ATPL Farce

[shitdisturber]

I dont think the atpl is joke/farce/all that bad. I am somewhat surprised at how little experience is required to hold one, but really it is only required to fly a two crew aircraft as PIC.

I think that FO time should be logable 1 for 1 however. If you are giong to use the excuse of flying only half the legs i would say well the captain only flies the other half, so that is out. Decision making in a 2 crew environment should be made by both pilots together, both are being paid plus it makes for a more useful FO when needed....i think that transport should recognize it as 1 for 1 and if a company is looking for fast upgraders then they can count FO time as half, like they do for instructing in the float world and whatever else they want......which in my opinion is ignorant, but no one really listens to me anyways.

Plus a good FO should know the plane as well as the captain. I just dont see the whole 1/2 thing.......

Best response yet, Im in 100% agreeance with you. Well done.

I think it's hilarious that the only one you're not being confrontational with is the guy who just happens to agree with you. Really, what's holding you back, the lack of an ATPL or your maturity?

[station60]

I think it's hilarious that the only one you're not being confrontational with is the guy who just happens to agree with you. Really, what's holding you back, the lack of an ATPL or your maturity?

Maturity, for sure, no doubt about that.

I'm done with this convo, I got a boat waiting for me with a wakeboard behind it and no ATPL needed for either. See ya!

[North Shore]

Must be a great life, huh? All of that _airline_ time, money and time off, a boat, no doubt filled with hot chicks, waiting at the beach, and yet...there's a little emptiness, somewhere - a feeling that you haven't quite 'made it'
Gosh darn, no ATPL because you don't have the time

[sarg]

My turn to add my 2 cents. I think the requirements for the ATPL should be increased not relaxed. I'm showing my age a little but perhaps it's time to reintroduce a intermediate license, like the old Senior Commercial. It can start at the current ATPL point for experience let act as PIC up to something in the 30,000 to 40,000 pound range; perhaps JC or Cat can jog my memory on the limits of the old Senior Commercial. After a suitable number of hours at this level 500 PIC, 1,000 hours FO or pick some other numbers out of a hat. You right some more exams and get an ATPL that is in line with UK license.

[saucer_driver]

Sarg,

That is a good idea. actually a constructive post, shocking. I agree in that you should have more experience to get an ATPL so a lesser license might make sense for the in between people.....that way you could count your FO time as 1 for 1, and please the others.

[Grey_Wolf]

I'm showing my age a little but perhaps it's time to reintroduce a intermediate license, like the old Senior Commercial.

Although new to the industry, I also feel there's a lack between the CPL and ATPL level. Since as far as i can remember it's always been once your got your CPL, there's was 3 routes to getting to "bigger and better"; namely 1-Getting Floats and heading way north, 2-Instructing, or 3-Having an inside connection/daddy owns the airline way in.

So the dilema becomes ... what makes me more employable than the next guy? ... and we've heard all "it" all before ... Instructing is worthless, many folks seem to frown on them as second class pilots, as for bush guys ... they're consistenly pushing weather and CARs and operating umpteen year old machines ....

so how do we solve this problem .... some say to intergrate newly minted CPL into the industry with mentoring .... good idea, however, many argue no real life experience. True enough. Presently the industry is moving nicely .... many companies looking for DECs ... in some cases it's not happening because candidates lack hours to meet insurance/contract demands.

Any takers on how to solve this problem?

[Widow]

I still think SATOPs provided a lot of good ideas.

When a pilot is being paid by the mile or the hour flown, or is being paid only for completed flights, it puts pressure on the pilot to fly as many hours as possible and to complete the flights. These methods of remuneration have a direct and negative effect on the pilot's decision making, especially in seasonal operations where there are only a few weeks or months to work. Some operators offset this pressure by paying their pilots a fixed salary. Others require the client to pay for the flight time if the client wants to just "take a look" at the weather and the pilot doesn't complete the flight.

SR 37 - Recommend Transport Canada investigate a means to require air operators to remunerate pilots in a way that eliminates the operating pressures associated with the method of payment.

IA 37 - Recommend air operators and pilots acknowledge the negative effect that the "pay-by-the-mile" method of payment can have on safe operational decision making. Recommend air operators and pilots make decisions based on safety, not remuneration and that air operators consider other methods of remunerating pilots.

... would be a good start. I think a lot of other problems would be simultaneously and positively affected by fixing this problem.

[Four1oh]

You did 400 hours flying skydivers and you think you deserve an ATPL??!! what a frigggin joke!

Did you even read my argument? That' is *NOT* my argument. LEARN TO READ. (as Pile-ought points out very well)

Sounds to me like a classic, wanna-get-to-the-airlines-fast kind of guy to me

I _am_ at the airlines. You're 0/2 man!

I am now going wakeboarding, so fight amongst yourselves!

Hey putz, thanks for proving my point.

[Spokes]

Sarg,

That is a good idea. actually a constructive post, shocking. I agree in that you should have more experience to get an ATPL so a lesser license might make sense for the in between people.....that way you could count your FO time as 1 for 1, and please the others.

Hmmm. Why? I know airforce pilots with <800hrs flying 130000lb machines as Captain. I do not think that 1500hours is unreasonable. As for FO time, it is no replacement for comand authority and experience. This has nothing to do with 'every ohter leg is mine'. Heck, mostof this time is spent on autopilot watching dme cound down.

C'mon now, if you want to command a big plane, it is not unreasonable to ask for some command experience on a smaller aircraft where the result of poor judgement is less costly.

There has been some bitching that it is unfair that instructors get an ATPL so easy. Well this is a straw man. I would suspect that even with this licence, someone with no experience on larger aircraft would likely be started as a first o. Only with comand potential shown to an operator would they move on (ok, sure in a perfect world).

The Idea that an instructor might spend 500hr in the circuit and 1000 in the training area is foolish. My first 1000hrs was spent instructing. I would say I spent maybe 10-20% of that time in the circuit. Probably twice that in the training area. The rest was flying scenic tours and charters on both wheels and floats. I would'nt think this is not normal for most instructors.

To those saying that instruction time is useless, well thats like saying bush pilots have know idea how to work in controlled airspace, or FO's only know how to put the gear up and get coffee. A stereo type, but not really true.

Well there is my $.02. I would say that the ATPL requirements are basically ok. It's worked so far. Just because another guy with no comand experience is not happy, is no reason to change it.

[station60]

FO's only know how to put the gear up and get coffee. A stereo type, but not really true.

I agree, not true at all; the F/A gets my coffee.

[Cat Driver]

I agree, not true at all; the F/A gets my coffee

Do you wink at him and lick your lips?

[Four1oh]

So 7f wants to upgrade you, but you still, after all these years, don't have your ATPL. Have you figured out yet why so few of us have any sympathy for you? Man, I flew with the likes of your kind, and I'm glad the system works.

[RNAV]

Can't we all just get along?

As frustrating as the process can be, there should be changes to the
requirements. It's called an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - That should mean that there is some requirement to have actually flown in an airline environment. Going from PIC on a C150 to Captain on a Dash 8 is a bit of a step (though improbable, it is what the licence suggests).

While I agree instructor time can be valuable, there are many more considerations when you're flying a turbine versus a light single as an instructor.

I think the proposed amendment to count co-pilot time 1 to 1 on aircraft where it's required is a good start. Some guys give it their best as F/Os.. they are involved in decision making, flight planning, and offer suggestions & advice (be it good or bad) to the PIC: Some learn as PICs flying as instructors, others learn on the line as F/Os. While the ultimate decision rests with the PIC, at least you have an opportunity to participate.

Perhaps the best solution may be to follow suit of other countries:
You receive an ATPL for a specific aircraft instead of a blanket rating.

RNAV

[arcticbeaches]

I agree that co-pilot time should count one to one but I am tired of hearing people justify such a change due to the fact that "instructors receive it so why shouldn't I?"

Instructing is far and away the most challenging flying I have ever engaged in. At my present employer we take off, click on the autopilot and fly fat, dumb and happy till we occasionally have to shoot an IFR approach, that is conducted in an organized fashion due to scripted SOP's and experienced crew members. Now try shooting the same approach with a green student who has a terrible scan, over controls the aircraft and has a complete lack of situational awareness.

A constant image conveyed of instructors is the instructor happily sitting dumb in the right seat while their student does circuits. Flying the circuit as a VFR instructor required more attention, situational awareness and skill than instructing IFR in hard IMC conditions or for that matter any flying I have encountered to date. In the circuit (especially at a busy airport) there is a huge amount of traffic, aircraft checks need to be done, and a brief assessment of the past circuit to be made so that you are not wasting the students time.

As well, while instructing you are occupied 100% of the time while flying vs. the 20%-40% in an airline environment depending on leg duration. This time is spent constantly assessing and critiquing your students performance while also dealing with external factors to the students performance: weather, ATC, traffic, forced landing options, etc. These multi-tasking skills are extremely valuable and far exceed any skills I have acquired in the "real world". Instructing does not have a sit at FL230 and read the paper element. Every instructor I know who has gone on to multi-crew flying has viewed it as a far more relaxed and generally speaking easier job once they have overcome the initial hurdles of learning a new aircraft and operating in an airline SOP environment.

Effin Hippie has an excellent suggestion with the idea of a 500 hours minimum in a multi-crew environment. The ATPL allows the pilot to command a two crew aircraft and two crew experience seems a logical necessity. As well his commendation of navajo experience is logical for many of the same reasons given above: frequent approaches, green f/o's that are essentially still students, flying in, not above, the weather and the decision making element.

To the point of would you instruct if it required 500 hours? Probably not, I would have likely followed a different career path, however that in no way belittles the experiences I acquired.

Anyways, rant ends here. Regardless of your background good luck finishing your ATPL's. I have worked with pilots from multiple backgrounds and all ultimately end up being competent at their position and in a multi-crew environment the varying backgrounds certainly complement each other . I am just tired of people slagging instructors.

[sarg]

Hmmm. Why? I know airforce pilots with <800hrs flying 130000lb machines as Captain. I do not think that 1500hours is unreasonable.

Spokes, Although I cann't comment on the time that on A/C commander has in the military has when he's on the Herc. Lufthansa hires 0 time off and puts you into a regional a/c or a cruiser. Both of these examples have major differences than our civilian system, an extenisve about of thoretcial work, rock hard SOP's and strong mentorship. The military requires 3 crew for the Twin Otter on floats a machine that with able dock hands on both is flown single pilot in the civilian market. I'm not saying that one is more right than the other it's apples and oranges.

[flynfiddle]

Instructing is challenging? Are you saying it more challenging than say flying a medivac into short gravel strips on dark dirty nights with @#$! all for nav aids? More challenging than off-strip work? Float flying? yadda yadda yadda. More challenging than airline work?

Maybe you're right, shit happens pretty fast in a 172 requiring only a fraction of a second to make life and death decisions and at the end of the day I guess it's probably alright to say "Jeeze, I did good out there today, I've got my 1500 hours, my ATPL (probably haven't flown more than 300 nm from base), I'm getting tired of all the challenges of instructing, I'm ready for something easy like the airlines or at least a simple 2 crew gig"

I don't think instructors are useless. I'll stop on that note.

[chu me]

Just to throw a little gas on the fire...... your 1st lesson in the airplane(Attitudes and movements) counted as one hour towards your ATPL!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't figure that one out.

[ei ei owe]

Since as far as i can remember it's always been once your got your CPL, there's was 3 routes to getting to "bigger and better"; namely 1-Getting Floats and heading way north, 2-Instructing, or 3-Having an inside connection/daddy owns the airline way in.

What's with #3? I don't have any family relations or inside connections where I'm at but I did go up north to make some connections that got me where I am. Maybe your option #3 should be "have a good attitude and be ambitious enough to undertake a drive to meet some people instead of expecting it to come to you."

[Grey_Wolf]

Since as far as i can remember it's always been once your got your CPL, there's was 3 routes to getting to "bigger and better"; namely 1-Getting Floats and heading way north, 2-Instructing, or 3-Having an inside connection/daddy owns the airline way in.

What's with #3? I don't have any family relations or inside connections where I'm at but I did go up north to make some connections that got me where I am. Maybe your option #3 should be "have a good attitude and be ambitious enough to undertake a drive to meet some people instead of expecting it to come to you."

As for #3 ... Neither do I, I believe that I have and always had a strong work ethic .... putting 12 hours day at the school instructing and doubling as line crew and office assistant. With that said ... if im working 12 hours days 4-5 days a week ... that leaves little time, or energy for that matter, to drive out anywhere to meet and greet with folks; hence email is quicker. Plus it seems no one is willing to talk to me unless I have 1000 TT, so in the mean time i'll keep firing emails with hopes that i get someone to respond, otherwise once i get 1000 TT, i'll be cutting back and taking those drives! Cheers.

[ei ei owe]

Well, for the 1000hr benchmark I guess that's what/where you apply for. You can get a job without the 1000 but it might not be for you.

[Spokes]

Hmmm. Why? I know airforce pilots with <800hrs flying 130000lb machines as Captain. I do not think that 1500hours is unreasonable.

Spokes, Although I cann't comment on the time that on A/C commander has in the military has when he's on the Herc. Lufthansa hires 0 time off and puts you into a regional a/c or a cruiser. Both of these examples have major differences than our civilian system, an extenisve about of thoretcial work, rock hard SOP's and strong mentorship. The military requires 3 crew for the Twin Otter on floats a machine that with able dock hands on both is flown single pilot in the civilian market. I'm not saying that one is more right than the other it's apples and oranges.

Well, the point I was trying (badly) to make is that depending on the person, total time is not always a good yardstick for measuring someones ability to fly larger aircraft. This was in response to someones suggestion that the hourly requirement for the ATPL was too low. I take your point though.

I still feel however that the requirments for an ATPL are not unreasonable. I think the idea of requireing a certain amount of time in a 2 pilot operation as a requirement for an ATP is not nessecary. A pilot (float/instructor/bush/whatever) with a fresh shiny new ATP would most likely end up in the right seat for quite a while anyways. He/she may be there for 100, 500 or 2000 hours. It would be the operators call based on the judgement of the pilots abilities. If after say 200 hours the operator feels that person is suitable for a captaincy, then they should be able to make that call.

If there was a 500 hour 2 crew aircraft requirement, then this person would be complaining about unnessecary government interference on avcanada, and that they should be able to get there ATPL. The thread would likey be called 'atpl farce' or some such thing. Wait a minute....hmmmm....

[station60]

So 7f wants to upgrade you, but you still, after all these years, don't have your ATPL. Have you figured out yet why so few of us have any sympathy for you? Man, I flew with the likes of your kind, and I'm glad the system works.

Did I ask for your sympathy? Do I need your sympathy? The enitre reason I posted this was to create constructive debate on the ATPL in Canada....you turned it into destructive banter... I guess that's typical for AvCanada.

Also, I have to aplogize to you. I mentioned in a previous post that I worked for an airline.... my friend pointed out to me that because I don't work for Air Canada that you would have a hard time grasping the idea there is more than one 705 in Canada. He was right.

[xsbank]

This is really a silly debate. When you begin your flying career, you count your experience in tenths of an hour. Very soon, filling out your logbook is a PITA and you round everything off to hundreds.

Just put in your time, write the exams and apply for it. I got mine in 1981 and my FAA one in 2001 and I really don't think about it. You will all get your ATPLs soon enough and you can stop worrying about it.

Some countries think more of the stripes on your shoulder (which is why I wore 4 no matter what seat I was in when I used to contract) than your license, although the countries who asked to see it always ask again for the real one instead of that stupid blue paper. I had a real hard time with an 'official' in Macau who was holding my license in my hand and demanding the 'real one.' Maybe TCs fancy schmancy new booklet will wow them down east, if I can afford a 'man bag' to carry it in!!!

[Four1oh]

So 7f wants to upgrade you, but you still, after all these years, don't have your ATPL. Have you figured out yet why so few of us have any sympathy for you? Man, I flew with the likes of your kind, and I'm glad the system works.

Did I ask for your sympathy? Do I need your sympathy? The enitre reason I posted this was to create constructive debate on the ATPL in Canada....you turned it into destructive banter... I guess that's typical for AvCanada.

Also, I have to aplogize to you. I mentioned in a previous post that I worked for an airline.... my friend pointed out to me that because I don't work for Air Canada that you would have a hard time grasping the idea there is more than one 705 in Canada. He was right.

You want constructive? Here's some 'instructive'. Go get some PIC time and stop whining. You dug your own hole, now be a man and get out of it. FYI I've worked for 3 705 operators in Canada, excluding AC.

It's guys like you that are the reason 7F has a matrix system. They know there's more to experience than a senority number.

Cheers and good luck. If you want any names of some operators I could hook you up with, PM me. If single engine PIC will do, I know of a good guy who operates a few beavers on floats.

[station60]

Cheers and good luck. If you want any names of some operators I could hook you up with, PM me. If single engine PIC will do, I know of a good guy who operates a few beavers on floats.

Trust me dude, I don't need your help. Worked for 3 705's? Couldn't hold down just one? Furlough should read "let-go"

Putz.