WJ flt. 54 lands and takes off rwy 13 at YYJ

[crazy_aviator]

I think today, im going to defend the monkey !
North Bay Ontario ,,,11000 ft runway ,,either mechanical or pilot error caused the plane to go off the end of the runway ,,,what if the runway was 9000 feet long ,,how many injuries/deaths then ? IF i was in the westjet plane with a wife and 4 kids I would want the PILOT to use the LONGEST runway for the take-off and BRING the most fuel for the flight and get plenty of sleep the day before ETC ETC !! YES, ive done intersection take-offs and ive flown into conditions and done things that would make MOST pilots think im NUTS. BUT when i carry passengers,, im Mr. Safety man. Pilots have just enough ego and intellect to make them dangerous !!!!! Monkey, im on your side ! I used to live in Castlegar BC and 737 s use that 5000 foot runway often with poor approaches BUT that is the ONLY runway !!

[Squid]

Rebel said:

I can safely conclude that you are not among the WJ professional pilots that I was referring too. Political spays is that an expression coined by WJ? Is TC aware of this new WJ de-icing criteria and terminology? It’s been approved of course? The cost of a spray is peanuts compared to the PR damage that you folks are doing to the WJ image. The cost of an accident, priceless..

I for one would never allow any folks that I know to fly WJ some of you folks are down right scary.

I say:
We wrote the book on most airline incidents and accidents in Canada. Think of the great Cincinnati videos, Fredericton etc. Rebel you are throwing BIG stones in a glass house you idiot. Why don't you and Tony go massage each others dicks before you walk into something else. Every debate you look like an ass. We've killed people. You are scary dude.


Cod Father said:
So if thats the case, I wonder if Air Canada can get an RJ 200/700/705 in and out of YQF as is?

I say:
We got an RJ into Fredericton easy!

[jjj]

Crazy,

What does the Jazz CYYB thing have o do with Westjet/fuel/and a runway choice - I don't understand the point of your post.

BTW, and more so the impetus for this post - proper decision making is independent of whether or not you have passengers on board. Please do not fly over my home when you are f-ing around.

[crazy_aviator]

jjj , things in this world arent always cut and dried ! Would YOU take your 6 yr old daughter in the "back" seat of your dune buggy for the Baja 1000 race ? NO, There is eleated risk there and you would weigh the consequenses. How many airshow pilots perform with their wife/husband in the back seat ? SMS etc is about managing risk AND evaluating it , NOT about making everything identical and totally risk free. North Bay is an example of using a LONG runway and JUST making it . If you want to be a hotshot pilot in a B737 and use a 5000 ft runway in the same conditions with 140 pax BECAUSE it is approved, then you throw wisdom and prudence out the window !

[jjj]

Crazy,

Your analogy is lost on me but that's ok.

Sir, I will land my 737 on a 5000 foot runway when it is the only available choice and the ACARS uplinked landing data tells me that the given conditions are satisfactory.

As a professional it is my prerogative to add what ever extra buffer I deem necessary for that day. When all requirements are satisfied I will launch.

The North Bay incident has absolutely nothing to do with the choice to take 737 into a 5000 foot strip or not.

You sir, do not know what you are talking about and I do not believe you are type rated on the 37 or are privy to the applicable performance tables. You sir, do not know what kind of buffer there is in your example of 140 pax.

Crazy Aviator, you are not qualified to criticize me.

[Four1oh]

this thread is 2 1/2 years old... why?

[jjj]

'cuz I'm still feeling scrappy after tearing apart I AM BIRDDOG last week.

I better watch it or this thread will get locked.

[B-rad]

Hmmm!An aircraft safely lands and departs from a suitable runway...I too would like to know the reason for this??Someone needs to answer up!!

LOL

I cant believe this thread even got this many responses.. nothing on TV I guess.

[Flying Nutcracker]

I am sorry... I just can't believe the stuff that gets posted here sometimes! It was a simple question about the event of using a 5000 foot runway being 1) challenging, and 2) why use a shorter runway than the longest one... was it not!?!?!?!

Yes... a 5000' runway would be a challenge, but not in a safety compromising way. Why, I don't know but the mention of a notam regarding closure of 09/27 would make sense to me.

Is it a "cowboy'ish" thing to take off in a A340, fully loaded, going across the Pacific for a 13 hour flight, passing the departure end at a little over 35 feet on a marginal runway, I don't know, such as 08R in YVR?

Is it a "cowboy'ish" thing to take off in a 737-800, fully loaded, passing the departure end at a little over 35 feet on a marginal runway, I don't know, such as 27 in YYJ?

Is it a "cowboy'ish" thing to take off in a 737-700, not fully loaded, passing the departure end at a little over 35 feet on a marginal runway, I don't know, such as 13 in YYJ?

How would some of you feel about the fact that when there is excessive runway length available, there most likely will be a reduced thrust takeoff increasing the takeoff distance required? Is that all of a sudden a risk factor now, because there's less "margin" to play with if there's a disaster??? Why don't we allways use full power and as much flaps as possible???

Is it "cowboy'ish" to land on a contaminated runway where the numbers come up with a 100 foot margin??? The margin is there is it not??? Is it then "cowboy'ish" to land on a dry runway where the numbers come up with a 100 foot margin???

When does flying according to numbers become a safety risk? Why do we not always land on the longest runway in YVR, YYZ, YYC, YHZ, YWG... you get the drift, and on the same token... why don't we ALWAYS take off on the longest runway???

Just because a runway is 5000 feet... doesn't mean that it isn't safe to use! Hell... we might as well get rid of the shortest runways on all the airports then...

[shankdown]

I can safely conclude that you are not among the WJ professional pilots that I was referring too. Political spays is that an expression coined by WJ? Is TC aware of this new WJ de-icing criteria and terminology? It’s been approved of course? The cost of a spray is peanuts compared to the PR damage that you folks are doing to the WJ image. The cost of an accident, priceless..

I for one would never allow any folks that I know to fly WJ some of you folks are down right scary...

Last week in YUL, we landed in -20 & light snow for a 45 min turn. Just before pushback, I went out, grabbed a ladder, climbed up to take a look at the snow that had accumulated on the wing. I put my face down near the wing, exhaled, and the snow scattered, giving way to a nice, clean, wing. Done. No de-icing for us. We'll head to the runway while the Rebel's of the world are type one & fouring it, because that snow will come off before the airspeed comes alive... which is exactly what happened. I bet if you were on board, you'd have been screaming as we went down the runway. It's people like you that generate the need for the 'political spray' that someone mentioned. Is what we did dangerous? You probably need to say it is so you can justify your own laziness by throwing your actions under the umbrella of 'safety'. Why does everyone need type four when de-icing in conditions like that? Because the type one, past it's holdover, will make your wing more contaminated then it ever was. Sometimes a dry wing at -20 is the very best type four available. So go on and tell the world WJ is unsafe. I guess when you're in the middle of watching your market share stolen by your competition, the only tool of defence you have left is to start kicking and screaming and calling us names. So, do what you gotta do. But I've been flying here a while now, and I've never seen anyone who hesitates to de-ice when it's required.

SD

[CCR]

Does taxiing onto a runway with accumulated dry snow on the wing with the anticipation that it will blow off during the initial take-off run conform to the WJ COM and CARS?

Take a look at COM Sec8-pg19 where the paragraph ends in "...and will blow off during taxi, prior takeoff."

Take a look at Cold Dry Snow on Cold Wing COM 8-25.

Take a look at AIM AIR 2.12.2 pg 396

Take a look at CARS 602.11

How do I manage it? If it's -20C, and the wind is blowing and some snow is swirling on the wing I go with no spray. Dry light snow sitting on my wing and it's -20C with no wind? It's a spray.

SD, if you are that confident what you did was correct, AQD what you did with all of the information including the part where you anticipated the snow would blow off during the initial take-off roll and see what the outcome is. If you receive no call from FS or Training and Standards then you probably met the requirements. If FS and/or Ian calls you and says differently then you will have the information required going forward to make a different decision.

Cheers!

[shankdown]

CCR,

You've responded well to my post. I hope you didn't have all of those referenced memorized!!! You were right to question that, as setting takeoff thrust with snow on the wings is a dad deal. I take a look before going into position to satisfy myself then, as I'm not staring behind me as I barrel down a runway.

My situation was a no brainer, and the thought of writing it up never crossed my mind. You definitely caught the technicality in my story that made the events in my post off-side. However, the purpose of my post was to point out that just because snow happens to be sitting on a wing at the gate, you don't automatically have to de-ice... as some people tend to do. The fact is, there was nothing on the wing as we taxiied by the de-ice bay at 25 kts. But I swear some make the decision to de-ice before they've pushed back, because they haven't taken the time (or bothered to endure the cold) to ascertain whether or not "the snow on the surface of the aircraft is of such consistency that it is not adhering and will blow off during taxi, prior to takeoff." (COM 8 pg 19).

How do I manage it? If it's -20C, and the wind is blowing and some snow is swirling on the wing I go with no spray. Dry light snow sitting on my wing and it's -20C with no wind? It's a spray.

How do I manage it? -20 with wind, etc... same as you. -20 with no wind and light snow? I go grab a ladder, and climb up to take a look. Good? No spray. Bad? Spray. Can't find a ladder or the situation is questionable? Spray.

In that situation, both the Captain and I had already determined 30 min prior to push that we didn't need to spray. 5 minutes to push back I went out to take a closer look, and I was satisfied once again. I just hear people de-icing to 'err on the side of caution'. That's probably what that AC 777 Captain woulda said a while back when I watched him taxi out of Pearson's de-ice bay with type 4 on a crystal clear day. I say 'erring on the side of caution' can get to be plain stupidity. And I don't like it when our crews get thrown under the bus by the competion for logical thinking, just because they've decided to spray. I get the feeling that sometimes the AC boys think that everyone should be doing what they're doing, and it makes me cranky! That's all from me...

SD

[tripleseven]

If 5000' is plenty of room to land a 737, what happened in YOW last year on the 8000' runway? I know a WJ FO who was giving me the gears because one of our 320's wouldn't land on 13 in YWG because of a 10 kt tailwind. I guess the skipper decided to land into the wind, like most of us were taught to do during our first dual lesson.

I can't help but think that this is part of the culture at WJ to poke fun at Air Canada, and "git'er" done as quickly as possible. Kind of reminds me of my job flying bush operator that I flew with that expanded into larger turbo-props and flew them the same as the small piston stuff.

[Flightlevels]

I haven't even read this thread, but that is the dumbest post I've read in a long time 777. Are you saying the fins with the leaf haven't had anything go wrong?....sheesh.

[Ryan Coke2]

CCR, the way you assess light snow/cold day is exactly like I do.

Shankdown, I understand what you are saying, but as CCR pointed out, your example wasn't great.

To add, I once had a long chat with a Captain who felt 'it would blow off' (similar conditions to what you described). I wasn't as convinced and long story short, after the warm fuel was pumped in the snow melted and refroze. In other words, much of the wing was loose snow that would blow off, and maybe the whole wing was before the fueling was completed.

Be very careful with 'it will blow off'. Either it IS blowing off, or I am going to get sprayed.

[tripleseven]

Yeah, it was a dumb post, to go along with all the other dumb posts here. But, you didn't answer the Ottawa question. Do I have to wait until the TSB report comes out?
And, no, I'm not saying the planes with the maple leaf have never had anything go wrong.

[CCR]

Hey SD,
there's always more to a story than what meets the eye. Thanks for clarifying. Memorized? Nope, not a genius here. Your post made me think though and that in itself is a good thing. As a Captain now, I try to find a way to the best decision through the use of the FOM and COM, my experience, my F/O's experience and thoughts, requesting clarifications and direction from Ian and Scott et al., and at the end of the day if needed following the Scott Wilson endorsed rule of thumb...."What is the most conservative course of action to follow". I get paid a great deal of money to follow the rules and in absence of direct instruction use my, and my crew's, common sense and stuff between the ears! It's not usually rocket science what we do and I'm not a test pilot...

[shankdown]

Ryan Coke2,

Ya, I've seen that happen, too. It can catch a guy off guard. That's why I make the effort to go out just before push back, grab a ladder if it's there, and go make the top half of a snow angel on the wing to see for myself. If I can't do that to verify it's gonna be clean (this time I'll say) when we hit taxi speed , it's off to the CDF. But that's the risk of posting on here... you can do the same thing that, given the exact context, most others would do, and you'll still come out looking like a cowboy if you're not careful how you describe it. I'm hardly a cowboy, nor do I give 2 sheits about the cost of de-ice fluid. The FOM & COM have 'lets' in there to allow us to use common sense while on the job, regarding de-icing. If they want to remove them, they'll say: "De-ice with Type 1 & 4 when it's snowing, regardless of whether or not it's adhering." I'll use those lets when I operate if it's safe and logical to do so. If the guy beside me disagrees, and thinks it's questionable... no skin off my back. We'll do it his way.

CCR,

From now on, I best be typing out my little stories on here with all of my little manuals handy

SD

[Ryan Coke2]

Fair enough SD, the devil is always in the details.

And in the same vein as what you are trying to get across, I made a post in another thread about how there are times when I spray and others don't and times when I don't spray and others do. Ultimately as long as we are all doing everything we can to ensure our guests safety, and we can answer for everything we do in good conscience, then we are doing a good job.

[Flying Nutcracker]

It's interesting how many times people will comment on what other people do without knowing exactly why they are doing what they are doing... maybe there is some logic, common sense and above all else... a NEED to do what they are doing... or maybe NO NEED to do what others are doing...

The conservative route is one that usually will keep everybody safe. I like that rhule of tumb! Just too bad other people will keep commenting on my actions when I am just doing that... you just can't win in this society of "know-it-alls" I guess...

[FICU]

A ladder and a sweep of the hand or blowing on the leading edge of the wing doesn't tell the full story with the wing covered in dry snow, especially if you have taken on fuel and filled the wings... as it has already been pointed out above.

[aroundthewing]

Shankdown,
is tactile test in your manual? You didn't mention it!

[jjj]

Tactile checks are in the manual.

[Rotten Apple #1]

edited for brevity

[jjj]

Oops.

Post edited.

Thanx.