Where are they now on the list?

ettw · Post by **ettw** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:56 pm

Well as has been posted elsewhere, the money is not great to start but it seems like after 2 years...how does that song go...."I'm in the money...I'm in the money...". So I guess a longer term view would be the correct one if you have the desire to do this sort of flying.

What I intended when I posted above (and I apologize for the language but I was really, really pissed off), was to remind those people who have arrived at AC that they are really in a great position and to remember what it was like when they were working their way up and to be just a little bit thankful for their luck.

Part of me wishes that I could enjoy flying at AC because the money and aircraft are unbeatable, if that's your gig.

And don't interpret my rant above to suggest that I don't agree with looking out for number 1 but just try to keep your feet firmly planted in common sense and "reasonableness".

Cheers,

ETTW

iaflyguy · Post by **iaflyguy** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:35 pm

I'll bet that Milton is reading this and pissing his pants with glee! The more we pilots fight with each other the easier it will be for him to screw us all over again in 2009.
It doesn't matter what plane we're flying, for what company or how long we've been there ... if we don't get together with a common goal, we'll all lose!!!

yellow donkey · Post by **yellow donkey** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:15 pm

Back to the original Q.... Has anyone from a Jazz hire date of 01.2006 been called yet?

YD

GearBay Overheat · Post by **GearBay Overheat** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:46 pm

They better not have.

They've barely started the December 05 Class.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:32 pm

Has anybody from the October or November courses heard back from AC about doing the medical or whether they were successful or not?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:20 pm

Dizzy wrote:
AirbusDriver wrote:For new hires here the jazz pay is a real spit in the face that wont be forgotten.
Disclaimer: If you're not a sarcasm fan, please skip to the next paragraph.

Honestly, is this what you picture when a Jazz pilot interviewed:
Interview Board "What are your salary expectations?"
Jazz Pilot "Well, I want to work here, but that starting salary is kind of low. What do you say you give me an extra ten thousand a year until formula pay kicks in?"
Interview Board "Well, I don't know... is that fair to our other new hires?"
Jazz Pilot "Well screw everyone else. I'm sick and tired of only Original Air Canada pilots and Canadian pilots fighting. I want to open a second front in this fractured workplace."
Interview Board "Okay, consider it done."

.

This why I no longer hang out on this site. 99% pure bullshit is all I ever read here.

LOU 18 was negotiated long before CAIL started slipping below the horizon. A pilot at Jazz is worth more than an "off the street guy" or a military guy because he has been a part of the team adding to the companies bottom line. Anybody being interviewed over the past decade was informed of this policy and if they don't like it, they don't have to take the job. Will the whining ever stop..??????

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:21 am

"APPLAUSE"!!!!!!! You nailed it JS!!!

Handsome B. Wonderful · Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:24 am

Best...Avatar...Ever...

yellow donkey · Post by **yellow donkey** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:32 am

Anyone from Jan 06 been called yet?

YD

typo · Post by **typo** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:25 am

Anyone have any info on what the new questions are for the interview, and where they are on the list?
cheers

JZA · Post by **JZA** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:48 pm

They are still working on the Dec05 class

typo · Post by **typo** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:46 am

Anyone have an interview call yet? Where are they on the list? C YA!

Obbie · Post by **Obbie** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:52 am

Anybody interview in the last week of November 06, at mainline ?

If so, have you heard anything yet ?

Approaching 4 months now and no word either way so far.

Would like to call but, maybe better to just sit and wait.

I guess no news is still good news.

spaz · Post by **spaz** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:11 pm

It doesn't matter guys. ACPA and ALPA are approaching the company this month to get approval to put anyone hired after April or May this year onto a third list behind all of the current Jazz and AC pilots. Your Jazz number will be higher than whatever number you would get at AC if you were successful. Of course, we're hoping management tells them to get bent.

Obbie · Post by **Obbie** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:28 pm

...Ok.....

And we would be who ........?

Even if you are on the street....the end of the divide and reduce pay
situation that exists now is in everyones long term interests.

You need to start looking a little farther down the runway spaz.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:37 pm

Short term pain, long term gain. This is the only way to help repair some of the damage done to our industry, and help insure long term health.

spaz · Post by **spaz** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:40 pm

'We' are those who stand to immediately be affected by the changing of senority number awarding despite the fact that global solutions is a long way off. Ask the ACPA and ALPA MEC's, they'll tell you that there is a huge amount of problems to be solved before GS happens, and they haven't figured any of it out yet. They are changing sen# awarding as a first step, despite the fact that this probably will not happen.

I doubt anyone is looking farther ahead, or has given this more thought than me, Obbie. I sure hope you're not asking me to believe that you would give up 1200 senority numbers for the good of the team even if it has a 10% chance of really affecting anything.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:58 pm

spaz wrote: I doubt anyone is looking farther ahead, or has given this more thought than me, Obbie. I sure hope you're not asking me to believe that you would give up 1200 senority numbers for the good of the team even if it has a 10% chance of really affecting anything.

Spaz, at some point this has to happen, why not now? I would give up 1200's because I can see past the next year or so, this is a good thing even for the Jazz guys that will go BOTL. Sure it will take some getting used to, but everyone will adjust. No one will lose their seat, or a take a pay cut, so why the worries?

spaz · Post by **spaz** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:31 pm

You guys are missing the point. If you could come to me and say "spaz, if you withdraw your application to AC and let this slide, GS will happen.", then we would have something to talk about.

The fact is, the more probable scenario is that we don't get our numbers, GS fumbles along for a while, maybe the threat of it helps with '09 negots, but the perfect solution never materializes. Among other hurdles, although the demographic is changing, the old AC guys still don't want anything to do with the regionals, we'd have to see an end to the AO lawsuit, and management would have to approve the whole thing. I think in an ideal world, ALPA represents everyone, we negotiate a single pay scale and one set of working conditions for everyone. Imagine the barganing power! Pilots in control of working conditions like we've never been.

If you're management, why would you approve these changes to the ACPA CA? Ever since bankruptcy protection they've been trying to split everything up like never before, not encourage bringing anything together. Do I help change their mind by not going to AC in case GS passes? No.

Wouldn't a more productive approach be to form a committee for ALPA to be present in ACPA's '09 negotiations and ACPA to be present in ALPA's '09 negotiations? That would provide some really tangible benifits for everyone and be a real first step that is totally achievable without opening CA's. Management wouldn't even have a say in the matter. Unions decide it, it's done.

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:59 am

Having said all that. Are they still interviewing Jazz pilots ? Or what can those who are waiting for their interview call to expect ?

spaz · Post by **spaz** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:52 am

Still interviewing.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:10 pm

spaz wrote:
If you're management, why would you approve these changes to the ACPA CA? Ever since bankruptcy protection they've been trying to split everything up like never before, not encourage bringing anything together. Do I help change their mind by not going to AC in case GS passes? No.

Wouldn't a more productive approach be to form a committee for ALPA to be present in ACPA's '09 negotiations and ACPA to be present in ALPA's '09 negotiations? That would provide some really tangible benefits for everyone and be a real first step that is totally achievable without opening CA's. Management wouldn't even have a say in the matter. Unions decide it, it's done.

Spaz,

Good post. You actually understand what is going on. The present corporate structure is set up to force employees to compete for work that used to be their's.

Look at ACTS with the 861 layoffs in YVR and heavy maintenance continues overseas. With the purchase of the maintenance company in El Salvidor by ACTS watch all heavy maintenance leave Canada. How well do you think the ACTS employees will do competing with employees that make 1/10 of what they do?

My guess would be that ACGHS is next. Air Canada ground handling services for those that do not know that Air Canada spun them out as a separate company last summer. They now have a service agreement with Air Canada. Guess what happens when their service agreement ends and goes out to tender? Air Canada can use any company they want. My guess would be the lowest bidder. How do you think they will do trying to compete with say Hudson General or Globe ground for their jobs?

Look what just happened in London. Air Canada signed a tentative agreement for below the wing handling to another service provider because the Air Canada employee contract was up. The Air Canada employees agreed to large pay cuts to keep the jobs in house.

As for what is in store for us. Look beyond 2009 to about 2014. In 2014, 6 1/2 years from now, the lucrative seat purchase agreement between Air Canada and Jazz, set up by ACE to suck money out of Air Canada on a tax preferred basis, will end. The new agreement, negotiated by Air Canada this time, will be in line with industry standard. (Read here as cheap as possible.) By 2014, ACE the holding company, will no longer exist. Air Canada and Jazz will be no more related than AC and Westjet are today. Air Canada will have the option of using any carrier it pleases for a seat purchase agreement.

Because Jazz is an income trust, come 2014 they will have no money in the bank. All that lucrative profit from the present seat purchase agreement will have been spun out to the shareholders on a tax preferred basis. Yeah we all know the players. How well do you think the Jazz employees will fair when competing with the likes of CMA, Georgian or a US connector (for transboarder lift) for Air Canada's seat purchase agreement in 2014? Just look south of the boarder to see how this works.

Again, ACE has set these companies up to compete in the free market for Air Canada service agreements. It is called using market forces to drive down fixed costs related to employees.

I doubt Air Canada will entertain a single list since that would or could prevent them from tendering the connector seat purchase agreement come 2014 to the cheapest bidder.

So what then?

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:21 pm

Jazz CPA with mainline is till 2014 but rates are established at 5 year intervals and those rates are determined by a formula using 4 or 5 US regionals as comparison. Your guess is as good as mine if ACE will still be a the majority shareholder of Jazz in 2014.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:43 am

bobcaygeon wrote:Jazz CPA with mainline is till 2014 but rates are established at 5 year intervals and those rates are determined by a formula using 4 or 5 US regionals as comparison. Your guess is as good as mine if ACE will still be a the majority shareholder of Jazz in 2014.

The present CPA for Jazz, started in 2004 and ends in 2014. The five year interval you refer to is in 2009. In 2009 the Jazz CPA will be rejigged for inflation as prescribed in the CPA and will still be very lucrative. It is not a negotiation but rather a rejig of the CPA for inflation. Jazz is still guaranteed a 14% profit for shareholders which Air Canada will top up if Jazz does not achieve the target. The formula you refer to using regionals in the US for comparison is for deciding how much the CPA will increase by. The CPA will go up by the percentage increase or decrease in costs based on the comparison.

As you can see Air Canada has had no input into the CPA. ACE set up the CPA between the two before Air Canada was IPO'd as a way "monetizing" on a tax preferred basis. Again in 2009 Air Canada will have no right to renegotiate the CPA because the rates and increases are already prescribed within a formula in the CPA itself.

However come 2014 the CPA is up for actual negotiation and renewal. That negotiation will this time be with Air Canada and not ACE. Air Canada now has it's own BOD and has a fiduciary duty to their shareholders and only their shareholders. Air Canada will be free to negotiate whatever it wants with whomever it wants with regards to a CPA. Air Canada will use competitive market forces to drive fixed employee cost down.

With the last distribution in January ACE is already a minority shareholder in Aeoplan (40%) and very close for Jazz (58%). However through the income trust setup ACE still retains control for now.

Ace will be gone. The whole purpose of the holding company is to extract value. The sum of the pieces is greater than the whole. When the extraction or monetization is finished ACE will no longer have a purpose. Most people think ACE will cease to be by 2009 some sooner.

In Case you missed the last ACE announcement.

http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/Wi ... cejang0302

ACE Aviation to distribute $603-million in Aeroplan, Jazz units
BRENT JANG

18:11 EST Friday, March 02, 2007

Air Canada's parent company has unveiled a $603-million distribution, rewarding shareholders with units in Aeroplan Income Fund and Jazz Air Income Fund.

After the payout, ACE Aviation Holdings Inc.'s stake in Aeroplan will fall to 40.1 per cent from 50.3 per cent, while its Jazz interest will decline to 58.8 per cent from 79.1 per cent.

Montreal-based ACE said Friday that the payout's value works out to $5.29 per ACE share, and marks the second round of distributions since late last year. In December, ACE announced an $856-million payout of Aeroplan units to ACE shareholders.

Last October, ACE shareholders approved plans to distribute up to $2-billion in capital, and so far, $1.46-billion in payouts have been announced.

Joel Sutherland, an analyst with Merrill Lynch Canada Inc., said Friday that ACE could still distribute another $541-million worth of units, likely in the popular Aeroplan customer loyalty program.

In the latest payout, ACE shareholders of record on March 14 will receive Aeroplan and Jazz units by the end of this month. For every ACE share, investors are entitled to 0.177 of an Aeroplan unit and 0.219 of a Jazz unit.

ACE is also seeking a private buyer for Air Canada Technical Services, which performs aircraft maintenance, repairs and overhaul.

While ACE isn't commenting on how much of ACTS it's willing to sell, industry sources say the goal is to find a buyer to snap up at least 42.9 per cent. Last November, Toronto-based Onex Corp. emerged as a potential bidder.

Over the past three weeks, ACE has been sending information packages to interested parties, including Zurich-based SR Technics and the maintenance divisions of Deutsche Lufthansa AG and Singapore Airlines, said a source familiar with the bidding process. “There have been upwards of 20 expressions of interest,” the source said.

Analysts estimate that ACTS could be worth a total of $700-million to $1-billion.

ACE's strategy to wind itself down is gathering momentum as various divisions get spun out, said Robert Kokonis, president of AirTrav Inc., an airline and travel management consulting firm. “ACE will cease to be a separate holding company no later than Dec. 31, 2008,” Mr. Kokonis predicted.

ACE was created after Air Canada emerged from bankruptcy protection in September, 2004.

Meanwhile, Air Canada's management proxy circular Friday showed that its president, Montie Brewer, earned $1.46-million last year, up from $1.26-million in 2005.

Mr. Brewer's 2006 compensation included a $601,000 salary and $822,147 bonus.

ACE, which owns 75 per cent of Air Canada, spun off a 25-per-cent stake in the country's largest airline last November in an initial public offering and secondary issue.

Air Canada's loss last year widened to $74-million from the $20-million loss in 2005.

“Being a separate company will challenge us to make consistent profits carrying passengers and freight,” Mr. Brewer said in a letter to shareholders in the airline's annual report.

Brick Head · Post by **Brick Head** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:55 am

Since everyone's lively hood in the ACE family is dependent on either Air Canada directly or indirectly through a CPA or service agreement this quote should open eyes.

"Air Canada's loss last year widened to $74-million from the $20-million loss in 2005."

Where are they now on the list?

where they at on the jazz seniority list?