getting out of bonds

[Falken]

Isn't this a moot point? It's like asking if one should pay child support or not. Not only does it make a dent in you honor and reputation, but if you dont pay it, the government comes to find you and makes you pay anyway.

Similarly, the bond is a legal agreement... dont pay it and watch them come after you (unless they're some small mom & pop operation that doesnt have the money to hire someone to chase you down, in which case you must be feeling really good about ripping them off )

Sure, you might get away with it and not have to pay, but why damage your reputation for some small change? In the long run, you should be making enough money to pay it off. If you cant afford it / cant get a loan at the moment, just do what you said you would do and work for another year. You're lucky! You're employed and building time!

[avi8tr]

Thanks for the opinions and comments. This will be my final posting on this subject. The way I see it, why should I care about some other guy I have never met and is gonna take over my job. Just like nobody cared about me signing the bond, I could care less about some other guys career. Furthermore, the person taking over my job will probably be an instructor getting a new gig, so if the company thinks it will get $6000 upfront from an instructor, they are dreaming. I know when I was instructing, I didn't have an extra $6000 to put up front. Especially with all the movement, the company would be stupid to think people will put money upfront. What assurances does the company give you that they will not go "JETSGO" on your ass. Then who is stuck paying it off......YOU ARE!
It's not about morals, it is about business. It is about eat or be eaten, so get off your moral highways and go sleep in bus shelters if you don't think money talks and bullshit walks.

Bottomline, I'll wait till they ask for it....then I'll decide. And my answer, will not be based on what I've read on this post. And if they name bonds the "avi8tr" it will be because I was the one who said "no....you got this backwards...I work for you...you pay me!!!!!" I'm so got damn tired of pilots being pussies and not stand up for themselves. Any other industry, people don't pay for training.....why do pilots? Is it because we feel guilty for what we do. Maybe. But I refuse to pay for training, especially with the low wages pilots get, especially with all the cost involved in getting a licence and especially when we line the pockets of upper management. The next time your layed off from a job, are you still going to payback your bond because you said you would.......didn't think so!

[Cat Driver]

avi8ter, how many jobs have you had as a pilot?

Judging from what you have posted and deleted here I sure would like to know your experience level as a pilot.

[avi8tr]

I've had my fair share of jobs, some better than others. I've been screwed over just as much as many others. Now that times are changing, it's about time we reap the rewards...it's been long overdue.

[The Other Kind]

avi8tr,

It must suck to be you.

[avi8tr]

no... not really.

[Cat Driver]

If a persons word is not good the persons worth is obvious.

[The Other Kind]

Exactly.

That sounds like it came out of a fortune cookie.

[avi8tr]

hey cat,
how many bonds have you had flying the "cats" around the world. Not too many, I bet. Don't lecture me on a persons worth....your a hundred and all you do is stay on this website.

[The Other Kind]

avi8tr wrote:

hey cat,
how many bonds have you had flying the "cats" around the world. Not too many, I bet. Don't lecture me on a persons worth....your a hundred and all you do is stay on this website.

Very classy. You started this thread looking for opinions on the whole bond thing. Don't jump all over people who respond, particularly those who can teach you a thing or two...

[avi8tr]

exactly, opinions on bonds not peoples worth. Bonds are an insult....peroid.

[The Other Kind]

Ok.

To me, a bond is simply me agreeing to work for a company (with fair compensation) for an agreed (and reasonable) amount of time in return for them investing a significant amount of money preparing me for the job.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Bonds are an insult....peroid.

Please explain how bonds are an insult.

BTW - We're talking about signing a piece of paper, not paying cash up front.

[LostinRotation]

I'm so got damn tired of pilots being pussies and not stand up for themselves. Any other industry, people don't pay for training.....why do pilots? Is it because we feel guilty for what we do. Maybe. But I refuse to pay for training, especially with the low wages pilots get, especially with all the cost involved in getting a licence and especially when we line the pockets of upper management. The next time your layed off from a job, are you still going to payback your bond because you said you would.......didn't think so!

First off I'm not a pussy for staying true to my word. A pussy is someone who turns and runs when things get tough...like having to pay a bond that they signed in good faith

Secondly, training someone on an A/C that requires a course at Flight safety for example costs big bucks....money that some operators are willing to pay if they are assured they will see a return, for example an employee that will work for them for a reasonable amount of time. A bond is their insurance policy they aren't paying $200,000 a year in training costs that will sink the company. Training someone on a Citation X costs alot more than teaching someone how to work the drive through window at Taco Bell or set-up a wireless network. Oh and if you need another comparison, doctors have to do a residency. They work insane hours for little pay (relatively). If you don't think they pay a training bond in working for lower wages and long hours think again. The hospital gets a doctor for a lower cost to cover training expenses.

Thirdly....if you were layed off....and not for your shitty attitude, you may have a leg to stand on. But like alot of us said in the first place....you signed it and no one put a gun to your head.


-=0=LiR=0=-

[mbav8r]

Lostinrotation wrote:

Secondly, training someone on an A/C that requires a course at Flight safety for example costs big bucks....money that some operators are willing to pay if they are assured they will see a return, for example an employee that will work for them for a reasonable amount of time. A bond is their insurance policy they aren't paying $200,000 a year in training costs that will sink the company. Training someone on a Citation X costs alot more than teaching someone how to work the drive through window at Taco Bell or set-up a wireless network. Oh and if you need another comparison, doctors have to do a residency. They work insane hours for little pay (relatively). If you don't think they pay a training bond in working for lower wages and long hours think again. The hospital gets a doctor for a lower cost to cover training expenses.

Money they pay for training is cost of doing business, whos paying back my loans to the tune of 45gs. I was in managment and for a turbine twin the cost of training was recovered at the 6 month mark, without a bond.
I also believe training is a writeoff to the company.
Training someone on a citation X, not likely they're looking to go elsewhere anyhow.
After a doctors 2 year residency, they start making big bucks and write their own cheques. Some that I have talked to, say about 150,000/yr off the hop. Pay me like that and yah I'll sign a 20 year bond.

I've been flying for a long time and I am embarrassed to say I made more money driving a truck.(70,000) for those who were wondering.

[LostinRotation]

Money they pay for training is cost of doing business, whos paying back my loans to the tune of 45gs.

I've been flying for a long time and I am embarrassed to say I made more money driving a truck.(70,000) for those who were wondering.

Well, your paying off those loans, but I'd assume you didn't change professions 5 times in a year. Who paid for your truck driver training ?
Since I worked for a trucking company I know a little about the trucking industry myself and I would take a wild guess you did. You can write off schooling on your taxes, but I'd assume you couldn't afford to re-train yourself in 5 different disciplines per year without going bankrupt. Similar to a smaller operator if he had to eat the cost of training 6 guys a year for his two A/C operation....which would indeed lead to really crappy wages. Viscious cycle.....and yes trucking can be VERY lucrative, but it's not easy and it's not for everyone. Point is bonds cost you nothing, the operator sees a good return on his/her investment and chances are you should see a good wage. If the wage is crap and/or the bond is higher than the training really costs, simply walk away. The key to training bonds is research. I said it earlier....before you sign anything research the company, the people, the wages, the schedule, the equipment, the maintenance and then decide if your going to be happy working for them for the duration of the bond or longer.

MB I agree you have valid points, but if people have big bucks spent on them in training and they continue to screw over operators what did we really expect them to do ? Alot of really descent operators I know of have had to implement bonds because they simply couldn't afford training all the jerks that were simply looking for that 500-1000 hours they needed to move on and lied about staying on the job.

I would rather die in a fire than pay for a job. That said, I did my research, I love the company I now work for and if they had to spend 20k on my training I wouldn't have had a second thought about signing that bond because I plan on being here for years to come and it doesn't take a single penny out of my pocket.

-=0=LiR=0=-

[xsbank]

All of this is twaddle.
You agreed to a bond.
It doesn't matter what the circumstances are - you have an agreement, you live up to it. Or you pay.

Why is this so difficult to just accept? This is not about 'me' or 'entitlement' or any other justification you can invent. You entered into an agreement, you leave whenever you want, but you pay. Stay as long as the terms of the agreement, you don't pay. Suck it up - used to be called being a man.

Action = consequences. Hard lesson to learn, but you have to learn integrity somewhere. Might as well start now.

[Cat Driver]

" hey cat,
how many bonds have you had flying the "cats" around the world. Not too many, I bet. Don't lecture me on a persons worth....your a hundred and all you do is stay on this website. "

avi8tr:

I'm sorry I answered your questions because you obviously are lacking in the IQ to understand the answers.

The difference between you and I is because I have a history of being a person of my word I never lack for work should I want it, even if I am a hundred.

You are batting zero here with your attitude.

[Doc]

Shit Cat, I didn't know you were a hundred!
avi8tr...pay the bond. You were STUPID enough to sign it. Pay it!

[avi8tr]

.

[Captain 152]

Funny how you had no problem signing the bond when it suited you, but as soon as your circumstances change, you feel like you don't have to honour it anymore. They should make you pay back double just for being an idiot

[JayVee]

So much for his word, he can't even shut his c@cks*****r five posts after he said it was his last post.

av8tr, It makes no difference whether you pay what you owe or suckerpunch the company by not paying what you promised, you're still an asshole.
Just my opinion of course, feel free to ask me to blow you, or whatever clever comeback you may offer.
Oooo! I can't wait!

[LostinRotation]

hey doc.....B...L...O.....W.....M.....E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL...the only action your going to get is when the company comes after you for that bond. I'd lend you a barrel, but I'm sure they have their own.

.....avi8tr...is it hard to fly like this ?





-=0=LiR=0=-

[short bus]

hah hah

that reminds me of a good quote: "I wish I could see things from your point of view, but my head doesn't go that far up my ass."

[prop2jet]

It would seem that the majority consensus in reading these posts is that one should honour their "word" and pay the bond. While this may be the honourable thing to do, in some cases the term of the bond, price attached to it are far from reasonable.

If the company you are working for is a good place to work, treats their employees fairly, there should be no cause for a bond. There will always be turnover, and about the only thing a company can do to balance the playing field is to hire a mix of staff ranging from the ones you know who are going to move to the next best thing to the ones who are content staying where they are. Those operators that insist on nickle and diming their pilots by imposing hefty "training" bonds are merely trying to attach a price to a pilot leaving, because they know they do not have the best of working conditions.

It goes without saying that the real power lies with the employer. They usually have the money and resources to enforce the bond, whereas you as the individual do not. Taking matters into your own hands through the legal system so as to contest the terms can be a costly endeavour, unless of course you peruse the matter in small claims court.

When it comes to honour... before any of you start spouting off any more on this... think about this.

Where is the honour when the employer decides to tear up contracts that were signed in good faith and extort major consessions only to then line their own pockets with money??