A-320 scrapes wing on runway - video.

[bin landin]

Doc asked

Sheila.."When was the pilot supposed to abort...?"

Did it every occur to you that everything might have been stabalized until very near the end, and then they were , in fact, trying to abort and had mechanical issues....

I did not see anything at all in that video that would allow anyone here to dismiss the possibility that they continued the last phase because of a glitch in the power coming up, or a control glitch, as was posted by someone above. did you bother to read that post? Or like the others, were you to busy demonstrating your knowledge of all things aviation by viewing a brief video clip and being able to ascertain exactly when that crew should have aborted.

I am going to keep saying it again and again. Lets show some professionalism here. Some compassion. And lets all not jump to conclusions and lynch the crew. Let them get a fair hearing and then we can hang them.

[fogghorn]

That has to go down in the anals as one of the worst xwind lgd attempts ever. If the xwind comp. was 55kts, what the hell were they trying to do by landing there - I hope they passed out the depends before attempting it? That was just outrageous - my 2 cents worth of ranting

fogg that's annals. What you wrote means something entirely different and it delves into an aspect of your personal life far too intimately for my taste.

Yikes that must have been a freudian slip

[xsbank]

It seems to me that the approach was stable, some correction for gusts but not excessive. It seemed that during the flare, when he removed the crab as is proper procedure, a stronger gust picked up the upwind wing and that's when the strike occurred (swept wing rotating into relative wind with a sudden gust?).

"29028G48KT"

How do YOU do a crosswind landing in a swept-wing aircraft?

Has anyone been able to determine the cross-wind limitations for an A320??

[Meatservo]

For what it's worth (my opinion plus a buck will get you a small coffee at Timmy's), looks to me like those guys were right on centreline and got nailed by a gust as they were kicking out the crab. It must have been pretty scary. I don't fly big low-wing jets, but it seems to me they are pretty vulnerable during that transition between crabbing and booting the nose straight at the last minute. I mean, they can't drop a wing (much) and land on the upwind main gear like a small high-winged aeroplane, it looks like they just rely on inertia during the last fraction of a second while they yaw the plane straight to keep them from drifting sideways. Catch a gust during that split second, and I bet it gets interesting.

From a purely human-factors standpoint, there seems to be three basic opinions here, some of you guys wouldn't have tried to land, some of you guys would have tried to land and succeeded, because you are just that good, and some of you guys think the crew got caught out by a big surprise at the last minute. I'm one of those guys. Further, assuming they did get nailed by a big surprise at the last minute, there were always two possible outcomes, one is they roll the plane into a ball on the infield, and the other is that they fly away and live. I don't know what the LuftHansa chief pilot will make of the whole performance, but I hope their friends bought them a beer that night.

I'll finish my pedantic little speech with a quote from one of my favorite songs:

"Sometimes you do,
Sometimes you don't;
This time... he sure did"

[SQ]

Has anyone been able to determine the cross-wind limitations for an A320??

T/O 29 kts gusting 38 kts
Ldg: 33 kts gusting 38 kts

[xsbank]

Thanks SQ; good post, Meat!

[Tim Tam]

Has anyone been able to determine the cross-wind limitations for an A320??

T/O 29 kts gusting 38 kts
Ldg: 33 kts gusting 38 kts

Now, we all know what "Demonstrated crosswind" means right?

Not a limitation per se, although it is found in the Limitations section, hmmmm

Pucker factor for sure...

Landing Checklist:

1) Flaps......................up
2) Radar.....................off
3) Ginch....................soiled

[SQ]

you're welcome XS
some very interesting things here :
http://www.airbus.com/en/corporate/ethics/safety_lib/

just scroll down to landing tech and then xwinds

[mulligan]

If the wind was 40 degrees off the runway at 28g38 then a landing doesn't seem to be out of the question, especially if the runway was dry. I've been doing this for about 30 years and it strikes me that the only people who can make a meaningful comment are the flight crew and the cheif pilot who has heard their account in detail. There are way more factors and variables than can be ascertained by watching a short video.

[fogghorn]

Doc asked

Sheila.."When was the pilot supposed to abort...?"

Did it every occur to you that everything might have been stabalized until very near the end, and then they were , in fact, trying to abort and had mechanical issues....

I did not see anything at all in that video that would allow anyone here to dismiss the possibility that they continued the last phase because of a glitch in the power coming up, or a control glitch, as was posted by someone above. did you bother to read that post? Or like the others, were you to busy demonstrating your knowledge of all things aviation by viewing a brief video clip and being able to ascertain exactly when that crew should have aborted.

I am going to keep saying it again and again. Lets show some professionalism here. Some compassion. And lets all not jump to conclusions and lynch the crew. Let them get a fair hearing and then we can hang them.

Oh Bin Landin - completely off topic, but could you fill us in on what goes on at those J dub meetins? I am sure I speak for everyone when I say we are dying to know

[bin landin]

Fogg

I hate to disappoint, but I have absolutely no idea what a "J Dub meeting is" Even in my advanced old age I try to keep up with the latest jargon and acronyms. Help me out here.

I did ask a few people around here and they did not know either, but they did tell me that you were not speaking for them....do you want to reconsider how "sure" you are that you are speaking for everybody? Or are you just as "sure" of this as you are of all the relevant facts you used to make your insightful observations and comments about this incident.

My comments on this thread were intended to ask people to stop doing exactly what they acuse the media of doing. wildly speculating and armchair analyzing without all the facts.I really dont know of many older experienced pilots who didnt think "there but for the grace of god go I". We all make a bad decision during a career. Some of us are lucky and learn. some are lucky and will confuse it with skill and try it again. Others are not lucky, and it seems if anyone is in the latter category there are dozens here who seem to take an unusual delight in crucifyling them.

[Redwine]

Can't send boys to do a mans job....

Seems a huge gust of wind right there in the flare... Why try and be a hero on this one day out of thousands just to risk life and career? Mother Nature ALWAYS wins...Bet those repairs will cost much more than a canceled stupid flight.

[Rudder Bug]

I've been doing this for about 30 years and it strikes me that the only people who can make a meaningful comment are the flight crew and the cheif pilot who has heard their account in detail. There are way more factors and variables than can be ascertained by watching a short video.

Right on Mr. Mulligan. Lots of conclusions with no sound information, once again, as usual here, every time a mishap occurs, we read expert critics knowing the whole story before the aircraft comes to a stop.

[Flybabe]

bin landin - "J Dub" is a reference to your beloved Jehovah's Witnesses

[fogghorn]

If the wind was 40 degrees off the runway at 28g38 then a landing doesn't seem to be out of the question, especially if the runway was dry. I've been doing this for about 30 years and it strikes me that the only people who can make a meaningful comment are the flight crew and the cheif pilot who has heard their account in detail. There are way more factors and variables than can be ascertained by watching a short video.

That was my point on the wind factor, needless to say - every accident/incident comes at the end of an event chain. We critics are not privy to everything involved.

Now if Bin Landin could just give us the inside scoop on my query, I would be a happy camper

[bin landin]

flybabe...thanks. Made me chuckle. I thought it was an aviation term

Fogghorn. sorry, but I am not a J.W. If you are referring to my profile, it was a play on words using protection (as in keeping our actual identities secret).

I do find it somewhat interesting that you keep bringing it up. Try and wrap your mind around this instead. Some of us, who love aviation and make it our career, actually would like to see all in the profession act as ,,,well, professionals. And show some compassion for those who have suffered some misfortune in their career. Perhaps, instead of waiting with baited breath for my response, which, unfortunately, I can not give you, take a few moments and put yourself in the place of the crew here and imagine how you would like to be reading this about yourself. Particularily, if it was something other than crew failure....and I have not seen even one post on here where someone claims to have all the facts. If you think it cant happen to you...think again. We are all just one bad decisiion and a little bit of bad luck away from this. I have been extraordinarily lucky flying for the last 40 years, but if something should happen in the next two years before I retire, I would hope that my fellow aviators would provide me with condolances and support and not gossip and criticism.

[MUSKEG]

Firstly we know nothing of the situation, was the alternate worse, was fuel an issue, plus a hundred other snarios that I am sure were discussed. You would think with all the intelligence displayed here that some would know that small aircraft crosswind landing technique is not an option with large underwing aircraft. You just fly them on as straight and level as possible. Somewhere out there is a video of I think a 767 doing crosswind testing somewhere in the dessert and that is exactly what they do. Level is required to keep engine pod from striking the ground. Do you not notice these things when you obsereve proceeding at a major A/P. What works in a float plane certainly has little significance here. We are used to applying control inputs and getting immediate response. Large aircraft just do not behave like that. Well done to the crew of that aircraft. I hate to think of the roast you would have received on this forum had you not done such a bang up job.

[Doc]

They did a "bang up job"....isn't that the whole point? Perhaps the conditions were beyond the aircraft's limits.....I've just always thought the wheels were there to hit the ground first? Guess not.

[Rockie]

You can in fact use the sideslip technique to land big aircraft in a crosswind, but in a really strong crosswind striking the engine on the ground is a factor so there is also the "decrab" technique where the aircraft is aligned with the runway centreline at the last moment with the wings level and the wheels touch before any downwind drift develops. You can also use a combination of the two methods. It looks to me from the video that the pilot flying was trying to use the decrab method, but I don't know what his intent was because I wasn't there.

The aircraft stopped descending at around 50 feet and slowly worked its way down to the ground from there rapidly eating up usable runway which I'm sure was on the Captain's mind along with everything else, but I don't know for sure because I wasn't there.

It takes up to 10 seconds for turbofan engines to spool up from idle in a go-around situation and results in what is call a "low energy go-around" which can be a very risky thing in jets. It occurs when the speed is decaying below VREF, there is insufficient thrust to maintain speed and the aircraft is descending. The go-around procedure from that situation is very different than a conventional go-around, and it looks to me like the crew also had to contend with that at the same time as the shock from the hairy ass wing drop and ground contact. But I don't know for sure because I wasn't there.

The pilot flying may also have had a poorly timed sharp abdominal pain from a gigantic fart building up in his intestine right at the flare that distracted him from his carefully planned landing. But again, I don't know because I wasn't there.

I'm not judging this crew at all because I know nothing about the circumstances outside, or more importantly inside the cockpit.

[Doc]

Rockie, let's see if I have this straight? You weren't there?

[rotateandfly]

Hey guys, i think i have some more info to clear up some things, or well to fuel the forum fire

The said approach to runway 23 at Hamburg Airport was flown by the female first officer, a 24-year old just three months out of the Lufthansa pilot school. The crosswinds which were reported to be @28 gusting 48 were within limits, and the captain elected to land on runway 23 instead of Rwy 33 because Runway 23 has a better ILS which was favorable at the time for those conditions. The approach was stable and not even a tenth of a dot off on the localizer until the flare. When the gust pretty much blew them off the runway there wasnt much they could do. Captain flew the go around and safely landed on Rwy 33 this time.

Of course its easy to bash them now, but just put yourself in the same position. She shouldve called for a go around earlier in the flare, same goes for the captain, but everyone makes mistakes. There was no violation of SOP's, everything was within limits, just at the wrong place at the wrong time. And besides, they werent the only ones going for that runway that day. The other people were just lucky enough not to get blown off the friggin runway right in the flare. I say we show them some support and quit bashing, i know thats what im doing.

[fogghorn]

I wish people would quit using the phrase "blown off the runway" - thats something lame the media came up with. I don't have a clue why the left wing dipped - whether that was a screwed up control input or something else, but that is why everything went sideways with the landing. If the right side had stayed down they may have still whacked the wing tip, but at least they would have been tracking straight. I think I need to go into the JW witness protection program

[shitdisturber]

Personally I don't have a problem with being blown off the runway, or on the runway, or in a hotel room, whatever. As long as she's good looking.

[lilfssister]

Off topic but:

The said approach to runway 23 at Hamburg Airport was flown by the female first officer"

If the first officer was male, would you have said "the male first officer" or "the first officer"?

[Rudder Bug]

Well said lilfssister!