cjp wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:44 am
I'm always open to growth and would consider ALPA if it made sense to our guys as a whole, but I'm not waving the ALPA flag. While both WS and AC did alright in their negotiations, watching it left many mixed emotions (generally developed after consoling friends who didn't see any major gains), even though when you look at the big picture, there were some gains to be had. To me, important items that I feel are missing right now at Porter are:
- Industry level salary for jet and scope of flying (I've stated my valuations above).
- Per diems (USD for US or international operations with a benchmark to CRA current levels).
- Retirement proofing (preferably a pension to signal long term care).
- Benefits (Medical/Dental) (general increase without a massive hit to monthly costs, or a decrease in costs in general).
Those things sorted, I can live with current state of operations. I know I won't see Christmas or summer vacation on my vacation bids for over a decade, but I can work around that. Everything else is in flux and I'm just a little ship on a big ocean, laying keel.
The problem is that without an actual contract in place, all these tremendous things disappear one Friday afternoon via a bulletin, and you'll have no recourse.
cjp wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:44 amUnions are there to protect the weakest of employees, who typically (the employee) make poor decisions; career, life or otherwise, while all the good ones pay for it.
Unions protect all employees. Yes, it's sometimes frustrating to see them defending the numpties, but it's not as though unions absolve you of all responsibility: they just provide representation to give pilots a fighting chance against a giant corporate entity with way more resources. And they do not only protect the weakest employees but also the inconvenient ones (as pointed out by goingnowherefast), or ones that made an honest mistake (to which none of us fallible humans are immune).
JHR wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 4:36 am
CJP....where can I get some of that tasty Kool Aid if yours?
Why? Is the Kool-Aid your Mom usually buys you no longer tasty? I'll let you in on a little secret: it's the same Kool-Aid made in the same plant—just with a different label.
You don't need a union until you find yourself in a situation that you really realize you need a union - and it happens just like that and then it's too late.
You think you're a team guy, making good decisions, going the extra mile all the time type person - your drinking the kool-aid - but then you tell the operator "No" one time, flight cancels, manager is getting asked questions by their boss, and suddenly you're in a meeting alone with HR and your managers and then you're thrown under the bus. Failed planning was the problem and they will hang it on you to just go, push on despite weather/CARs/maintenance/fatigue, put you in the situation to make the hard decision, the unpopular decision, and then that's it, and it will all be on you.
If you don't think that it happens to the best of us, you're naive. I would suggest that the best of us in fact are the ones with the stones to say No despite pressure.
Canadian 705 airlines are all just bush operations with jets. This happens at every one of them. If you want to make it a career out of that place I would protect it.
PorterPilots4Change wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 6:50 pm
We are happy to share that we will be hosting our second ALPA information session. To join, reach out to one of our many organizing committee members, or, contact us via our website.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:41 pm
Any bets on the benchmark?
Financials, QOL, retirement?
I have no idea where this is headed but will absolutely push the needle to where I stand about a union.
Money will be good for E2 FOs, QOL will be back in line to when we launched this program.
Retirement, not happening. That takes actuaries which we definitely do not have.
I’m thinking they got to stop the bleeding from FO ranks. I reckon you’re right with E2 FO money, but I also think they need to have a set plan for Dash transfers. With significant money there as well.
I agree with you, retirement might be a side burner thing for the moment. I’m interested to see what two QOL packages the company (and FOAG comittee) will offer to us for a vote.
Kinda feels slightly unionish doesn’t it lol.
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Last edited by CaptDukeNukem on Tue Dec 03, 2024 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:41 pm
Any bets on the benchmark?
Financials, QOL, retirement?
I have no idea where this is headed but will absolutely push the needle to where I stand about a union.
Money will be good for E2 FOs, QOL will be back in line to when we launched this program.
Retirement, not happening. That takes actuaries which we definitely do not have.
What are the employment alternatives? 10-12 year upgrades at WJ? AC projected hiring for next 12 months less than 300. Transat hiring is very limited. Flair? Cargojet?
Market has changed. Might affect a non-formulaic result.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:41 pm
Any bets on the benchmark?
Financials, QOL, retirement?
I have no idea where this is headed but will absolutely push the needle to where I stand about a union.
Money will be good for E2 FOs, QOL will be back in line to when we launched this program.
Retirement, not happening. That takes actuaries which we definitely do not have.
What are the employment alternatives? 10-12 year upgrades at WJ? AC projected hiring for next 12 months less than 300. Transat hiring is very limited. Flair? Cargojet?
Market has changed. Might affect a non-formulaic result.
Ironically people are still chasing the flag.
Why, I don’t know
Didn’t know about projected hires at AC being only 300
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 4:39 pm
Kinda feels slightly unionish doesn’t it lol.
Yep! lol. That was my first thought as soon as I read that we will get a chance to vote on the package.
Well, it’s a start!
That is definitely part of why a union is being looked at, if the FOAG sets a policy where all “deals” with the company are put to a vote, they could delay any union talk to a ways in the future.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:41 pm
Any bets on the benchmark?
Financials, QOL, retirement?
I have no idea where this is headed but will absolutely push the needle to where I stand about a union.
What's the point when they can just take it all away again? A real union means things can't get taken away on management's whim (Friday afternoon bulletin special). FOAG seems like they're being a pretend union without the actual benefits. Get certified ASAP, protect your work, work rules and pay. That's what a real union does.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:41 pm
Any bets on the benchmark?
Financials, QOL, retirement?
I have no idea where this is headed but will absolutely push the needle to where I stand about a union.
Money will be good for E2 FOs, QOL will be back in line to when we launched this program.
Retirement, not happening. That takes actuaries which we definitely do not have.
What are the employment alternatives? 10-12 year upgrades at WJ? AC projected hiring for next 12 months less than 300. Transat hiring is very limited. Flair? Cargojet?
Market has changed. Might affect a non-formulaic result.
I’ve certainly heard bigger numbers than 300 in the next year for AC. Not to mention we are bleeding pilots, mostly E2 FO’s, entirely to AC.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:41 pm
Any bets on the benchmark?
Financials, QOL, retirement?
I have no idea where this is headed but will absolutely push the needle to where I stand about a union.
What's the point when they can just take it all away again? A real union means things can't get taken away on management's whim (Friday afternoon bulletin special). FOAG seems like they're being a pretend union without the actual benefits. Get certified ASAP, protect your work, work rules and pay. That's what a real union does.
Well the point would be to improve current contract laws before locking into something that would absolutely give ZERO gains for at least two years while organizing. But hey, fight the power.
For me, I’ll wait and see. This benchmark will make it a deciding factor for me.
Money will be good for E2 FOs, QOL will be back in line to when we launched this program.
Retirement, not happening. That takes actuaries which we definitely do not have.
What are the employment alternatives? 10-12 year upgrades at WJ? AC projected hiring for next 12 months less than 300. Transat hiring is very limited. Flair? Cargojet?
Market has changed. Might affect a non-formulaic result.
I’ve certainly heard bigger numbers than 300 in the next year for AC. Not to mention we are bleeding pilots, mostly E2 FO’s, entirely to AC.
282 vacancies in latest bid. Looks out 12 months.
No doubt that bids next year might see increases in forecast vacancies but that remains speculation vs fact. Deliveries + attrition = hiring requirements.
In that regard, it is still likely that AC and Porter will be the two leaders in pilot hiring in 2025.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:10 pm
Well the point would be to improve current contract laws before locking into something that would absolutely give ZERO gains for at least two years while organizing. But hey, fight the power.
For me, I’ll wait and see. This benchmark will make it a deciding factor for me.
Just want to clarify one thing for the folks who are thinking of coming to Porter.
1) We do NOT have a contract. We have a policy document that gets changed more than a pair of skid marked underwear. This document is NOT law as it gets violated by the company almost daily.
2) While yes work rules are frozen once certified, they absolutely can be amended via LOU or LOA. Why is this important?
We need approximately 900 pilots on the E2 alone to meet the need of 75 tails. We sit around 350 now. So we can keep things the way they are, but our attrition which is already through the roof will continue to go on.
A negotiation can occur to mitigate that attrition WHILE the work rules are frozen. Many companies have done just that in the past. If the company chose to not do so that is their prerogative, but kiss the expansion goodbye and it will also show that the Deluces are all business at the end of the day.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:10 pm
Well the point would be to improve current contract laws before locking into something that would absolutely give ZERO gains for at least two years while organizing. But hey, fight the power.
For me, I’ll wait and see. This benchmark will make it a deciding factor for me.
Just want to clarify one thing for the folks who are thinking of coming to Porter.
1) We do NOT have a contract. We have a policy document that gets changed more than a pair of skid marked underwear. This document is NOT law as it gets violated by the company almost daily.
2) While yes work rules are frozen once certified, they absolutely can be amended via LOU or LOA. Why is this important?
We need approximately 900 pilots on the E2 alone to meet the need of 75 tails. We sit around 350 now. So we can keep things the way they are, but our attrition which is already through the roof will continue to go on.
A negotiation can occur to mitigate that attrition WHILE the work rules are frozen. Many companies have done just that in the past. If the company chose to not do so that is their prerogative, but kiss the expansion goodbye and it will also show that the Deluces are all business at the end of the day.
Sure, it’s not a contract. there are close to 500 E2 pilots on the latest seniority list dated last week of November. Sure attrition is a problem. But if you think a union is gonna magically stop E2 FOs to duck over to AC then you’re sadly mistaken.
Funny thing about contracts, they can also be bent. Jazz had 60% flow to AC. Guess how that worked out. There’s hundreds of pilots that got screwed over and still waiting for nothing to ever happen. No amount of speed tape will ever fix that.
I get what you are saying. Unionize; then use LOUs to adjust that problem. I personally admire your fight for the greater good. Your issue is timing.
You are weeks away (or less) from an announcement. Sit tight. Make decisions in the new year.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 9:10 pm
Well the point would be to improve current contract laws before locking into something that would absolutely give ZERO gains for at least two years while organizing. But hey, fight the power.
For me, I’ll wait and see. This benchmark will make it a deciding factor for me.
Just want to clarify one thing for the folks who are thinking of coming to Porter.
1) We do NOT have a contract. We have a policy document that gets changed more than a pair of skid marked underwear. This document is NOT law as it gets violated by the company almost daily.
2) While yes work rules are frozen once certified, they absolutely can be amended via LOU or LOA. Why is this important?
We need approximately 900 pilots on the E2 alone to meet the need of 75 tails. We sit around 350 now. So we can keep things the way they are, but our attrition which is already through the roof will continue to go on.
A negotiation can occur to mitigate that attrition WHILE the work rules are frozen. Many companies have done just that in the past. If the company chose to not do so that is their prerogative, but kiss the expansion goodbye and it will also show that the Deluces are all business at the end of the day.
Which companies and when? And how it did work out?
Even if this benchmark is relatively "good", why shouldn't we unionize as well. Why are some people treating this like it's one or the other. Personally, I'm not expecting much (I'm on the dash), but I'm hoping for a good benchmark. And if it is a good benchmark, then great, let's get the union going! They can focus less on pay, and more on getting back all our concessions. And if the benchmark sucks, well the union can still work hard for us and most importantly insure us from all the what-ifs that insurance is made for.
Hell, all I want is some sort of reasonable flow to the jet. I doubt the foag can use their flexibility to get that going, but even if they did, I'd still vote ALPA in. Because at the end of the day, the foag signs everything in pencil, and the company is holding the eraser.
BaldChewbacca wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 12:56 am
Even if this benchmark is relatively "good", why shouldn't we unionize as well. Why are some people treating this like it's one or the other. Personally, I'm not expecting much (I'm on the dash), but I'm hoping for a good benchmark. And if it is a good benchmark, then great, let's get the union going! They can focus less on pay, and more on getting back all our concessions. And if the benchmark sucks, well the union can still work hard for us and most importantly insure us from all the what-ifs that insurance is made for.
Hell, all I want is some sort of reasonable flow to the jet. I doubt the foag can use their flexibility to get that going, but even if they did, I'd still vote ALPA in. Because at the end of the day, the foag signs everything in pencil, and the company is holding the eraser.
I'm guessing you're holding out for direct left to left cause we have guys in the 7xxx's flowing over to the jet in the right in one of the last classes.
A union won't change the flow. The flow is strictly based on the amount of jets and staffing on the Dash. Only difference in 2 years time you could grieve the outcome.
