Wide body with no former jet-time
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Tigger/Pelmet
+1
I have been in the exact position you describe and elected not to take much of a crew rest break out of the cockpit because of it.
D.P. Davies wrote a very comprehensive book (Handling the Big Jets) that used to be almost required reading for new hires. It was the “Bible” of knowledge for high speed/high altitude/swept wing aircraft handling. Now it seems a year in a Dash 8 at FL210 and a knowledge of company SOP’s is all that is required to safely navigate an airplane at high altitude and high mach numbers across severe weather systems and hours from any place to land.
+1
I have been in the exact position you describe and elected not to take much of a crew rest break out of the cockpit because of it.
D.P. Davies wrote a very comprehensive book (Handling the Big Jets) that used to be almost required reading for new hires. It was the “Bible” of knowledge for high speed/high altitude/swept wing aircraft handling. Now it seems a year in a Dash 8 at FL210 and a knowledge of company SOP’s is all that is required to safely navigate an airplane at high altitude and high mach numbers across severe weather systems and hours from any place to land.
Last edited by sportingrifle on Tue May 09, 2023 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
F**k 4 years of flat pay, no legacy carrier in North America has that. It use to be 2 years let’s get that back. It should have been part of the 10 year contract, but too bad 86% were too blinded by the $10k signing bonus.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
I agree but they have no reason to get rid of flat pay. They could have 6 year flat pay and there would still be a sky high stack of resumes.
DEI = Didn’t Earn It
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
2 years? No thanks. Just abolish it.
They will when we start saying NO and stand up to what we want. Flat pay needs to be abolished. It's simple. We don't need leverage lol. We are coming to the end of a contract.
The reason why they will adjust is if the majority of us say NO and do not give into giving concessions.
It will not be an easy fight. But we need to get out of this mindset of " They need a magical reason" or " We need leverage".
Just say NO.
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Disclaimer:- Don't work at Air Canada.
At my company all Captains are right seat qualified. This gives a huge amount of operational flexibility.
If we are 3 Pilots it will normally be 2 Captains. On a recent flight with 4 Pilots it was 3 Captains.
It's not unusual to do a 2 crew flight with another Captain - we alternate as Commander.
We have clients that specify that one Captain must be in the Cockpit at all times.
There's more than one way to do things.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
That’s why it becomes incumbent on the membership to stand up and Say No. Imagine if we drew the line on the 4 year flat pay in 2014. But then again the likes of KV, DC, BM, CB and company were too busy spreading fear factor of can we do better in 2016.
The Jazz puppy mill will always be there, AC will never have supply issues.
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
It’s one thing to be assigned a WB FO course with no jet experience, it’s an entirely different topic to hear AC is now filling the majority of PIT classes with small turbo prop experience.
Heard the latest PIT class of 38 only has 6-10 candidates with jet experience (flair, WJ, corporate etc) the rest are primarily made up of King Air, 1900 and Pilatus pilots. Not many jazz candidates in this one.
Based on this info, how long before the pool of experienced pilots to hire from starts to really run dry for AC?
Heard the latest PIT class of 38 only has 6-10 candidates with jet experience (flair, WJ, corporate etc) the rest are primarily made up of King Air, 1900 and Pilatus pilots. Not many jazz candidates in this one.
Based on this info, how long before the pool of experienced pilots to hire from starts to really run dry for AC?
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
If AC offered $100k starting pay - the lowest experience pilot on a PIT course (OTS) would have 5000+ hours and at least 1 jet type endorsement, most likely MGTOW 100,000lbs+.Transition9er2 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 12:22 pm It’s one thing to be assigned a WB FO course with no jet experience, it’s an entirely different topic to hear AC is now filling the majority of PIT classes with small turbo prop experience.
Heard the latest PIT class of 38 only has 6-10 candidates with jet experience (flair, WJ, corporate etc) the rest are primarily made up of King Air, 1900 and Pilatus pilots. Not many jazz candidates in this one.
Based on this info, how long before the pool of experienced pilots to hire from starts to really run dry for AC?
But that is not what is being offered in 2023.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Lol SportingRiflesportingrifle wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 5:54 pm Tigger/Pelmet
+1
I have been in the exact position you describe and elected not to take much of a crew rest break out of the cockpit because of it.
D.P. Davies wrote a very comprehensive book (Handling the Big Jets) that used to be almost required reading for new hires. It was the “Bible” of knowledge for high speed/high altitude/swept wing aircraft handling. Now it seems a year in a Dash 8 at FL210 and a knowledge of company SOP’s is all that is required to safely navigate an airplane at high altitude and high mach numbers across severe weather systems and hours from any place to land.
You elect to fatigue yourself and choose not to utilize your augment resources because you don't trust the training of your employer & experience of your co-workers.
All while you were pro acpa and pro status quo because you see nothing wrong with the way things are heading.
Oh man

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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Stall...
What an arrogant response that shows you probably have little if any experience operating multi crew ETOPS flights.
My union related political opinions or ideas for how the airline should be managed are most likely poorly understood by yourself, but in any event are irrelevant.
Myself and my colleagues are constantly having to manage crew experience levels against expected operational threats. And it would be very simple to manage my own fatigue risks in isolation as you suggest. But the fatigue risks of the entire crew needs to be managed in conjunction with the varying threat levels expected during the flight, as well as the crew members experience levels to manage them. I am thankful that the crews I work with, even the very junior crew members, understand all of this.
What an arrogant response that shows you probably have little if any experience operating multi crew ETOPS flights.
My union related political opinions or ideas for how the airline should be managed are most likely poorly understood by yourself, but in any event are irrelevant.
Myself and my colleagues are constantly having to manage crew experience levels against expected operational threats. And it would be very simple to manage my own fatigue risks in isolation as you suggest. But the fatigue risks of the entire crew needs to be managed in conjunction with the varying threat levels expected during the flight, as well as the crew members experience levels to manage them. I am thankful that the crews I work with, even the very junior crew members, understand all of this.
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Are you suggesting your current SOPs and experience levels at your airline make it so you have to ignore fatigue regulations to run a safe operation?sportingrifle wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 10:17 pm Stall...
What an arrogant response that shows you probably have little if any experience operating multi crew ETOPS flights.
My union related political opinions or ideas for how the airline should be managed are most likely poorly understood by yourself, but in any event are irrelevant.
Myself and my colleagues are constantly having to manage crew experience levels against expected operational threats. And it would be very simple to manage my own fatigue risks in isolation as you suggest. But the fatigue risks of the entire crew needs to be managed in conjunction with the varying threat levels expected during the flight, as well as the crew members experience levels to manage them. I am thankful that the crews I work with, even the very junior crew members, understand all of this.
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Case in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...sportingrifle wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:04 am This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
The Jazz puppy mill is going to run low sooner or later. Soon it’s going to be only old dogs and puppies.RVR6000 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 2:02 amThat’s why it becomes incumbent on the membership to stand up and Say No. Imagine if we drew the line on the 4 year flat pay in 2014. But then again the likes of KV, DC, BM, CB and company were too busy spreading fear factor of can we do better in 2016.
The Jazz puppy mill will always be there, AC will never have supply issues.
The old dogs don’t want to go to AC and the puppies aren’t ready to be adopted out yet.

DEI = Didn’t Earn It
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
yeah.. but they were French..5degrees wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:53 pmCase in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...sportingrifle wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:04 am This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
If there ever was an asinine comment…Man_in_the_sky wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:06 pmyeah.. but they were French..5degrees wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:53 pmCase in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...sportingrifle wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:04 am This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
And the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?5degrees wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:53 pmCase in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...sportingrifle wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:04 am This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.
An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
digits_ wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:21 pmAnd the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?5degrees wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:53 pmCase in point AF 447 the capt went to the bunk as they were approaching CBs...sportingrifle wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:04 am This has nothing to do with fatigue regulations.
It is about ensuring a comfortable level of experience for the expected flight. Sometimes (for example navigating lines of thunderstorms around the equator) I would prefer myself in the flight deck at certain times, and those times may not coincide nicely with break periods. The idea is to avoid pairing 2 crew members with little experience together. Simple risk management. Nothing against newbies but experience counts-training and SOP’s only get you so far.
An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.
re: Operating FO 800 hrs on type, was this all his experience after ab initio training? If so, that’s Less than 2 years on the line, and doing those type of sectors, not a lot of cycles. Not quite green, but definitely still very new to the game.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
No, he had 3000 hoursTheAlcalde wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:40 amdigits_ wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:21 pmAnd the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?
An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.
re: Operating FO 800 hrs on type, was this all his experience after ab initio training? If so, that’s Less than 2 years on the line, and doing those type of sectors, not a lot of cycles. Not quite green, but definitely still very new to the game.
The flight was operated by three pilots:[2]: 24–29
The captain, 58-year-old Marc Dubois (PNF-pilot not flying)[2]: 21 had joined Air France in February 1988 from rival French domestic carrier Air Inter (which later merged into Air France),[39] and had 10,988 flying hours, of which 6,258 were as captain, including 1,700 hours on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 16 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2007.[40]
The relief first officer, co-pilot in left seat, 37-year-old David Robert (PNF) had joined Air France in July 1998 and had 6,547 flying hours, of which 4,479 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 39 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2002. Robert had graduated from École Nationale de l'Aviation Civile, one of the elite Grandes Écoles, and had transitioned from a pilot to a management job at the airline's operations center. He served as a pilot on this flight to maintain his flying credentials.[41][40]
The first officer, co-pilot in right seat, 32-year-old Pierre-Cédric Bonin (PF-pilot flying) had joined Air France in October 2003 and had 2,936 flight hours, of which 807 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out five rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2008.[40] His wife Isabelle, a physics teacher, was also on board.[42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447
Perhaps not much PIC time? One could argue a Dash 8 captain or King Air captain, or even a flight instructor might have had the instinct to push down instead of up when faced with this weird situation.
I've noticed during sim training that fully developed stalls are never (rarely?) trained. I can understand during actual flight training that you want to recover at the first signs of a stall, but if you're in a simulator, why not train/simulate full/deep stalls, Even if recovery is unlikely or hard, at least you get a taste of what it would look like.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Well, in sim training we go to the shaker.
As well for high altitude stalls.
We do now stall at 350, it takes about 5000 feet to recover if you apply the proper technic.
A stall at 3000 feet is totally different than a stall at high altitude.
Actually, with no training I can imagine how confusing it is to have one at 350.
As well for high altitude stalls.
We do now stall at 350, it takes about 5000 feet to recover if you apply the proper technic.
A stall at 3000 feet is totally different than a stall at high altitude.
Actually, with no training I can imagine how confusing it is to have one at 350.
Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Dear sir,digits_ wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:10 amNo, he had 3000 hoursTheAlcalde wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:40 amdigits_ wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:21 pm
And the relief FO had 4500 hours on type, the FO 800. How much more wide body time do you want before perhaps admitting it's not all that much of a guarantee and perhaps not really needed?
An eager new pilot might have reacted differently. Certainly couldn't have been much worse.
re: Operating FO 800 hrs on type, was this all his experience after ab initio training? If so, that’s Less than 2 years on the line, and doing those type of sectors, not a lot of cycles. Not quite green, but definitely still very new to the game.
The flight was operated by three pilots:[2]: 24–29
The captain, 58-year-old Marc Dubois (PNF-pilot not flying)[2]: 21 had joined Air France in February 1988 from rival French domestic carrier Air Inter (which later merged into Air France),[39] and had 10,988 flying hours, of which 6,258 were as captain, including 1,700 hours on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 16 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2007.[40]
The relief first officer, co-pilot in left seat, 37-year-old David Robert (PNF) had joined Air France in July 1998 and had 6,547 flying hours, of which 4,479 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out 39 rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2002. Robert had graduated from École Nationale de l'Aviation Civile, one of the elite Grandes Écoles, and had transitioned from a pilot to a management job at the airline's operations center. He served as a pilot on this flight to maintain his flying credentials.[41][40]
The first officer, co-pilot in right seat, 32-year-old Pierre-Cédric Bonin (PF-pilot flying) had joined Air France in October 2003 and had 2,936 flight hours, of which 807 hours were on the Airbus A330; he had carried out five rotations in the South America sector since arriving in the A330/A340 division in 2008.[40] His wife Isabelle, a physics teacher, was also on board.[42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49]
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447
Perhaps not much PIC time? One could argue a Dash 8 captain or King Air captain, or even a flight instructor might have had the instinct to push down instead of up when faced with this weird situation.
I've noticed during sim training that fully developed stalls are never (rarely?) trained. I can understand during actual flight training that you want to recover at the first signs of a stall, but if you're in a simulator, why not train/simulate full/deep stalls, Even if recovery is unlikely or hard, at least you get a taste of what it would look like.
Don't miss that the High altitude stall recovery wasn't in the A330 training program. Air France applied the training path from airbus.
Best Regards
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
That's because Simulators did not accurately model this.digits_ wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 11:10 am I've noticed during sim training that fully developed stalls are never (rarely?) trained. I can understand during actual flight training that you want to recover at the first signs of a stall, but if you're in a simulator, why not train/simulate full/deep stalls, Even if recovery is unlikely or hard, at least you get a taste of what it would look like.
This has now changed and the newer Simulators respond in the same way as the aircraft.
Older Simulators may not have been updated - or it may not be possible.
When I first started flying airbus there was no stall recovery procedure - the attitude was that it was impossible to stall the aircraft.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
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Re: Wide body with no former jet-time
Regarding AF 447
It’s not correct to look at this as an hours/experience issue imho.
This is training issue - they mismanaged a failure, resulting in the aircraft stalling.
If they had done absolutely nothing they would have been fine.
Northwest had the same thing happen crossing the Pacific. They flew pitch and power and when the airspeed recovered it was within 5 knots of target.
It’s not correct to look at this as an hours/experience issue imho.
This is training issue - they mismanaged a failure, resulting in the aircraft stalling.
If they had done absolutely nothing they would have been fine.
Northwest had the same thing happen crossing the Pacific. They flew pitch and power and when the airspeed recovered it was within 5 knots of target.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business