Is this the first AIP to not be in the benefit of the company?

[flyingfool]

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

Yes! If they didn’t capture it, someone else would swoop in and take it from them!!

How much of pay cut did WJ pilots take to fly cargo?

Zero

[cdnavater]

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

Yes! If they didn’t capture it, someone else would swoop in and take it from them!!

How much of pay cut did WJ pilots take to fly cargo?

Zero

Devil’s advocate, is it because you were already paid less than your competition?

[Bede]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

[cdnavater]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

[Bede]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

[cdnavater]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

Thanks, I was under the impression that AC couldn’t raise the pay because it was already much higher than yours.
Did the gap narrow that much with your last(first ALPA) contract?
What is going on behind the scenes then, with all the WJ pilots going to AC, it’ll take them quite awhile to pull ahead if they are counting on widebody pay to bring them up. I do understand the upgrade time is significantly less but I’m hearing some senior pilots are leaving, some who would be close to upgrading around the same time.

[Protonpilot]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

The vacation comparison is apples to oranges, and misleading IMHO.

AC vacation is based on 7 days per week. So a pilot with 10 years of service gets 38 days (4 weeks plus 10 stats) all paid at 2:55 per day. This works out to 111 hours of vacation pay in the year. A pilot with 25 years gets an extra week, this is the maximum allotment which is 131 hours of pay.

Reading the WJ contract (I don't work there), WJ vacation is based on 5 paid days per week, with two days unpaid tacked on to each 'vacation block'. A pilot with 10 years gets 4 blocks, which is 20 days paid at 4:30 per day. That's 90 hours of vacation pay in the year. This is the maximum which is reached after 7 YOS.

If you take only one week of vacation at AC it messes up your month because of the bidding system, you only get 21 hours of credit and usually need to work a lot of unproductive days for the rest of the month depending on fleet type and seniority because of the bidding system. Two weeks or more of vacation in a month seems to work better.

No idea how vacation affects your monthly schedule at WJ.

[cdnavater]

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

The vacation comparison is apples to oranges, and misleading IMHO.

AC vacation is based on 7 days per week. So a pilot with 10 years of service gets 38 days (4 weeks plus 10 stats) all paid at 2:55 per day. This works out to 111 hours of vacation pay in the year. A pilot with 25 years gets an extra week, this is the maximum allotment which is 131 hours of pay.

Reading the WJ contract (I don't work there), WJ vacation is based on 5 paid days per week, with two days unpaid tacked on to each 'vacation block'. A pilot with 10 years gets 4 blocks, which is 20 days paid at 4:30 per day. That's 90 hours of vacation pay in the year. This is the maximum which is reached after 7 YOS.

If you take only one week of vacation at AC it messes up your month because of the bidding system, you only get 21 hours of credit and usually need to work a lot of unproductive days for the rest of the month depending on fleet type and seniority because of the bidding system. Two weeks or more of vacation in a month seems to work better.

No idea how vacation affects your monthly schedule at WJ.

Is the WJ 20 days including stats? I sure hope not.

[Protonpilot]

Is the WJ 20 days including stats? I sure hope not.

You're right. I forgot to add the ten stat days paid at 4:30.

This would give 135 hours of annual vacation pay after 7 YOS at WJ. This is better than the 131 hours of vacation pay at AC which you only reach after 25 YOS. We lost a week of vacation pay in FOS in 2012 and have never gotten it back.

My point was that just saying 4:30/day and 2:55/day doesn't tell the full story. Vacation pay is better at WJ, but not 50% better. More like 5% or 10% better.

[Art Vandelay]

The most I ever worked in a month with a 5 day block of vacation at WJ was 11 days, since the narrowbody max is 16 and vacation days actually count towards your monthly maximum. Looking through the blocks here at AC and seeing what some people fly in a month with a 7 day block of vacation, some are working 14-15 days, so it is significantly different if you compound that over a year after even once you reach 10-15-20YOS.

Going into my 7th year before I left, theoretically you could bid one 5 day block of vac a month and 6 months out of the year work 11 days, it's a pretty damn good deal for lifestyle.

Before anyone flames me and says well why did I leave, vacation is just one part of a big equation. I'm happy to be here, just stating the facts.

[Bede]

Is the WJ 20 days including stats? I sure hope not.

You're right. I forgot to add the ten stat days paid at 4:30.

This would give 135 hours of annual vacation pay after 7 YOS at WJ. This is better than the 131 hours of vacation pay at AC which you only reach after 25 YOS. We lost a week of vacation pay in FOS in 2012 and have never gotten it back.

My point was that just saying 4:30/day and 2:55/day doesn't tell the full story. Vacation pay is better at WJ, but not 50% better. More like 5% or 10% better.

That's fair.

When I bid high credit flying before the flight duty regs changed, I'd work about 10 days a month. A week of vacation had me work about 7.

I bid easy/low credit flying now with commutable check-ins/checkouts and I work 15-16 days/month. With a week of vacation I'll work about 12 days.

[thepoors]

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.

When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

[tbayav8er]

My last pay cheque was $1120. That was with no unusual deductions. Year 1 FO on reserve. I am doing the 10% share purchase plan. Hardly flew at all in February. But still.....$1120. Not sure that constitutes being one of the best compensated pilots in Canada.

[Sharklasers]

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.


When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

[RochVoisine]

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.

When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

It's the typical ACPA old guard gas light technique

Blame everything around them except themselves...Westjet, the government, why US airlines are not comparators

They are oddly light on blaming management. Probably because management is all ex acpa reps.

And seem to forget how they endorsed a 10 yrs deal that completely neutered open bargaining for a decade and locked in concessions.

They also forget how they somehow took concessions during a 10 yrs deal

It's really just a diarrhea dump of work

[bcflyer]

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.


When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

ACPA is responsible for the state of things in Canada. Period. If you can’t see that then you are either blind or willfully ignorant of reality. The top airline raises the bar for everyone. We have not done that. The old guard MEC brought crap after crap after crap and enough pilots fell for the sell job to get things passed. I’ve been here 17 years and have seen the downward spiral. Now that they are gone I’m cautiously optimistic that positive change is in the air.

[RippleRock]

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.


When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

That's rich SL. There were monkeys at the helm in the late 00's and throughout the teens. The SS ACPA was certain to go aground. I watched. These dopes were just smart enough to get us in real trouble, but far too dumb to get us out. The Group of 27 were traitors one and all. They were out to "save us from ourselves". What a joke, what a legacy.

I remember one of them saying in early 2011 that the contract is "too thick and complicated".....never once wondering why. TA1 was an abomination that NEVER should have seen the light of day. FOS was the completely avoidable result. Anyone involved should be ashamed.

Gary Tarves said that the old "SS ACPA" was a heavily patched vessel, but it didn't leak. The abomination that was TA1 was the brainchild of utter incompetence. We were set back three decades. The contract looked like it was shelled and torpedoed at close range there were so many bloody holes.

Not once did the negotiators let the Membership in on the travesty that was about to unfold. Ya, I was there, and I blame ACPA 1000%. They are the definition of failure. How they lasted this long blows my mind.

BTW, good work insulting the new hires. So typical. They deserve better than you and Kaffee.

[Sharklasers]

Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.


When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

That's rich SL. There were monkeys at the helm in the late 00's and throughout the teens. The SS ACPA was certain to go aground. I watched. These dopes were just smart enough to get us in real trouble, but far too dumb to get us out. The Group of 27 were traitors one and all. They were out to "save us from ourselves". What a joke, what a legacy.

I remember one of them saying in early 2011 that the contract is "too thick and complicated".....never once wondering why. TA1 was an abomination that NEVER should have seen the light of day. FOS was the completely avoidable result. Anyone involved should be ashamed.

Gary Tarves said that the old "SS ACPA" was a heavily patched vessel, but it didn't leak. The abomination that was TA1 was the brainchild of utter incompetence. We were set back three decades. The contract looked like it was shelled and torpedoed at close range there were so many bloody holes.

Not once did the negotiators let the Membership in on the travesty that was about to unfold. Ya, I was there, and I blame ACPA 1000%. They are the definition of failure. How they lasted this long blows my mind.

BTW, good work insulting the new hires. So typical. They deserve better than you and Kaffee.

I’m not insulting new hires. He is literally a newly hired Jazz pilot. ACPA is not responsible for the state of Jazz pilots affairs, that’s firmly on Claude’s shoulders.

The idea that the monolith of ACPA is fully responsible for our current situation in a vacuum and ALPA is the solution to all our problems is nonsense to me. When you tell the FOS story you conveniently leave out the part where we elected a bunch of fist banging hardliners who were impossible to bargain with in good faith that walked us straight into the worst possible arbitration outcome despite the begging insistence of very expensive advisors and outside council to change course. But one pilot one vote and I’ll be happy to be proven wrong in a couple years time.
Cheers.

[thepoors]

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.


When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

First off I'm not at Jazz, a company serving up poverty wages under the AC banner, because I'm not "willing to work for a discount" as you put it. Yet you seem okay with every new hire doing that for 4 years at your own company. Every pilot going to AC right now is blatantly "working at a discount." Get your head out of whatever hole you have it in (probably management's).

Second, if AC is really the gleaming beacon of Canadian aviation that you seem to think it is, then why not lead? Why are you benchmarking "lowly" ULCCs? Who is choosing to pattern your pay off of them if not ACPA? You're way behind every major in North America because your membership keeps looking down instead of taking positive action. Why don't you start acting like a flag carrier and have some goddamn standards. It's embarrassing at this point.

[Dockjock]

1. We’re going to have to go on strike. Know this now and prepare.
2. Other employees, the public, find us a curiosity. Are they jealous, or hate us, or whatever, who cares. Ignore it. But you can start dressing like a pro in advance of being paid like one. Up your uniform game 30%. Shined shoes is easy.
3. Never talk about pay, low or high, how it works, where you came from or any of it, ever, with a non pilot but especially a flight attendant. Literally no upside to revealing anything. They think we are related. We’re not, at all. “It’s none of your business.” Or perhaps more politely, “I’d rather not talk about it.”
4. Get ready for conflict. Real, nasty stuff. Eat it when you have to, but never forget.

[LittleNelly]

The reason the US carriers have higher pay is they one up each other on each contract. Much more difficult to raise the bar when it is AC alone doing the lifting.

[Bede]

The reason the US carriers have higher pay is they one up each other on each contract. Much more difficult to raise the bar when it is AC alone doing the lifting.

huh? Like the cargo MOA, the loss of pension in 2013, etc.

Actually the reason that the pay is higher in the US is because the earnings that each pilot generates is nearly double that of a Canadian pilot.

[LittleNelly]

The reason the US carriers have higher pay is they one up each other on each contract. Much more difficult to raise the bar when it is AC alone doing the lifting.

huh? Like the cargo MOA, the loss of pension in 2013, etc.

Actually the reason that the pay is higher in the US is because the earnings that each pilot generates is nearly double that of a Canadian pilot.

What does loss of pension have to do with anything? Delta, American, United all lost theirs too.
The substandard Rouge conditions were structured to exactly mimic WestJets and Transat's conditions.

pilot pay is based on company earnings not negotiations? By that logic you are saying Canadian carriers should keep pay lower until they become as profitable?

The best way to raise conditions is for everyone to beat each other every cycle. It's exactly what has happened south of the border over the last decade.

[Bede]

pilot pay is based on company earnings not negotiations? By that logic you are saying Canadian carriers should keep pay lower until they become as profitable?

A bit of both actually. The wage ceiling is the forward earnings per pilot. The floor is the wage rate that your competitors are paying and are willing to pay your employees to jump ship. Our negotiating power influences our wage rate between these two goal posts. (There's a bit more too it than that, but I'm not going to write a novel.)

It's the same reason a Jazz pilot earns less than a 777 pilot. No matter how much striking a Jazz pilot does, they will never be able to capture the same wage as the 777 pilot. They simply don't generate the same earnings as a 777 pilot.

The reason our earnings are lower is because the cost of running an airline are far higher in Canada due to the tax and fee structure.

[LittleNelly]

pilot pay is based on company earnings not negotiations? By that logic you are saying Canadian carriers should keep pay lower until they become as profitable?

A bit of both actually. The wage ceiling is the forward earnings per pilot. The floor is the wage rate that your competitors are paying and are willing to pay your employees to jump ship. Our negotiating power influences our wage rate between these two goal posts. (There's a bit more too it than that, but I'm not going to write a novel.)

It's the same reason a Jazz pilot earns less than a 777 pilot. No matter how much striking a Jazz pilot does, they will never be able to capture the same wage as the 777 pilot. They simply don't generate the same earnings as a 777 pilot.

The reason our earnings are lower is because the cost of running an airline are far higher in Canada due to the tax and fee structure.

Agreed, good points, there definitely is a limit based on the economics of operating in Canada.