Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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sicamore
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by sicamore »

Blackdog0301 wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:31 pm
digits_ wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 8:32 pm
Blackdog0301 wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:53 pm

I tend to agree with you cdn. No pilot with less than 1500 hours knows their own limits yet, nevermind a captain that's never flown with them before. I'm fairly certain that Sunwing even had barriers set up for these pilots and captain's were used to flying with low time FO's. Westjet captain's have not, and for the most part have only flown with FO's with significantly more experience. If you're a captain flying with an FO with only a CPL and an unverified number of hours landing in 20G30 knots on a wet 6000 foot runway, are you really wanting to find out their limits under those conditions? I certainly wouldn't! This is new territory for Westjet, and a necessary piece of information for captains. Pilots with only a CPL can not and should not be treated as an equal pilot when it comes to challenging conditions when they only make up 5% or less of FOs
Do you interview every FO you fly with to see if they match your personal preferences? Do you need to see their resume before closing the door?
If they have been flying the airplane type for 3 years, what does it matter if hey hold an ATPL or a CPL? If you notice after 2 sectors they seem to know what they are doing, why treat them differently based on a piece of paper that is not legally required?
If the FO has more experience than you, do you swap seats?

This is an absolute non issue that should not be abused by people that feel slighted by a fellow pilot for something that happened that they can not control.

When a captain pulls up their schedule, they will immediately see that they only have a CPL. You don't need to ask them or interview them. You'll already know. Now you have to decide... Which leg do you let them fly? Do you let them have the YYZ-YYC leg where the weather is good, daylight, long runways? Or do you let them fly the YYC-PSP leg with gusty winds and a turbulent approach, an airport they've never flown into, where ATC always keeps you high, and then slamdunks you onto a visual approach? It doesn't take a genius to decide.

I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience as a sub-1500 hour pilot to complain about when the captain let's you fly or doesn't let you fly. You've got a job. Enjoy it. And in your off time, study for your exams, write them, rent a 152,get your PIC and night cross country in, and get the friggin licence! If you don't like it and want to go your whole career with a CPL, go work somewhere that hires CPL pilots! Because you now have a job that no other CPL pilot in the country can get.
Appreciate the reminder—I've only got mid-20,000 hours, so it's helpful to finally get some real-world wisdom from someone who clearly understands how to evaluate a pilot’s soul by glancing at three letters on their license.

Honestly, every time I fly with someone sub-15,000 hours now, I just pull up their license, gasp audibly, and immediately assign them legs based on whether the approach involves sunlight and emotional support puppies. Who needs CRM when you've got clairvoyance, right?

And of course, I always remind those junior FOs: “You’ve got a job, be grateful, now rent a 152 and go get the friggin license like it’s 1992 and we’re all still logging night cross-country in Cessnas on paper maps.”

Thanks again for your guidance. I’ll be sure to keep sorting pilots by acronyms instead of actual performance.

— A humble 20k+ dinosaur who clearly needs to get with the times
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sicamore
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by sicamore »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 9:10 am.

But why am i arguing with you. I almost forgot that most boomers are hardcore bootlickers.
Imagine thinking you're the hero of the story while casually slinging ageist slurs-congrats, you're just another bigot with a keyboard.
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cdnavater
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by cdnavater »

sicamore wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:27 pm
cdnavater wrote: Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:17 pm In the US, you don’t fly a 705 equivalent aircraft without an ATPL, so those airline pilots are not dealing with this!
AC doesn’t hire without, not entirely sure about AT but we know Sunwing, Jazz, PAL, Encore and a couple smaller companies but that’s hardly 90% of the airline pilots!
I didn't realize the rest of the known world didn't have airline pilots
Had a few sooooo, we are in North America talking about a Canadian airline who has never had low time FOs, the other poster said 90% of airline pilots deal with this, they don’t!
I don’t give a shit about the rest of the known world, they have adapted much like my company had to when all that was applying was instructors, mmmm k!
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Handover
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by Handover »

cdnavater wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 8:44 pm Had a few sooooo, we are in North America talking about a Canadian airline who has never had low time FOs, the other poster said 90% of airline pilots deal with this, they don’t!
I don’t give a shit about the rest of the known world, they have adapted much like my company had to when all that was applying was instructors, mmmm k!
If more people here gave a shit about the rest of the world, maybe we could share some T&C with other pilots in the rest of the world instead of Canadian aviation being the pond sucking industry it is.

"Mmmm k!"??? Is this how you talk in the cockpit? Or when you ar back in your grade five classroom after checkout?
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Tbayer2021
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by Tbayer2021 »

sicamore wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:48 pm
Tbayer2021 wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 9:10 am.

But why am i arguing with you. I almost forgot that most boomers are hardcore bootlickers.
Imagine thinking you're the hero of the story while casually slinging ageist slurs-congrats, you're just another bigot with a keyboard.
Notice I said "most". Like everything else in life, there are always exceptions. But if one takes insult with what I said........

Constantly shit on the younger generation every chance they get while immediately getting insulted when they have the audacity to talk back.
- Another boomer defining characteristic.
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sicamore
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by sicamore »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 8:36 am
sicamore wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:48 pm
Tbayer2021 wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 9:10 am.

But why am i arguing with you. I almost forgot that most boomers are hardcore bootlickers.
Imagine thinking you're the hero of the story while casually slinging ageist slurs-congrats, you're just another bigot with a keyboard.
Notice I said "most". Like everything else in life, there are always exceptions. But if one takes insult with what I said........

Constantly shit on the younger generation every chance they get while immediately getting insulted when they have the audacity to talk back.
- Another boomer defining characteristic.
You spend way too much time on TikTok, bud—real life isn’t that dramatic. I’m not a boomer, and I don’t know a single one who acts like the cartoon villains in your head.

Also, a bigot is someone who unfairly hates or stereotypes an entire group—like you just did
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cdnavater
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by cdnavater »

Handover wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 8:25 am
cdnavater wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 8:44 pm Had a few sooooo, we are in North America talking about a Canadian airline who has never had low time FOs, the other poster said 90% of airline pilots deal with this, they don’t!
I don’t give a shit about the rest of the known world, they have adapted much like my company had to when all that was applying was instructors, mmmm k!
If more people here gave a shit about the rest of the world, maybe we could share some T&C with other pilots in the rest of the world instead of Canadian aviation being the pond sucking industry it is.

"Mmmm k!"??? Is this how you talk in the cockpit? Or when you ar back in your grade five classroom after checkout?
Like I said, I had a few, when is the last time you had a few in the cockpit!?
We are talking about an airline that until maybe 5 or so years ago you needed 5000 hours of decent experience to get hired, even now it is ATPL minimum but the cadets who WJ pilots are not used to working with, snuck in through a back door!
It is reasonable to be able to know in advance that you are potentially working with a lower experience pilot, WJ will know doubt come up with something to address the issue but many airline place restrictions on pilots until they get some time on type, not sure why this is a big deal!
As for WJ making them get an ATPL at least written, well they can place whatever hiring policy they want as long as it doesn’t discriminate against, well you know something you have no control over, skin colour, gender, etc. if every pilot before them required it, it would be hard to argue against it and for Christ sake I wish TC would just make it their policy.
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sicamore
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by sicamore »

cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:18 am
Handover wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 8:25 am
cdnavater wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 8:44 pm Had a few sooooo, we are in North America talking about a Canadian airline who has never had low time FOs, the other poster said 90% of airline pilots deal with this, they don’t!
I don’t give a shit about the rest of the known world, they have adapted much like my company had to when all that was applying was instructors, mmmm k!
If more people here gave a shit about the rest of the world, maybe we could share some T&C with other pilots in the rest of the world instead of Canadian aviation being the pond sucking industry it is.

"Mmmm k!"??? Is this how you talk in the cockpit? Or when you ar back in your grade five classroom after checkout?
Like I said, I had a few, when is the last time you had a few in the cockpit!?
We are talking about an airline that until maybe 5 or so years ago you needed 5000 hours of decent experience to get hired, even now it is ATPL minimum but the cadets who WJ pilots are not used to working with, snuck in through a back door!
It is reasonable to be able to know in advance that you are potentially working with a lower experience pilot, WJ will know doubt come up with something to address the issue but many airline place restrictions on pilots until they get some time on type, not sure why this is a big deal!
As for WJ making them get an ATPL at least written, well they can place whatever hiring policy they want as long as it doesn’t discriminate against, well you know something you have no control over, skin colour, gender, etc. if every pilot before them required it, it would be hard to argue against it and for Christ sake I wish TC would just make it their policy.
I personally agree with the sentiment that 121 operators should restrict to ATPL. However in this case, all these cadets were hired by Sunwing. I doubt any of them wanted to go to WestJet, they certainly weren't given the choice. This is a one off, and this whole discussion is moot.

You're pissing in the wind mate. Do you even work for WestJet?
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by cdnavater »

sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:27 am
cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:18 am
Handover wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 8:25 am

If more people here gave a shit about the rest of the world, maybe we could share some T&C with other pilots in the rest of the world instead of Canadian aviation being the pond sucking industry it is.

"Mmmm k!"??? Is this how you talk in the cockpit? Or when you ar back in your grade five classroom after checkout?
Like I said, I had a few, when is the last time you had a few in the cockpit!?
We are talking about an airline that until maybe 5 or so years ago you needed 5000 hours of decent experience to get hired, even now it is ATPL minimum but the cadets who WJ pilots are not used to working with, snuck in through a back door!
It is reasonable to be able to know in advance that you are potentially working with a lower experience pilot, WJ will know doubt come up with something to address the issue but many airline place restrictions on pilots until they get some time on type, not sure why this is a big deal!
As for WJ making them get an ATPL at least written, well they can place whatever hiring policy they want as long as it doesn’t discriminate against, well you know something you have no control over, skin colour, gender, etc. if every pilot before them required it, it would be hard to argue against it and for Christ sake I wish TC would just make it their policy.
I personally agree with the sentiment that 121 operators should restrict to ATPL. However in this case, all these cadets were hired by Sunwing. I doubt any of them wanted to go to WestJet, they certainly weren't given the choice. This is a one off, and this whole discussion is moot.

You're pissing in the wind mate. Do you even work for WestJet?
No I don’t work for WJ but I do see why they would want to identify who has or doesn’t have an ATPL, I’ve worked with many low time pilots and anyone who says it doesn’t increase your workload is outright lying! Going to work with an experienced pilot is far more enjoyable than “mentoring” low time pilots, no question!
As for the exam written or not, I don’t care, it doesn’t change the experience level one bit!
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Tbayer2021
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by Tbayer2021 »

sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:14 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 8:36 am
sicamore wrote: Tue Apr 29, 2025 7:48 pm

Imagine thinking you're the hero of the story while casually slinging ageist slurs-congrats, you're just another bigot with a keyboard.
Notice I said "most". Like everything else in life, there are always exceptions. But if one takes insult with what I said........

Constantly shit on the younger generation every chance they get while immediately getting insulted when they have the audacity to talk back.
- Another boomer defining characteristic.
You spend way too much time on TikTok, bud—real life isn’t that dramatic. I’m not a boomer, and I don’t know a single one who acts like the cartoon villains in your head.

Also, a bigot is someone who unfairly hates or stereotypes an entire group—like you just did
Assuming anyone younger spends too much time on social media. Wow, you're 2 for 2 on the stereotypes.
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onspeed
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by onspeed »

Interesting thread.

I understand the apprehension with some of the lower time pilots. Do most captains not take the hard leg if there is going to be poor conditions? Ie YYT when its storming. I do and its not against my fo, just mitigating risk. Certainly under 95% of sectors the conditions are usually fine and i have no concerns. That being said im sure all companies have their share of "lifeitme" fo's who will need to be managed to an extent.

At WG there are different types of cadets, first few years the came primarily from colleges, later it was more of a term used for lower time pilot (less than 1500 hrs), not necessarily hired from a college. Like everything in life the ones who went through the college programs tend to be strong, a bunch would be captains by now had WG continued without a merger.
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digits_
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by digits_ »

onspeed wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 11:08 am Do most captains not take the hard leg if there is going to be poor conditions? Ie YYT when its storming. I do and its not against my fo, just mitigating risk.
Does that mitigate risk? Perhaps on the scale of the one flight, but it results in FOs not being exposed to those conditions. That's the weak spot as well with companies that impose limits on FO flying. Let's say, random examples, the airplane/captains are limited to 40 kt crosswind, and the FOs are limited to 25kts. That means that the first time the junior pilot will be flying in a 30 kt crosswind, will be as a captain. Would it, in a broader point of view, not make more sense to let FOs land in any of those conditions, while the safety net of the captain is still there?

This is not aimed at the Sunwing/Westjet discussion, but I do find it a very interesting statement.
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sicamore
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by sicamore »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 10:00 am
sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:14 am
Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 8:36 am

Notice I said "most". Like everything else in life, there are always exceptions. But if one takes insult with what I said........

Constantly shit on the younger generation every chance they get while immediately getting insulted when they have the audacity to talk back.
- Another boomer defining characteristic.
You spend way too much time on TikTok, bud—real life isn’t that dramatic. I’m not a boomer, and I don’t know a single one who acts like the cartoon villains in your head.

Also, a bigot is someone who unfairly hates or stereotypes an entire group—like you just did
Assuming anyone younger spends too much time on social media. Wow, you're 2 for 2 on the stereotypes.
Not a boomer, champ. Never assumed you were younger. For all I know you are older than me. But anyone who talks like you either thinks “stereotype” means “mostly true” or never made it past emotional puberty. You were judged on your words, not an impossible to diagnose gauge of age.
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Last edited by sicamore on Wed Apr 30, 2025 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sicamore
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by sicamore »

cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:45 am
sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:27 am
cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:18 am

Like I said, I had a few, when is the last time you had a few in the cockpit!?
We are talking about an airline that until maybe 5 or so years ago you needed 5000 hours of decent experience to get hired, even now it is ATPL minimum but the cadets who WJ pilots are not used to working with, snuck in through a back door!
It is reasonable to be able to know in advance that you are potentially working with a lower experience pilot, WJ will know doubt come up with something to address the issue but many airline place restrictions on pilots until they get some time on type, not sure why this is a big deal!
As for WJ making them get an ATPL at least written, well they can place whatever hiring policy they want as long as it doesn’t discriminate against, well you know something you have no control over, skin colour, gender, etc. if every pilot before them required it, it would be hard to argue against it and for Christ sake I wish TC would just make it their policy.
I personally agree with the sentiment that 121 operators should restrict to ATPL. However in this case, all these cadets were hired by Sunwing. I doubt any of them wanted to go to WestJet, they certainly weren't given the choice. This is a one off, and this whole discussion is moot.

You're pissing in the wind mate. Do you even work for WestJet?
No I don’t work for WJ but I do see why they would want to identify who has or doesn’t have an ATPL, I’ve worked with many low time pilots and anyone who says it doesn’t increase your workload is outright lying! Going to work with an experienced pilot is far more enjoyable than “mentoring” low time pilots, no question!
As for the exam written or not, I don’t care, it doesn’t change the experience level one bit!
Every captain already gets what you’re saying—you’re not breaking new ground, and let’s be honest, the real punchline is that someone once had to mentor you. Imagine the patience that took. Lucky for WestJet, they won't have to return the favour.
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cdnavater
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by cdnavater »

sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 1:27 pm
cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:45 am
sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:27 am

I personally agree with the sentiment that 121 operators should restrict to ATPL. However in this case, all these cadets were hired by Sunwing. I doubt any of them wanted to go to WestJet, they certainly weren't given the choice. This is a one off, and this whole discussion is moot.

You're pissing in the wind mate. Do you even work for WestJet?
No I don’t work for WJ but I do see why they would want to identify who has or doesn’t have an ATPL, I’ve worked with many low time pilots and anyone who says it doesn’t increase your workload is outright lying! Going to work with an experienced pilot is far more enjoyable than “mentoring” low time pilots, no question!
As for the exam written or not, I don’t care, it doesn’t change the experience level one bit!
Every captain already gets what you’re saying—you’re not breaking new ground, and let’s be honest, the real punchline is that someone once had to mentor you. Imagine the patience that took. Lucky for WestJet, they won't have to return the favour.
Actually, I flew 200 hours as FO before I started building multi-PIC, flying as medevac Captain on a pressurized twin at 800 TT with fresh out of school FOs, CP of the same company the day my ATPL was signed off at 1600TT, went to 705 at 6000 of which 5600 was multi-PIC. I’m sure my mentors must of dreaded flying with me, you know because I was so inexperienced!
There’s a reason I’m in the training department, I stopped enjoying the flying because it was way too much work!
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sicamore
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by sicamore »

cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 2:21 pm Actually, I flew 200 hours as FO before I started building multi-PIC, flying as medevac Captain on a pressurized twin at 800 TT with fresh out of school FOs, CP of the same company the day my ATPL was signed off at 1600TT, went to 705 at 6000 of which 5600 was multi-PIC. I’m sure my mentors must of dreaded flying with me, you know because I was so inexperienced!
There’s a reason I’m in the training department, I stopped enjoying the flying because it was way too much work!
"here's my resume, now please validate me". Sounds like you've done it all-except maybe learn some humility. No one asked for your life story, professor. You must work at Jazz if you think that is experience
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by cdnavater »

sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 3:15 pm
cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 2:21 pm Actually, I flew 200 hours as FO before I started building multi-PIC, flying as medevac Captain on a pressurized twin at 800 TT with fresh out of school FOs, CP of the same company the day my ATPL was signed off at 1600TT, went to 705 at 6000 of which 5600 was multi-PIC. I’m sure my mentors must of dreaded flying with me, you know because I was so inexperienced!
There’s a reason I’m in the training department, I stopped enjoying the flying because it was way too much work!
"here's my resume, now please validate me". Sounds like you've done it all-except maybe learn some humility. No one asked for your life story, professor. You must work at Jazz if you think that is experience
Yes validate me, you’re the dick who took a potshot at me about someone needing patience to mentor me, I was pointing out when I started 20 years ago, I already had tons of experience and was not really mentored, came up the hard way in the bush!
I’m done swinging my dick around but I will say, I’m usually a pretty humble guy, never done learning and I like to impart that to new pilots coming up.
This whole thing is about WJ pilots who have never had to fly with inexperienced pilots, the mentoring was just showing the airplane, now it’s hand holding and babysitting! They will need something in place in writing, weather and wind restrictions until 500 on type, that takes the feelings away from the decision to take over a leg or just the landing.
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by Tbayer2021 »

sicamore wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 3:15 pm
cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 2:21 pm Actually, I flew 200 hours as FO before I started building multi-PIC, flying as medevac Captain on a pressurized twin at 800 TT with fresh out of school FOs, CP of the same company the day my ATPL was signed off at 1600TT, went to 705 at 6000 of which 5600 was multi-PIC. I’m sure my mentors must of dreaded flying with me, you know because I was so inexperienced!
There’s a reason I’m in the training department, I stopped enjoying the flying because it was way too much work!
"here's my resume, now please validate me". Sounds like you've done it all-except maybe learn some humility. No one asked for your life story, professor. You must work at Jazz if you think that is experience
"Derision is only ok when I do it" - You're 3/3. Keep it up!
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Handover
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by Handover »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 3:56 pm "Derision is only ok when I do it" - You're 3/3. Keep it up!
Decision?
"Constantly shit on the younger generation every chance they get while immediately getting insulted when they have the audacity to talk back.
- Another boomer defining characteristic
You add so much value

.This whole topic doesn’t affect anyone outside WestJet, but here you all are, still swinging at ghosts.

At this point, you're just here to hear your own opinions echoed back at you. Typical avCanada wonk behavior.
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by Tbayer2021 »

Handover wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:24 pm
Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 3:56 pm "Derision is only ok when I do it" - You're 3/3. Keep it up!
Decision?
"Constantly shit on the younger generation every chance they get while immediately getting insulted when they have the audacity to talk back.
- Another boomer defining characteristic
You add so much value

.This whole topic doesn’t affect anyone outside WestJet, but here you all are, still swinging at ghosts.

At this point, you're just here to hear your own opinions echoed back at you. Typical avCanada wonk behavior.
Here's another opinion. You should pick up a dictionary if you're not sure what derision means.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

As a captain : do you guys ask the FO…. “Are you CPL or ATPL?”

No. You don’t. Work as a team, it doesn’t matter the experience. Whoever is beside you, he/she’s qualified to be there
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Handover
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by Handover »

Tbayer2021 wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:33 pm Here's another opinion. You should pick up a dictionary if you're not sure what derision means.
Derision is the act of mocking, ridiculing, or expressing contempt toward someone or something. In this case, the statement uses sarcasm and scorn to belittle a group (baby boomers), suggesting they are hypocritical and overly sensitive. The phrase “constantly shit on” is intentionally vulgar and dismissive, and “defining characteristic” sarcastically generalizes a negative trait to an entire generation.

So yes—this is a clear example of derisive language. As others have pointed out, it also strays into bigotry—the blanket contempt of a group based solely on age.
Tbayer2021 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:44 pm
I get a chuckle every time a boomer seizes the opportunity to shit on Millennials. Apparently we're living rent free in their heads 24/7. At least thats somewhere we can afford it.
You’ve been posting these kinds of generational slurs since you joined. Just curious—do you say this kind of thing to boomers in real life, or only when you're safely behind a keyboard?
Because taking cheap shots at an entire demographic online, knowing there's no real consequence, is the very definition of cowardice.

What exactly are you contributing to Canadian aviation by doing this—other than hostility?
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Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by eyebrow737 »

cdnavater wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 3:49 pm I’m done swinging my dick around but I will say, I’m usually a pretty humble guy
Don't you work at Jazz? You're swinging 2 inches around bud.
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North Shore
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Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Straight outta Dundarave...

Re: Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

Post by North Shore »

Ok, we're getting to insults and rulers, so i think that we've reached the end here..
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