Gee thanks Dad,
Funny thing is I witnessed Peter clip that fence in 2006.
Airplane into building in Richmond.
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Cat Driver
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This caught my intrest, so privateer please elaborate for us.
And what exactly should they rethink?
Are you aware that Bob Hoover was in his eighties and still did his air display with the Rockwell Commander with both engines feathered?
Tell me where you think the age limit should be?
Are you aware that the older pilots generally are safer than the younger pilots?
Did you mean " their " medical standards?TC should rethink there medical standards.
And what exactly should they rethink?
So do 18 year olds.80 year olds tend to forget things, like procedures.
Are you aware that Bob Hoover was in his eighties and still did his air display with the Rockwell Commander with both engines feathered?
Tell me where you think the age limit should be?
Are you aware that the older pilots generally are safer than the younger pilots?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
To support Cat Driver's angle, a short blurb from the American Federation for Aging Research;
"Cognition refers to mental processes used for perceiving, remembering, and thinking. Most studies show that, in general, cognitive abilities are the greatest when people are in their 30s and 40s. Cognitive abilities stay about the same until the late 50s or early 60s, at which point they begin to decline, but to only a small degree. The effects of cognitive changes are not usually noticed until the 70s and beyond. These statements are based on data from studies where averages were calculated for each age group. Within each age group, however, there are wide variations in cognitive ability. The information presented here represents general findings about age-related cognitive change. They do not necessarily happen to everyone.
One study of intelligence over a lifetime found that by the age of 81, only 30-40% of study participants had a significant decline in mental ability. Two-thirds of people at this age had only a small amount of decline. And only certain cognitive abilities decline, while others may improve."
"Cognition refers to mental processes used for perceiving, remembering, and thinking. Most studies show that, in general, cognitive abilities are the greatest when people are in their 30s and 40s. Cognitive abilities stay about the same until the late 50s or early 60s, at which point they begin to decline, but to only a small degree. The effects of cognitive changes are not usually noticed until the 70s and beyond. These statements are based on data from studies where averages were calculated for each age group. Within each age group, however, there are wide variations in cognitive ability. The information presented here represents general findings about age-related cognitive change. They do not necessarily happen to everyone.
One study of intelligence over a lifetime found that by the age of 81, only 30-40% of study participants had a significant decline in mental ability. Two-thirds of people at this age had only a small amount of decline. And only certain cognitive abilities decline, while others may improve."
Bob Hoover I'm sure had experience. But this guy didn't have a great history. I would be interested to see what TC recommends when they pull the plane out out of building. So far I've heard of a engine sputter and a loss of control from the looks of it.
p.s. Cat Driver, try not to get your panties in knot when someone miss spells something.
p.s. Cat Driver, try not to get your panties in knot when someone miss spells something.
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Cat Driver
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Please don't lecture me about your spelling....but don't feel to bad a lot of posters here can't figure out the difference between there and their.p.s. Cat Driver, try not to get your panties in knot when someone miss spells something.
Anyhow back to the question I asked you, what changes do you think are needed for us old guys when we take our medicals?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
No Benwa, I meant to bad.Did you mean too bad ?
I love it when people mess up while picking on others spelling mistakes.
I do believe in the sentence I typed the use of to was correct.....my wife who has a masters in education agrees.
But all that aside, I do feel my question regarding medicals for older people needs to be discussed, don't you?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I think I'm not going to go down that road with you since you seem to be an old guy. I wasn't exactly targeting older wiser pilots. But since most people tend not live past 80ish I have to wonder if medical reasons played a part in this or not. Just putting it out there...
Trust me cat driver. I have the up most respect for older people, unlike some of the younger adults out "there", who grow up thinking the world owes them a favor.
Trust me cat driver. I have the up most respect for older people, unlike some of the younger adults out "there", who grow up thinking the world owes them a favor.
Last edited by privateer on Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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No problem privateer.
And for what ever it is worth we all make posts that bring comments from others....hell I bet I get more flack for what I post than you could get in a life time.
And for what ever it is worth we all make posts that bring comments from others....hell I bet I get more flack for what I post than you could get in a life time.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Justwannafly
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:12 am
- Location: Cyberspace
http://home.nyc.rr.com/mobeatty/airpranes.htmlFamilyGuy wrote:Why is this on our forum.
The "eyewitness" rady on TV creary said it was an "airprane" that hit the building.
We don't fry airpranes....
http://chianmin.blogspot.com/2006/05/ou ... onary.html
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Bookem Lou
- Rank 3
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- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:31 pm
To
preposition
1. (used for expressing motion or direction toward a point, person, place, or thing approached and reached, as opposed to from): They came to the house.
2. (used for expressing direction or motion or direction toward something) in the direction of; toward: from north to south.
3. (used for expressing limit of movement or extension): He grew to six feet.
Too
–adverb
1. in addition; also; furthermore; moreover: young, clever, and rich too.
2. to an excessive extent or degree; beyond what is desirable, fitting, or right: too sick to travel.
3. more, as specified, than should be: too near the fire.
4. (used as an affirmative to contradict a negative statement): I am too!
5. extremely; very: She wasn't too pleased with his behavior.
Cat, your wife is incorrect.
preposition
1. (used for expressing motion or direction toward a point, person, place, or thing approached and reached, as opposed to from): They came to the house.
2. (used for expressing direction or motion or direction toward something) in the direction of; toward: from north to south.
3. (used for expressing limit of movement or extension): He grew to six feet.
Too
–adverb
1. in addition; also; furthermore; moreover: young, clever, and rich too.
2. to an excessive extent or degree; beyond what is desirable, fitting, or right: too sick to travel.
3. more, as specified, than should be: too near the fire.
4. (used as an affirmative to contradict a negative statement): I am too!
5. extremely; very: She wasn't too pleased with his behavior.
Cat, your wife is incorrect.
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Check Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:26 am
This has, as usual, dropped into the depths of depravity about something that none of us aviation folks need.
A guy died in a Seneca when it drilled into an apartment building. None of us in the business need to attract that kind of media attention.
It even had short mention on CNN. Terrorists anyone? --- Eh, Eh??
The poor bugger doing the flying either had a really bad day with the aeroplane or he had lousy training in engine failures and preflight inspections.
I certainly would not want to end up in the side of a fairly immovable object like an apartment building.
I have a couple thousand hours of PA-34 time. They all have counter-rotating props and are not all that hard to handle, unless something goes really, really wrong. Even the old originals were mild, easy to fly on one engine, pussycats, except on runway contact. The older ones "CLUNKED" down with the nose wheel but no one seemed to mind in the back.
God speed to the pilot flying that machine. I hope his next missed approach is not straight down hill with St. Peter.
Let's let this one go now.
A guy died. I never met or got to know the guy, but I know his family sure is missing him now! They now get the unpleasant job of getting his remains to the cemetery.
Just another obituary in the Vancouver papers, I guess. Whoda known eh?
I think the guy did his best (unless he intended to commit suicide) and wound up not winning the race with the sometimes unforgiving nature of how aviation goes sometimes.
...
A guy died in a Seneca when it drilled into an apartment building. None of us in the business need to attract that kind of media attention.
It even had short mention on CNN. Terrorists anyone? --- Eh, Eh??
The poor bugger doing the flying either had a really bad day with the aeroplane or he had lousy training in engine failures and preflight inspections.
I certainly would not want to end up in the side of a fairly immovable object like an apartment building.
I have a couple thousand hours of PA-34 time. They all have counter-rotating props and are not all that hard to handle, unless something goes really, really wrong. Even the old originals were mild, easy to fly on one engine, pussycats, except on runway contact. The older ones "CLUNKED" down with the nose wheel but no one seemed to mind in the back.
God speed to the pilot flying that machine. I hope his next missed approach is not straight down hill with St. Peter.
Let's let this one go now.
A guy died. I never met or got to know the guy, but I know his family sure is missing him now! They now get the unpleasant job of getting his remains to the cemetery.
Just another obituary in the Vancouver papers, I guess. Whoda known eh?
I think the guy did his best (unless he intended to commit suicide) and wound up not winning the race with the sometimes unforgiving nature of how aviation goes sometimes.
...
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bob sacamano
- Rank (9)
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- Location: I'm not in Kansas anymore
Cat Driver wrote:....but don't feel to bad a lot of posters here can't figure out the difference between there and their.
Cat Driver wrote:I do believe in the sentence I typed the use of to was correct.....my wife who has a masters in education agrees.
Bookem Lou wrote:To
preposition
1. (used for expressing motion or direction toward a point, person, place, or thing approached and reached, as opposed to from): They came to the house.
2. (used for expressing direction or motion or direction toward something) in the direction of; toward: from north to south.
3. (used for expressing limit of movement or extension): He grew to six feet.
Too
–adverb
1. in addition; also; furthermore; moreover: young, clever, and rich too.
2. to an excessive extent or degree; beyond what is desirable, fitting, or right: too sick to travel.
3. more, as specified, than should be: too near the fire.
4. (used as an affirmative to contradict a negative statement): I am too!
5. extremely; very: She wasn't too pleased with his behavior.
Cat, your wife is incorrect.
Maybe if she had a Masters of Education instead of a Masters in education, she would've corrected you?
Grammar Police, To Serve and Correct.
Don't give Cat and his wife grief over the misuse of "to". They're old and are prone to making errors.
Just kidding Cat Driver. I actually truly believe that age should not be an absolute factor for pilot licensing. Indirectly, I think that as certain potential risks increase due to factors such as aging, additional scrutiny needs to be introduced. Perhaps some sort of competency check every year.
Just kidding Cat Driver. I actually truly believe that age should not be an absolute factor for pilot licensing. Indirectly, I think that as certain potential risks increase due to factors such as aging, additional scrutiny needs to be introduced. Perhaps some sort of competency check every year.
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Cat Driver
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I'm 100% behind the competency check every year.....maybe with todays computer driven technology we could have a computer test sort of a flight simulator program where the responses to airplane handling would be marked on response time and proper technique by the computer?Just kidding Cat Driver. I actually truly believe that age should not be an absolute factor for pilot licensing. Indirectly, I think that as certain potential risks increase due to factors such as aging, additional scrutiny needs to be introduced. Perhaps some sort of competency check every year.
This age thing is a difficult issue because it varies so much from person to person.
For what ever it is worth I made the decision to retire from full time flying at the age of seventy because that seemed like a good number. When I retired I was flying as an air display pilot in Europe. My aviation doctor was concerned when I told him I was going to train to compete in the unlimited aerobatics contests, he made me take an extra test for cardiovascular health as he felt that the repetitive high G loads would eventually do me in.
Anyhow I quit my training for unlimited aeros as it just was to hard on my poor old body and the pain was not worth the effort.
I am not sure where we should make the decision we are getting to old and retire before we do something stupid. I am satisfied that my decision was right for me because I had had enough of being a working pilot anyhow and I can still fly if I so choose to.
Maybe we should wait until we lose interest in looking at pussy to quit flying?
For someone who only finished grade eight I think I'm doing O.K....Don't give Cat and his wife grief over the misuse of "to". They're old and are prone to making errors.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I've met the man, and I believe he flew with the RAF in WWII.
I flew with another octogenarian who built an RV6A with a 180hp Lycoming fitted with a constant speed propeller.
The problem with age is the physic lets you down... In this case hearing was a problem compounded by the use of non standard RT here at times... I had to fly with this gentleman while he did his 25 hour test schedule.
He flew extremely well. If some of the 20 year olds flew that well I 'd be a little happier.
The problem with such an advanced age is that we need to be on the lookout for sudden changes...
In aviation the medical check is one way, and periodic flight reviews are another.
As pilots we also need to be prepared to give it up, or to take another pilot with us.
Young pilots can suffer from invincibility, while elderly pilots may suffer from being stubborn.
One pilot, who is famous here, had to give up flying some high performance aircraft because the insurance companies would not insure him at such an advanced age.
Insurance companies are the regulators.
In my own experience, I had one chap select the gear down after the engines failed... "Bad idea that ****" I said. We were already low, and now we were definately going into the mud.
At 200 feet the stall warner beeped on and off, 'fine' I thought, 'if you're going into the mud pancake it in'...
At 100 feet the right engine found some fuel
She yawed and rolled and we were going to die.
Not quite, aerobatic flying has its automatic reactions... I reached over and slammed the levers back, while adding full right rudder, wrenched the control column and almost had it level as the aeroplane pancaked into the mud.
It wasn't a bad landing...
The owner had 45 years experience in twins, vastly more than me.
Transport gave me some trouble over being there... I learned I can't be a passenger in anything I am rated to fly.
If I hadn't been there??? I almost wasn't. It had been a late Friday night, but I said I'd go along for the ride. The preflight was done, and the engines ready to start when I arrived.
A Seneca has five hours fuel right? If you do one takeoff it might, do several short flights and it doesn't.
I met an old fellow in a Seneca once when I was in the circuit with a student.
Climbing out, I suggested a left turn onto crosswind (07). I was in the back of the Citabria.
As we started the turn I saw an aircraft out of the corner of my eye so we rolled the wings level as a Seneca passed our nose at 800 feet.
If we'd continued our climbing turn we would have been at 800 feet too close to him for comfort, and perhaps even at the same place!
The Seneca had crossed Delta Airpark at an angle at below 1,000 feet to join downwind at Boundary Bay.
Later I had a few words with the pilot concerned.
Now both of these elderly Seneca pilots have gone, one died of natural causes, the other we might never know.
I flew with another octogenarian who built an RV6A with a 180hp Lycoming fitted with a constant speed propeller.
The problem with age is the physic lets you down... In this case hearing was a problem compounded by the use of non standard RT here at times... I had to fly with this gentleman while he did his 25 hour test schedule.
He flew extremely well. If some of the 20 year olds flew that well I 'd be a little happier.
The problem with such an advanced age is that we need to be on the lookout for sudden changes...
In aviation the medical check is one way, and periodic flight reviews are another.
As pilots we also need to be prepared to give it up, or to take another pilot with us.
Young pilots can suffer from invincibility, while elderly pilots may suffer from being stubborn.
One pilot, who is famous here, had to give up flying some high performance aircraft because the insurance companies would not insure him at such an advanced age.
Insurance companies are the regulators.
In my own experience, I had one chap select the gear down after the engines failed... "Bad idea that ****" I said. We were already low, and now we were definately going into the mud.
At 200 feet the stall warner beeped on and off, 'fine' I thought, 'if you're going into the mud pancake it in'...
At 100 feet the right engine found some fuel
She yawed and rolled and we were going to die. Not quite, aerobatic flying has its automatic reactions... I reached over and slammed the levers back, while adding full right rudder, wrenched the control column and almost had it level as the aeroplane pancaked into the mud.
It wasn't a bad landing...
The owner had 45 years experience in twins, vastly more than me.
Transport gave me some trouble over being there... I learned I can't be a passenger in anything I am rated to fly.
If I hadn't been there??? I almost wasn't. It had been a late Friday night, but I said I'd go along for the ride. The preflight was done, and the engines ready to start when I arrived.
A Seneca has five hours fuel right? If you do one takeoff it might, do several short flights and it doesn't.
I met an old fellow in a Seneca once when I was in the circuit with a student.
Climbing out, I suggested a left turn onto crosswind (07). I was in the back of the Citabria.
As we started the turn I saw an aircraft out of the corner of my eye so we rolled the wings level as a Seneca passed our nose at 800 feet.
If we'd continued our climbing turn we would have been at 800 feet too close to him for comfort, and perhaps even at the same place!
The Seneca had crossed Delta Airpark at an angle at below 1,000 feet to join downwind at Boundary Bay.
Later I had a few words with the pilot concerned.
Now both of these elderly Seneca pilots have gone, one died of natural causes, the other we might never know.
Hey Cat Driver, there is a such a program to test cognitive abilities in pilots...go here for a look..http://cogscreen.com/overview.shtml Many an air carrier use this for aircrew selection. The NHL players association use a form of this software to establish a base line so that when you get your first concussion you can compare your post concussion performance to how you were when you joined the association. I would assume that if there was a big change you may get medicalled out.
Bottom line, this software works best if you establish a base line early on and test every few years to determine any major changes that may arise and perhaps. adjust your training accordingly
Bottom line, this software works best if you establish a base line early on and test every few years to determine any major changes that may arise and perhaps. adjust your training accordingly
eieioei ei owe wrote:But your wife, your poor poor wife has been brought into this now. It's not about just you anymore and now you've let your pride blind you as you dragged your educated wife into the disturbing world of Avcanada. She'll never be the same.....
you wouldn't be talking about that Seneca EI-EIO that Keiran O'Connor had in Weston outside Dublin, would you?
Here's a starting point...
Mr. Garrison, God rest him, appears to have been unable, at a minimum, to control the aircraft's altitude and direction. He appears to have hit a building in a 45 degree right bank with enough speed to carry through the apartment and into the hallway, after both wings sheared off. There is no radio communication.
There is the anomaly of the gear being down, if that report is accurate.
Pilot incapacitation is obviously a possibility. We'll know soon enough.
The poor man's dead. He lived a rich life in aviation and we should show him the respect he deserves by waiting to hear from the experts at the TSB.
Mr. Garrison, God rest him, appears to have been unable, at a minimum, to control the aircraft's altitude and direction. He appears to have hit a building in a 45 degree right bank with enough speed to carry through the apartment and into the hallway, after both wings sheared off. There is no radio communication.
There is the anomaly of the gear being down, if that report is accurate.
Pilot incapacitation is obviously a possibility. We'll know soon enough.
The poor man's dead. He lived a rich life in aviation and we should show him the respect he deserves by waiting to hear from the experts at the TSB.
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vanishing point
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http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/index.html
The man flew 30 missions in a Lancaster. Those with that kind of experience, speculate all you want. The rest of you.....wait for the official report.
My condolences and sympathy to his family.
The man flew 30 missions in a Lancaster. Those with that kind of experience, speculate all you want. The rest of you.....wait for the official report.
My condolences and sympathy to his family.
