Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

[lenaumade]

Lenaumade, please stop posting your rhetoric. You keep saying the same thing and your english is horrible.

BlueSkies12, Please tell them to stop saying their rhetoric and I'll promise, I'll do the same. And no problem for my English, would you like to go on in French?
And it seems you understood my "rhetoric" pretty well

[Humble]

Selfish....The deal is clearly to get rid of the flatpay for new hire and ease the transition to the jazz guy but in exchange other pilot will have to have a 85 dbm instead of 80. You do not want to do it because you don t have anything to gain out of it. You would not make this permanent gain for new hire because your conditions will not improve....isn't that Selfish ?

It is not going to 85 instead of 80.
It is going to 85 DBM every month rather than surging to 88 in the summer and less in other months.
It is going up 24 hours max per year (996 to 1020).
If you take the average wide body day to be 8 hours then that equates to 3 extra working days per year.
If you take the average wide body day to be 12 hours then that equates to 2 extra working days per year.
And they are paid days.

Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB. Also the 88 "surge" is very limited, it can't be every fleet and every year. The 85 is a major increase in hours worked, and will decreased the amount of jobs required to man the fleet. Big no.

I'm usually a lurker. But I had to pipe up on this. I'm curious what wide body at AC averages 5 hours "Time Away From Base"? Maybe I'm confused what TAFB means. Maybe you're confused. We might all be confused.

[FL030]

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

You must mean the ones so junior they're still at Jazz. Because as a junior AC pilot this MOA does not benefit me.

[RippleRock]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

Who of the MEC or LEC sycophants might you be?

"Screwing the Junior Pilots". How? By protecting them from this nasty dump of an MOU? They will have to live with the consequences far longer that you or I ever will. Or are you really just looking out for yourself at their direct expense. If so, you should be ashamed. But I'll bet you sleep just fine at night. You guys have been screwing the group for years.

One last "hail Mary" before you get pitched in the dumpster of history.

[eurotrash]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

Funny to see how during TA1 and subsequent 10 yrs deal where 4 yrs flat pay was sold as a "win", we didn't negotiate for the unborn when management was trying to shave a few off bucks off pilot pay

Now that there is a pilot supply issue and known pay problem causing recruitment issues, suddenly there is great concern for junior pilots

The pot calling the kettle black

[Alkasultzer]

600 furloughed out of 4200...14 or 15%


What percentage of Jazz pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Air Transat pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Sunwing pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Porter pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Westjet pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Westjet Encore pilots were laid off?

Maybe stop hitting your head against the wall and realize how good most AC pilots have had it.

Senior management have stated that had they known how long Covid was going to last they would have furloughed 3000 pilots.

Does it suck to be furloughed...it sure does. But the epidemic has nothing to do with AC or ACPA.

This did not age well...

They laid off 600 and are now looking for training flexibility so they can catch up

Imagine if they laid off 3000...lol

Well done with the propoganda Lt Dan

[altiplano]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

I think "junior pilots" are smarter than that. They see this is only a brief gain in return for a career of concessions.

They see that we are leaving money behind here. Flat pay will be fixed imminently, it's a priority for this group, it's a necessity for the company, BUT THIS ISN'T THE DEAL TO DO IT

Let's get a good deal, not this POS.

Air Canada needs a deal on this. They'll come back to the table.

Remember the take it or leave it deal for Aeroplan? Smart money got up and walked out - and they had zero leverage - Rovinescu returned with another $125 million and then some.

The Transat deal fell through because of Covid, but remember that one? Shareholders were waffling with PKP, or the other group of investors trying to challenge the deal. AC upped their offer by 50% to get the result they wanted.

This is business. AC management are so used to ACPA just accepting every POS they toss out, and this is one of them, that they don't have to make a good deal. That they force us to quid pro quo contract clause with unknown levels of risk ot blowback.

And we're relying on Jalmer Johnson? This guy reminds me of Biden up there, at some points he was providing non-sequitur answers. He spent more time talking about what he did 40 years ago than this deal.

The AC guns must have a chuckle when they walk in with our negots team:

We got a chair and another pilot who has only ever given the company concessions since their involvement, neither of them could provide anything in their resume of relevance when asked, we got Lionel Hutz heading up our LRD, we got Brandon, I mean Jalmer Johnson...

Is it any wonder that we're getting the losing deal?

20 years of concrssions and counting.

Time to stop the slide. Send this back and get a good deal.

[Ratherbe]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

Over simplification and revisionist history at its finest. The two bargaining situations are not even close to comparable. The only thing that is the same is that the MEC/NC blindsided the membership with a poor deal and the membership doesn’t like it.

-Jimmy

[Fanblade]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

Ratherbe there is no risk of arbitration in this instance. With that said, had this been an open contract situation where we had signed an MOA, when arbitration was a possible outcome, then yes it would be a concern.

I would say that you are right though. We clearly didn’t learn. Your point is exactly why crap like this should never make it to the membership in the first place.

It should also be sending alarm bells and shivers down our spine about entering regular negotiations with ACPA. If they they sign a crappy MOA like this when arbitration is a possible outcome, we are all royally screwed. AGAIN.

Thanks for the reminder Ratherbe

Get RID of ACPA STAT. The only thing this MOA should generate is a reminder of how great a risk ACPA is to your WAWCON.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

[Fanblade]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

Hoffa,

Ratherbe was using the threat of arbitration out of context. So many AC pilots still don’t really understand what happened and why FOS took place.

He is correct though. In Canada, if you sign an MOA and then end up in arbitration (no risk on this MOA) the starting point for the arbitrator is the MOA.

That is exactly what happened with TA1 and the FOS.

Signing an MOA is a BIG deal. If you are in full blown negotiations it could be irreversible in arbitration. Again this doesn’t apply here. There is no risk of arbitration.

Now think about it. Do you really want the MOA signing authority to remain in ACPA’s hands when the risk of arbitration is real come next fall?

Maybe this crap of an MOA was a good thing. Maybe it will push us in a direction that avoids a bullet next year. Remember who pushed this deal. Get them out of office.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

Hoffa,

Ratherbe was using the threat of arbitration out of context. So many AC pilots still don’t really understand what happened and why FOS took place.

He is correct though. In Canada, if you sign an MOA and then end up in arbitration (no risk on this MOA) the starting point for the arbitrator is the MOA.

That is exactly what happened with TA1 and the FOS.

Signing an MOA is a BIG deal. If you are in full blown negotiations it could be irreversible in arbitration. Again this doesn’t apply here. There is no risk of arbitration.

Now think about it. Do you really want the MOA signing authority to remain in ACPA’s hands when the risk of arbitration is real?

Thanks for the clarification. I’ve been at AC for the whole show and well versed in the TA1/NC1/NC2/27+1/strike/lockout/FOS/10yr deal/BW/GW/KV/MM/GR et Al. There is a lot to unpack there including when the corp agreed to proceed in FOS under pre TA1 contract. No no one group is free from errors along that entire time frame. This is nothing like that from a bargaining position, the contract is closed. Hence the comment about over a simplification of the comparison. This is not open bargaining. I think we are trying to say the same thing.

How can you remove the MOA signing authority from the legal bargaining agent? Unless you mean a whole sale change to ALPA. Then I am all for it.

-Jimmy

[negative_g]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

Are you serious dude?

FOS? You realize we are locked in until 2024, right? That goes both ways. We walk away, nothing happens. Well one of two things happen. AC exec have to answer to the board why they can't fly the schedule next summer, or they come back to the table with more moolah.

Stop with the fear and stockholm syndrome. It's getting old.

Also I recall pretty much everyone was fucking furious about this MOA long before P4C said anything about it.

[negative_g]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

I've never seen it so unified. It's great to see. I heard the YYZ roadshow was a banger.

[Fanblade]

.

How can you remove the MOA signing authority from the legal bargaining agent? Unless you mean a whole sale change to ALPA. Then I am all for it.

-Jimmy

Exactly what I meant. ALPA

How high do you think the risk is that ACPA brings you a substandard MOA at a time when arbitration IS actually a threat?

I see it as a substantial threat. They are afraid of confrontation. That means ACPA has to come to a deal without any labor action whatsoever. The company knows it.

The ONLY thing ACPA is going to bring us is an extension of whatever the company wants.

[pseudovector]

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

I've never seen it so unified. It's great to see. I heard the YYZ roadshow was a banger.

How long have you been at AC?
How many times have you been on strike as a pilot?
What is your sample size for the assertion above?

[negative_g]

It is not going to 85 instead of 80.
It is going to 85 DBM every month rather than surging to 88 in the summer and less in other months.
It is going up 24 hours max per year (996 to 1020).
If you take the average wide body day to be 8 hours then that equates to 3 extra working days per year.
If you take the average wide body day to be 12 hours then that equates to 2 extra working days per year.
And they are paid days.

Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB. Also the 88 "surge" is very limited, it can't be every fleet and every year. The 85 is a major increase in hours worked, and will decreased the amount of jobs required to man the fleet. Big no.

I'm usually a lurker. But I had to pipe up on this. I'm curious what wide body at AC averages 5 hours "Time Away From Base"? Maybe I'm confused what TAFB means. Maybe you're confused. We might all be confused.

So you could do a 3 day trip to Europe with a 7 hour and 8 hour flight return, 24 hours off in the middle and the average credit per day over 3 days is 5 hours.

Just because WB pilots fly long legs doesn't mean their average credit per day is much higher.

[Humble]

Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB. Also the 88 "surge" is very limited, it can't be every fleet and every year. The 85 is a major increase in hours worked, and will decreased the amount of jobs required to man the fleet. Big no.

I'm usually a lurker. But I had to pipe up on this. I'm curious what wide body at AC averages 5 hours "Time Away From Base"? Maybe I'm confused what TAFB means. Maybe you're confused. We might all be confused.

So you could do a 3 day trip to Europe with a 7 hour and 8 hour flight return, 24 hours off in the middle and the average credit per day over 3 days is 5 hours.

Just because WB pilots fly long legs doesn't mean their average credit per day is much higher.

Right. All I’m saying is that you are getting TAFB confused with credit hours. Your very first sentence “ Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB”. I’d Love to go to work and be home 5 hours later on a wide body. Though, Ottawa turns in my opinion, are a little to rushed for a wide body.