Recall of MEC Chair & Vice Chair

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Why can't you get a pay raise & have a bonus?

Every other airline got/has that

Or do you just work hard to rationalize poor outcomes?

The company said no so we can't. As far as I've been able to determine this was the reason.

[cdnavater]

What round of bargaining did United/Delta have to give up concessions like their bonus to get their current pay & quality of life?

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna8196565

“Failing pensions exact a human toll
The scale of United Airlines' $9 billion pension default, the largest in U.S. history, has until now received more attention than the toll on the lives of the bankrupt airline's 120,000 employees and pensioners. United retirees are now telling their stories.”

https://www.pbgc.gov/wr/large/united/un ... estoration

“Why PBGC Cannot Restore the United Airlines’ Pension Plans (June 2017)

PBGC has received numerous inquiries about restoring the United Airlines (UAL) pension plans that were terminated in 2005 during UAL’s Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding. While UAL is now profitable, UAL cannot be forced to take back its terminated pension plans.
On April 22, 2005, while UAL was still struggling to reorganize in bankruptcy, PBGC and UAL entered into a settlement agreement. The basic terms of the agreement called for the termination of UAL’s four pension plans, which were then underfunded by more than $10 billion, and the resolution of PBGC’s claims against the bankrupt airline. In exchange for settling its claims, PBGC received consideration valued at approximately $1.6 billion from the UAL bankruptcy. As provided by law, PBGC has shared its recoveries with the UAL plan participants”

“06, Delta Air Lines terminated its pilots' pension plan and reached a settlement with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). The PBGC became the trustee of the Delta Pilots Retirement Plan.
Why was the plan terminated?
Delta needed to shed the plan to get financing for its bankruptcy exit
The plan's funding was threatened by low interest rates and poor stock market returns
What happened to the plan?
The PBGC became the trustee of the plan
The PBGC caps payouts at $31,000 or less per year for people who retired at 60”

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna14685486

“Delta said current retired pilots would still receive, on average, about $75,200 a year, including the lump sum payment. It did not provide an updated estimate of how much pilots who retire in the future without a lump sum will get”

https://www.reuters.com/article/markets ... N05288434/

“Unlike its rivals, however, Delta is preserving pension accounts covering more than 90,000 non-union workers and retirees, including flight attendants and ground workers.
Bankrupt Northwest Airlines has no plans to terminate worker pensions as part of its restructuring, the airline has said.
Delta had said it could not afford to make required contributions to the pilots' pension plan if it wanted to survive.”

https://time.com/5167301/airlines-pilots-pensions/

The efforts suggest that pilots are ready to play hardball over the issue in the next round of labor talks, starting early next year at American. The three biggest U.S. carriers have reported combined adjusted profits of about $47 billion over the past five years. But reviving old retirement plans would be a big new expense for the companies just as other costs, such as fuel, are rising

““This company is flush with money,” said Dan Carey, president of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents aviators at American. At the same time, “we have a high demographic of middle-age pilots and we’re approaching retirement age with insufficient pension security. This is an immediate problem.“

Great example, retired pilots with 31,000/yr pension, others who haven’t had the time to rebuild before mandatory retirement!
Yes they are paying great now but the U.S pilots went through much worse pain then AC pilots in the early 2000s, be thankful for Canada’s pension laws.
I think if you asked them, they would take less pay in exchange for restoring their pension benefits, there are even stories about that very thing!

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Amazing...

US Airline pilots already got 18% (on earnings) company paid contributions on their pensions and are looking for more from injustices in the past.

Emphasis here: they contribute zero of their own money in that 18%

I wonder if they are signing 17 yrs deals or giving up their incentive (bonus) plans.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Has anyone figured out how to vote in the recall poll on the 13th if we can't make it to the meeting in person?

[cdnavater]

Amazing...

US Airline pilots already got 18% (on earnings) company paid contributions on their pensions and are looking for more from injustices in the past.

Emphasis here: they contribute zero of their own money in that 18%

I wonder if they are signing 17 yrs deals or giving up their incentive (bonus) plans.

Are you really that dense, don’t answer. I already know!
They now have a DC pension but are essentially starting over 20 years ago, the before bankruptcy pension is basically shit, so it’s based on earnings after that.
Imagine, your pension gets wiped out and you now have a DC pension based on your current bankruptcy era wages but you only have 20 years left to go before retirement and the company you work for is making billions in profit, absolutely you need to make more money to make that 18% count!
How many cycles of bargaining have they had since 2005, five and when did they really start making real progress, two cycles ago. So , yah, some of their pilots are not retiring with a great pension, making 350-500k a year will help some of that shortfall.
AC pilots made some real progress after their 10 year CBA, you didn’t lose your pension in bankruptcy, get your ducks in a row for next round and quit whining about how much better Delta and United pilots have it, they lost way more than you did in the past!

[Tbayer2021]

Thank you for the well wishes and of course I agree it was hearsay, that’s why I said it was rumoured at 42%.
I’m not expecting more than what was agreed to, I expect the outcome at the very least should be what was agreed to between Jazz and Jazz ALPA, AC not being our employer should not have been able to intervene to a point of outright refusing it. If they had that much say, it should have been before, ie; telling Jazz negotiators their max before it became a tentative agreement, we shall see!
As for the other contract violations, PAL and not honouring the flow, have not heard any thing regarding what that might look like but it would not be fair to say Claude is biased until we see the outcome. Of course his job is to protect Jazz pilots best interest but we also need to challenge every contract violation, otherwise what’s the point of having a contract!

You've mentioned your take home being 31% higher under the new deal a few times now. You've also mentioned that the initial deal between Jazz and its pilots was rumoured to be around 42%. Did you mean you expected the deal AC squashed to be 42% higher in take home? Because 31% higher take home probably translates to more than 42% pre tax at your tax bracket, no?

Honest question.

my 31% increase is based on a 26% pay and them paying the benefits now.
If it were a 42% increase on top of them paying the benefits, great, if not the increase of 42% takes me to 228.62 with a July 1 bump up to 233.20, based on pre TA scale

I guess this is the part I'm wondering about, but we will likely never know the details of that first agreement.

[cdnavater]

You've mentioned your take home being 31% higher under the new deal a few times now. You've also mentioned that the initial deal between Jazz and its pilots was rumoured to be around 42%. Did you mean you expected the deal AC squashed to be 42% higher in take home? Because 31% higher take home probably translates to more than 42% pre tax at your tax bracket, no?

Honest question.

my 31% increase is based on a 26% pay and them paying the benefits now.
If it were a 42% increase on top of them paying the benefits, great, if not the increase of 42% takes me to 228.62 with a July 1 bump up to 233.20, based on pre TA scale

I guess this is the part I'm wondering about, but we will likely never know the details of that first agreement.

That depends on what gets negotiated, if it goes to the arbitrator, I can’t see him giving anything other than what was freely negotiated.

[Tbayer2021]

my 31% increase is based on a 26% pay and them paying the benefits now.
If it were a 42% increase on top of them paying the benefits, great, if not the increase of 42% takes me to 228.62 with a July 1 bump up to 233.20, based on pre TA scale

I guess this is the part I'm wondering about, but we will likely never know the details of that first agreement.

That depends on what gets negotiated, if it goes to the arbitrator, I can’t see him giving anything other than what was freely negotiated.

Right, but what I was wondering was that if that 42% raise that was freely negotiated didn't include the company paying for most the your deductions. It may translate to an increase in take-home pay of less than 31% depending on your tax bracket. Hopefully you don't have to wait much longer for this matter to be settled, the wait can sometimes be the worst part. Also hoping the result is a net gain.

[Man_in_the_sky]

my 31% increase is based on a 26% pay and them paying the benefits now.
If it were a 42% increase on top of them paying the benefits, great, if not the increase of 42% takes me to 228.62 with a July 1 bump up to 233.20, based on pre TA scale

I guess this is the part I'm wondering about, but we will likely never know the details of that first agreement.

That depends on what gets negotiated, if it goes to the arbitrator, I can’t see him giving anything other than what was freely negotiated.

the issues is the lack of experienced new candidates. Top scale captain are ok, dont need to waster bargaining power right now on that. Noone at this stage will leave anyway.

[cdnavater]

I guess this is the part I'm wondering about, but we will likely never know the details of that first agreement.

That depends on what gets negotiated, if it goes to the arbitrator, I can’t see him giving anything other than what was freely negotiated.

the issues is the lack of experienced new candidates. Top scale captain are ok, dont need to waster bargaining power right now on that. Noone at this stage will leave anyway.

That’s the problem, the company holds that exact view, so respectfully we need to make sure all Jazz pilots are included in any improvements!

[Man_in_the_sky]

That depends on what gets negotiated, if it goes to the arbitrator, I can’t see him giving anything other than what was freely negotiated.

the issues is the lack of experienced new candidates. Top scale captain are ok, dont need to waster bargaining power right now on that. Noone at this stage will leave anyway.

That’s the problem, the company holds that exact view, so respectfully we need to make sure all Jazz pilots are included in any improvements!

Yeah, having tasted a B scale at Jazz, i cant see this happening

[cdnavater]

I guess this is the part I'm wondering about, but we will likely never know the details of that first agreement.

That depends on what gets negotiated, if it goes to the arbitrator, I can’t see him giving anything other than what was freely negotiated.

Right, but what I was wondering was that if that 42% raise that was freely negotiated didn't include the company paying for most the your deductions. It may translate to an increase in take-home pay of less than 31% depending on your tax bracket. Hopefully you don't have to wait much longer for this matter to be settled, the wait can sometimes be the worst part. Also hoping the result is a net gain.

I believe we would still fair better with a 42% increase and paying out benefits, pre implementation top scale was 149.30 this July 1 @ 85 hours, yearly salary 152286.00. A 42% bump is 237870.73, 85,584 salary bump alone without the benefits being paid, top scale instructor take home goes from about 8300/mth to 12429/mth if they pay the benefits or 11400ish if they don’t. Worst case an increase of 3000 per month in take home pay.
Of course 42% at the bottom make less of a difference but none the less a decent increase in take home either way.

[cdnavater]

the issues is the lack of experienced new candidates. Top scale captain are ok, dont need to waster bargaining power right now on that. Noone at this stage will leave anyway.

That’s the problem, the company holds that exact view, so respectfully we need to make sure all Jazz pilots are included in any improvements!

Yeah, having tasted a B scale at Jazz, i cant see this happening

The last couple rounds of improvements removed that, so it’s old news, everyone is on the same scale!
Without ALPA holding their ground the improvements were only going to starting pay and more for instructors to entice more pilots to the department, that’s it!
As an instructor at the time, I fully and completely supported the negotiators to improve all pilots lives even though I could have had a raise, so this senior pilot screwing the junior pilot crap needs to go away!

[Shark]

I was always surprised that the team doing the negotiations are not professional negotiators employed by ALPA. Sure have Pilot representatives in the room but not doing the actual negotiations.

I hear this a lot. I can assure you that you are better off with pilot negotiators supported by negotiators/lawyers rather than the other way around. Professional negotiators will always get you a deal, but they don't need to work under that contract and will spend all their time convincing you what's good for you.

Examples of your argument please. Do other unions send their membership to run the negotiations?

[Bede]

Certainly.

Other unions, like CUPE, (I'm a CUPE member through our volunteer fire department*) have a lawyer and the provincial union president negotiate with one member representative present. They get what they get and convince you, the membership, that it's a good deal. Many unions negotiate this way. You're much better off having the MEC providing a mandate to pilot negotiators, who negotiate on your behalf with a Labour Relations Counsel assist.

*Long story but the volunteer fire fighters are in the same unit as all the paid municipal employees.

[hithere]

ACA Chair and Vice Chair just resigned

[Dry Guy]

Thank you for a job almost well done.

[flyinhigh]

To anyone on here who is bitching about the job Charlene did, it’s time to put your money where your mouth is and step up.

Seems everyone here could have done better, so step up and walk that line in 3 years time. Find out what it means to represent the pilot group.

Well done Charlene,

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

To anyone on here who is bitching about the job Charlene did, it’s time to put your money where your mouth is and step up.

Seems everyone here could have done better, so step up and walk that line in 3 years time. Find out what it means to represent the pilot group.

Well done Charlene,

This is literally the definition of "false cause fallacy".

All members have a right to criticize leadership particularly after a rather divisive ratification process. It is false equivalence to say that you can't be critical because you won't be the next MEC Chair.

At the same time, no one is saying she didn't try her best or put her all into this. It was a rather tragic turn of events. I think we all appreciate her heart & courage but no leader's reign is forever.

Best thing moving forward is to rally behind the new leadership to get more gains.

[FelixGustof]

To anyone on here who is bitching about the job Charlene did, it’s time to put your money where your mouth is and step up.

Seems everyone here could have done better, so step up and walk that line in 3 years time. Find out what it means to represent the pilot group.

Well done Charlene,

Are AC Pilots not allowed to be critical of their great leaders?

Is ALPA Air Canada like a cult?

[alkaseltzer]

Thank you for a job almost well done.

Names. Many people want the names of those who were behind this distasteful resolution. Some are obvious from the chats.

Are meeting minutes available?

[Chateau]

Thank you for a job almost well done.

Names. Many people want the names of those who were behind this distasteful resolution. Some are obvious from the chats.

Are meeting minutes available?

Names? Why? You going to meet them in the parking lot? Vandalize their cars?

Track down all the yes voters too?

The motions passed in YYZ & YVR through the ALPA process. By like 80% yes I heard

[Dry Guy]

Thank you for a job almost well done.

Names. Many people want the names of those who were behind this distasteful resolution. Some are obvious from the chats.

Are meeting minutes available?

They held an anonymous survey of the entire membership. If you want to know how people really feel let them speak anonymously without social pressure of not being mean to a girl or whatever.

[altiplano]

Now that it's done, it's time to move on.

But the motions were bullshit and it wasn't 80%.
YYZ was something like 47 - 45 on the vote and the Yea vote was mostly made up of proxies. Most of the people actually in the room voted against the motion.

If you actually canvassed the membership you will find little support for this.

But it's done. Whoever wanted to stir this up, better step up, and we had all better hope that it isn't old ACPA company kiss-asses trying to get their fingers back in the pie.

We'll find out Friday afternoon what the new face of this MEC will be.

[30westpirate]

What a BS process, why not put it through a vote for the entire membership to decide.