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Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:30 am
by Blueontop
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:36 am
flyingjerry wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:57 pm
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:55 pm
ALPA should adopt a national standard against training bonds.
Great idea so in the future it's just not even on the table.
If you were a Jazz pilot, wouldn't you be upset that your same union which you paid dues to for 20 years, signed off on allowing bonds at your competitor airline PAL where the pilots have only been with ALPA paying dues for 3 years?
AC then sends more work to PAL & shrinks Jazz, since PAL has lower costs.
Over 20 years Jazz pilots with ALPA have paid $40 to $50 million in union dues. Jazz has no training bond.
Then PAL shows up to join in 2020, & ALPA signs off on a $26000 bond for both FO & Cpts flying Dash8.
The new group at PAL’s undercutting the Jazz pilots & their 20 years & $40 to $50 million in ALPA support.
ALPA signed off on allowing PAL to undercut Jazz.
Where's the national coordination with ALPA?
Working together to help other pilot groups, similar to how the US pilot groups backed WJ in recent negotiations.
I absolutely agree with this, every ALPA outfit in canada better start coordinating together and all pull in the same direction. Shame on the PAL ALPA MEC for signing off on this.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:04 am
by goldeneagle
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:26 am
Do airlines pay pilots more for saving fuel on legs, burning less than planned?
Savings go to stocks & bonuses CEO
I guess you've never had a profit share cheque in your many years of aviation experience....
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 11:47 pm
by CaptDukeNukem
Blueontop wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:49 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 1:36 pm
digits_ wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:22 pm
Logically you're right. However my claim is that there is a correlation.
Can you name a couple of companies that have a bond and do not face retention issues?
Calm air. Generally high FO turnover, but captains mostly staying out cuz they like being home in winnipeg and the flying is decent. And as far as I’m aware they still make you sign a training agreement. I may be wrong but $25000k,
first year 25% of it is erased on a month to month, second year is 75% month to month
That’s complete horse shit.
Is it though? Maybe this has changed in latest contract. My info may be outdated. I am wrong about the amount. It’s $12000 instead of my previous mentioned $25k.
- IMG_8191.png (610.65 KiB) Viewed 8626 times
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:06 am
by Blueontop
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 11:47 pm
Blueontop wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:49 pm
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 1:36 pm
Calm air. Generally high FO turnover, but captains mostly staying out cuz they like being home in winnipeg and the flying is decent. And as far as I’m aware they still make you sign a training agreement. I may be wrong but $25000k,
first year 25% of it is erased on a month to month, second year is 75% month to month
That’s complete horse shit.
Is it though? Maybe this has changed in latest contract. My info may be outdated. I am wrong about the amount. It’s $12000 instead of my previous mentioned $25k. IMG_8191.png
Yes it is horse apples. A bond (regardless of its legitimacy in the first place) should be pro-rated an equal amount each day of the term of the bond. The next step after this contract would be it doesn’t reduce at all until the first day following then end of contract. IE. You work for the company for 2 years less a day and will still be on the hook for the entire $12k if you left the day before tue contract expires.
Horse Shit.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:55 am
by CanadaAir
goldeneagle wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:04 am
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 8:26 am
Do airlines pay pilots more for saving fuel on legs, burning less than planned?
Savings go to stocks & bonuses CEO
I guess you've never had a profit share cheque in your many years of aviation experience....
Can you list which ALPA airlines have profit share & how much?
Air Canada CEO gets a 300% raise, while AC pilots are on flat pay. Fair share of profit?
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/air-canada- ... -1.6350491
Most pilots in Canada don’t have profit share.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:53 am
by CanadaAir
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 1:36 pm
Calm air. Generally high FO turnover, but captains mostly staying out cuz they like being home in winnipeg and the flying is decent. And as far as I’m aware they still make you sign a training agreement.
They had a chance this year to remove the bond.
This is what happens when ALPA doesn't work together national.
Why's ALPA in 2023, with the pilots advantages continuing to sign unions off on bonding pilots. Holding back gains.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:57 am
by CaptDukeNukem
Blueontop wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:06 am
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sun Sep 10, 2023 11:47 pm
Blueontop wrote: ↑Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:49 pm
That’s complete horse shit.
Is it though? Maybe this has changed in latest contract. My info may be outdated. I am wrong about the amount. It’s $12000 instead of my previous mentioned $25k. IMG_8191.png
Yes it is horse apples. A bond (regardless of its legitimacy in the first place) should be pro-rated an equal amount each day of the term of the bond. The next step after this contract would be it doesn’t reduce at all until the first day following then end of contract. IE. You work for the company for 2 years less a day and will still be on the hook for the entire $12k if you left the day before tue contract expires.
Horse Shit.
Ahh. Yes I agree with you. Bonds are horseshit.
I was thinking you were saying that I was making this stuff up. My apologies.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 5:02 am
by CanadaAir
A motion & vote at the next ALPA national meeting this fall & all ALPA MEC can agree to be bound by national policy not to sign any future agreements with training bonds included & to remove them.
MEC which vote against removing bonds can be replaced.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:46 am
by CanadaAir
Here’s a bonus if you stay, getting away from the negatives of bonds
PC-12 Captain Thunder Bay with retention bonus
viewtopic.php?t=198642
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:54 pm
by goldeneagle
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:55 am
Can you list which ALPA airlines have profit share & how much?
Westjet had a profit share, but I believe it went away when ALPA took over. Air Canada had something along that line in the past, not sure if it's still around. As for how much, it depends entirely on company profits, or is that to complex a subject for you to understand ?
But you are so upset about ALPA signing contracts with training bonds, now I'm really curious, which ALPA contract includes a training bond in the union contract ? To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single mention of a bond any ALPA contract.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:49 pm
by JBI
goldeneagle wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:54 pm
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:55 am
Can you list which ALPA airlines have profit share & how much?
Westjet had a profit share, but I believe it went away when ALPA took over. Air Canada had something along that line in the past, not sure if it's still around. As for how much, it depends entirely on company profits, or is that to complex a subject for you to understand ?
But you are so upset about ALPA signing contracts with training bonds, now I'm really curious, which ALPA contract includes a training bond in the union contract ? To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single mention of a bond any ALPA contract.
WestJet still has profit share as part of its variable compensation and we have received a very small amount since ALPA has represented the pilot group. There has not been any profit (thus no profit share) during the last few years with COVID. It is expected that there will be a small profit share cheque again this year. Both before and after ALPA represented the pilots there was not much transparency as to how much profit share is/should be paid out. The formula involves percentages based on both the current and past years’ performance. Nonetheless, they still did pay out a very small amount at the very beginning of COVID because they had been profitable in the last few months of 2019.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:05 am
by CanadaAir
goldeneagle wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:54 pm
But you are so upset about ALPA signing contracts with training bonds, now I'm really curious, which ALPA contract includes a training bond in the union contract ? To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single mention of a bond any ALPA contract.
See the list in the posts above.
Most of the companies include the training agreements in one of the sections or the appendices.
You can view them in writing in the contract.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:31 pm
by CaptDukeNukem
CanadaAir wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:05 am
goldeneagle wrote: ↑Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:54 pm
But you are so upset about ALPA signing contracts with training bonds, now I'm really curious, which ALPA contract includes a training bond in the union contract ? To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single mention of a bond any ALPA contract.
See the list in the posts above.
Most of the companies include the training agreements in one of the sections or the appendices.
You can view them in writing in the contract.
I’m in agreement with CanadaAir. I have definitely seen agreements between ALPA and companies that include training bonds directly written in the contract. Read their CBAs. It was accepted by ALPA and sent to the members.and some companies still doing it.
Edit for spelling.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 8:49 pm
by -42
Good old EIC. Good times there.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:33 pm
by Janitroll
Finally, a small company with signing bonuses instead of bonds.
Why join MAG Aerospace Canada?
• Signing bonus of $2,500 upon obtaining PPC!
• Paid accommodation
• Retention bonus at end of contract
• Per diems paid when off base
• No training bond
• Fixed salary, not affected by periods of low
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=209565
Why are some pilots still signing bonds? Don't they want bonuses instead?
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:27 pm
by fliter
Janitroll wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:33 pm
Why are some pilots still signing bonds? Don't they want bonuses instead?
This sounds a bit like "let them eat cake".
Not everyone will get an interview invite from a company with signing bonuses. As you said yourself, those are pretty uncommon even in today's environment.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:29 am
by Janitroll
fliter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:27 pm
Janitroll wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:33 pm
Why are some pilots still signing bonds? Don't they want bonuses instead?
This sounds a bit like "let them eat cake".
Not everyone will get an interview invite from a company with signing bonuses. As you said yourself, those are pretty uncommon even in today's environment.
More might get an interview with a signing bonus if they stopped signing bonds.
Other places like Ornge have no bond. Or you can go to Wasaya for the same job and pay $9,500 in cash.
Wasaya contract section 10.9.5 - “Prior to taking flight or simulator training,
the pilot will make a payment to Wasaya Airways LP in the amount of the training contract as outlined in Section 10.8.9.”
10.9.7 “
Only a cash deposit or a cheque will be accepted. No other forms of payment will be accepted.”
ALPA signed agreement with this in it. ALPA MEC & ALPA national.
ALPA national needs to stop signing CBA with such sections.
The union movement wasn’t about employees paying the company to hold the employees from freedom to leave for better work at other workplaces.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:40 pm
by IJNShiroyuki
Janitroll wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:29 am
fliter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:27 pm
Janitroll wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 5:33 pm
Why are some pilots still signing bonds? Don't they want bonuses instead?
This sounds a bit like "let them eat cake".
Not everyone will get an interview invite from a company with signing bonuses. As you said yourself, those are pretty uncommon even in today's environment.
More might get an interview with a signing bonus if they stopped signing bonds.
Other places like Ornge have no bond. Or you can go to Wasaya for the same job and pay $9,500 in cash.
Wasaya contract section 10.9.5 - “Prior to taking flight or simulator training,
the pilot will make a payment to Wasaya Airways LP in the amount of the training contract as outlined in Section 10.8.9.”
10.9.7 “
Only a cash deposit or a cheque will be accepted. No other forms of payment will be accepted.”
ALPA signed agreement with this in it. ALPA MEC & ALPA national.
ALPA national needs to stop signing CBA with such sections.
The union movement wasn’t about employees paying the company to hold the employees from freedom to leave for better work at other workplaces.
Wasaya now give pilot 3 bond options, first one is like what you posted, pilot pay up front and will be refunded upon completion.
The second option is pilot pay half.
And third option is company will pay for it, if you leave, you owe company the bond.
Obviously no one will sign option 1 or 2.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:11 am
by piperdriver
IJNShiroyuki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:40 pm
Janitroll wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:29 am
fliter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 7:27 pm
This sounds a bit like "let them eat cake".
Not everyone will get an interview invite from a company with signing bonuses. As you said yourself, those are pretty uncommon even in today's environment.
More might get an interview with a signing bonus if they stopped signing bonds.
Other places like Ornge have no bond. Or you can go to Wasaya for the same job and pay $9,500 in cash.
Wasaya contract section 10.9.5 - “Prior to taking flight or simulator training,
the pilot will make a payment to Wasaya Airways LP in the amount of the training contract as outlined in Section 10.8.9.”
10.9.7 “
Only a cash deposit or a cheque will be accepted. No other forms of payment will be accepted.”
ALPA signed agreement with this in it. ALPA MEC & ALPA national.
ALPA national needs to stop signing CBA with such sections.
The union movement wasn’t about employees paying the company to hold the employees from freedom to leave for better work at other workplaces.
Wasaya now give pilot 3 bond options, first one is like what you posted, pilot pay up front and will be refunded upon completion.
The second option is pilot pay half.
And third option is company will pay for it, if you leave, you owe company the bond.
Obviously no one will sign option 1 or 2.
If a new pilot at Wasaya were to choose option 1, would Wasaya repay the balance of the bond with or without interest?
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:22 pm
by IJNShiroyuki
piperdriver wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:11 am
IJNShiroyuki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:40 pm
Janitroll wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:29 am
More might get an interview with a signing bonus if they stopped signing bonds.
Other places like Ornge have no bond. Or you can go to Wasaya for the same job and pay $9,500 in cash.
Wasaya contract section 10.9.5 - “Prior to taking flight or simulator training,
the pilot will make a payment to Wasaya Airways LP in the amount of the training contract as outlined in Section 10.8.9.”
10.9.7 “
Only a cash deposit or a cheque will be accepted. No other forms of payment will be accepted.”
ALPA signed agreement with this in it. ALPA MEC & ALPA national.
ALPA national needs to stop signing CBA with such sections.
The union movement wasn’t about employees paying the company to hold the employees from freedom to leave for better work at other workplaces.
Wasaya now give pilot 3 bond options, first one is like what you posted, pilot pay up front and will be refunded upon completion.
The second option is pilot pay half.
And third option is company will pay for it, if you leave, you owe company the bond.
Obviously no one will sign option 1 or 2.
If a new pilot at Wasaya were to choose option 1, would Wasaya repay the balance of the bond with or without interest?
with interest
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:07 pm
by CaptDukeNukem
IJNShiroyuki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:22 pm
piperdriver wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:11 am
IJNShiroyuki wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:40 pm
Wasaya now give pilot 3 bond options, first one is like what you posted, pilot pay up front and will be refunded upon completion.
The second option is pilot pay half.
And third option is company will pay for it, if you leave, you owe company the bond.
Obviously no one will sign option 1 or 2.
If a new pilot at Wasaya were to choose option 1, would Wasaya repay the balance of the bond with or without interest?
with interest
What rate?
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:28 pm
by IJNShiroyuki
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:07 pm
IJNShiroyuki wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:22 pm
piperdriver wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:11 am
If a new pilot at Wasaya were to choose option 1, would Wasaya repay the balance of the bond with or without interest?
with interest
What rate?
why do you even care? No one is signing that option, are you one of the dumber guy that want to fork out the training cost yourself thus why you're asking?
If so, FYI, prime+2%
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:11 am
by CaptDukeNukem
IJNShiroyuki wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:28 pm
why do you even care? No one is signing that option, are you one of the dumber guy that want to fork out the training cost yourself thus why you're asking?
If so, FYI, prime+2%
I’m just curious if anyone can make a decent return lol.
And no, I doubt people would be lining up for option 1.
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:50 am
by up on one
Prime +2%? So I’m getting a 9.2% return? How many type ratings can I apply for at Wasaya?
Re: ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds
Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:36 pm
by CaptDukeNukem
up on one wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:50 am
Prime +2%? So I’m getting a 9.2% return? How many type ratings can I apply for at Wasaya?
Kinda what I was thinking.