.

So in practice, a margin of extra airspeed is advisable. The onset of the stall warning horn, which if operating correctly sounds a few knots above the actual stall onset, provides such a margin in many aircraft. Just like it does when demonstrating level flight at minimum controllable airspeed.

We routinely maintain unstalled level flight with the stall warning horn sounding, intermittently, or continuously if you are skilled, using turns with bank of 30 degrees, as part of a CPL flight test. If the aircraft actually stalls, the exercise and flight test is a fail, so every CPL holder has demonstrated their ability to do this, and for much longer than the 11 or so seconds required to reverse direction.


Speaking for myself when practicing slow flight I’m not looking at the airspeed indicator, but using the stall warning horn and control feel to judge an adequate but not excessive margin above the stall. Likewise while performing a maximum performance course reversal such as I would use if I needed to in an EFATO scenario. I take your point that that isn’t your preferred method, but the result is much the same.

Uh-huh……

Dangerous advice for a trainee maneuvering close to the ground……..Don’t watch your airspeed and try to use the stall warning as a minimum speed indicator.

One Cessna I flew recently had the stall warning very mis-adjusted.

I wonder how well that will all work out on an aircraft you just rented that has a sudden power loss.

Wonder how well it will work on a bumpy day with wind or daytime heating turbulence.

Oh well, I’m sure it could work more often than not for someone practicing it on a regular basis. That will never be the reality for the average pilot who flies once in a while.

[PilotDAR]

Yeah... I'm not going to pick and quote bits and pieces for comment from the foregoing, except this one:

I’m sure it could work more often than not for someone practicing it on a regular basis. That will never be the reality for the average pilot flying once in a while.

That is the most relevant comment on this topic. If a pilot is very skilled, and familiar on that particular airplane, that pilot can accomplish much more with the same margin of safety as the new pilot renter can manage on a "normal" flight.

I am careful to not post about some things I have flown in planes which I would not want to see a new pilot attempt, lest one tries. This discussion is in that category. I reminded myself last spring, while practicing a power off landing in an unfamiliar type, that I did not have "extra" skill on that type, as I still had to feed in some power on final to make it. It was a reminder to me that I must develop and maintain type specific skills.

So, I reiterate, new pilots, don't try the turn back after EFATO. Experienced pilots - maintain your experience before you try to exercise it!