Single Turbine vs. Multi Piston

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altiplano
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Post by altiplano »

endless wrote:Everyone on here who's flown both seems to think the PC-12 is the superior plane, myself included.
But this isn't the issue. PC12 and PA31 are completely different in market niche, not to mention production era.

The question was: For a first, low time job, what is better right seat PC12 or PA31.

I take better to mean: Which will-
1 - provide opportunity to upgrade left seat sooner.
2 - increase marketability to future employers.

I say you will:
1 - likely upgrade sooner to left seat in a navajo.
2 - with the multi pic you get after going left seat in the -ho move on to a mult-turbine machine and be able to continue upgrading to the left seat.

I hear the guys saying at their company you move PC12 captain to BE02 captain with little to no multi time let alone multi pic. But I think it is more the exception than the rule... and the question was not "What is better PC12 at Wasaya vs. PA31 at Weagamow?" so I think it needs to be looked at in more general terms...

Besides if I was CP I would appreciate the fact I'd be hiring a guy who had hand flown the last 1500 hours because there's no autopilot/fms/moving map/whatever other "superior" things the PC12 has...

And EFIS is easier to learn than to unlearn IMO.

Again - not speaking to quality of machine - just what is going to get you in a better career postion quicker.

Maybe the question should be right seat PC12 vs. a new King Air 90...
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Jim N
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Post by Jim N »

altiplano wrote: ....Besides if I was CP I would appreciate the fact I'd be hiring a guy who had hand flown the last 1500 hours because there's no autopilot/fms/moving map/whatever other "superior" things the PC12 has...
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I would take the 'Ho if for no other reason than personal skill development. Nothing like just two VORs and a fixed card ADF to hone the IFR skills. Maybe it won't be skill you need as you move up the career ladder, but it might just save your ass one day on the way up.

I say get some 'Ho time and experience first. Multi time never hurts. Move on to the PC-12 later, after the 'Ho with the steam gauges and stage cooling, I'm sure you will appreciate it even more.

As far as the single engine service ceiling on a Chieftain is concerned, I think 10,600' rings a bell. I'll have to dig out a POH as I've never had to find out. I have found 24.000' to be the two-engine service ceiling in a -310 though. You should have heard the Dash driver's reaction when he was told traffic was a Navajo. :D
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Hawker
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Post by Hawker »

I found out insurance requirements for the left seat on the Ho is 1500, is this average??
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Four1oh
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Post by Four1oh »

oh, 'this' discussion again. i'm not even going to bother reading the reponses, here's my opinion.

What's the target? multi-turbine?

ok, what's the fastest way to get to PIC of a less than 12500 lb multi turbine? Yes, the answer is multi-piston. No, it's not the only way, but IMO, it's the fastest way. After that the rest will follow.

Single engine turbine will still be a step to the multi-piston... unless you spend a shitload of time on it, and where's the fun in that?

Maybe I got lucky with timing, maybe I took jobs where other people shied away from but...
-1 season on a C180 seaplane
-1 season dhc-2 seaplane
-700 hrs on a chieftain and getting 200 hrs cojo'ing on a light multi-turbine at same time
-300 hrs full-time PIC on light multi-turbine
-2000 hrs FO on heavy multi-turbo prop
2500 hrs FO on turbojet
3500 hrs FO on a better turbojet
and now PIC on said turbojet.


Just my opinion, of course. :wink:
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flyinphil
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Post by flyinphil »

Having hired numerous pilots for multi jet operations, I never gave PC 12 or Caravan time any more credence than a C-185 or DHC-2. Multi-PIC time, piston, turbine or otherwise in with exposure to higher density IFR ops wins out every time. Sorry, but that is just my take on it.
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Hedley
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Post by Hedley »

exposure to higher density IFR ops wins out every time
So, you only hire pilots who have flown in the USA? Interesting ...
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Cat Driver
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Post by Cat Driver »

Quote:
exposure to higher density IFR ops wins out every time
How about Eurocontrol, would that qualify?
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flyinphil
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Post by flyinphil »

Hedley wrote:
exposure to higher density IFR ops wins out every time
So, you only hire pilots who have flown in the USA? Interesting ...
Well, that is what we do 95% of the time, so exposure to that is an asset.
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flyinphil
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Post by flyinphil »

Cat Driver wrote:
Quote:
exposure to higher density IFR ops wins out every time
How about Eurocontrol, would that qualify?
Some centers within "Eurocontrol" are just as slow as northern Canada so I guess that would depend on where.
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Cat Driver
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Post by Cat Driver »

Some centers within "Eurocontrol" are just as slow as northern Canada so I guess that would depend on where.
That is what I love about Avcanada, you are never more than a post away from knowlege. :shock:

Is high density IFR less safe than low density IFR?
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pinkus
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Post by pinkus »

The simple answer to this whole stupid argument is this.

Your ability to perform in the future is closely linked to your past experience.

If you flew PC12 in an IFR corporate environment into the USA and you apply for a jet position that does the same, then it will be easy for you.

If you flew Ho's in the north and apply to fly King Airs it will be easy for you...

Pushing one lever or pushing 2 levers means jack squat. Pilots pretend that it does because we all have ego's.

EFIS, FMS, RAW DATA, BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Years ago, Multi time meant 3 or more...

Flying is about making decisions. We hire pilots to make decisions! With proper training pilots generally have no problem handling and flying any aircraft. 1 lever, 2 lever or more...The military uses initial training to weed out candidates that will likely not pass the course on the expensive stuff. At 200 hours you are strapping into a multi million dollar high performance machine because they TRAINED YOU to do that type of flying.

I am sick of this argument...
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Hedley
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Post by Hedley »

I never thought that flying straight and level from point A to point B was all that hard, but I presume that for some people, it must be :wink:
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Cat Driver
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Post by Cat Driver »

pinkus just about summed it up.....

However I am amazed at the low level of flying and thinking skills of some so called professional pilots.

Obviously the minimum standards to become a commercial pilot are way to lax.
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flyinphil
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Post by flyinphil »

Hedley wrote:I never thought that flying straight and level from point A to point B was all that hard, but I presume that for some people, it must be :wink:
It is for some. You only confess to flying point A to point A and can't keep it straight and level. :lol:

My point gentlemen, is that it is much easier to train an individual with "like" experience.

Is high density safer? I don't have stats to back that up either way but would sure be interested in looking at them if you have them handy.

..and yes, multi-engine did mean three or more and still does to me, so the term was used both intentionally and correctly.
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pinkus
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Post by pinkus »

Cat is right.

The standards are pretty low.

40 hours of ground school, are you serious?!

Good god. You could spend that just one one section of weather.
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niwre
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Post by niwre »

pinkus wrote:Cat is right.

The standards are pretty low.

40 hours of ground school, are you serious?!

Good god. You could spend that just one one section of weather.
ah but your forgetting TCs' "Band-aid" of doubling the GS to 80hrs :roll:
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pinkus
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Post by pinkus »

I did not know that.

I will surely sleep better....

Still scary!
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iaflyguy
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Post by iaflyguy »

If the music stops you will need 500 MPIC to move on to most jobs. If the hiring continues they won't care what you've been flying!

PC-12 is a beautiful machine ... but I turned down a left seat in it a few years ago when the industry was slow to fly a light twin.

Turned out to be a great career move!
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tofo
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Post by tofo »

you telling me you had two job offers when the industry was slow?
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