Lets turn off the GPS

[sstaurus]

sstraus wrote

all look like blobs how am I supposed to recognize anything?? Am I the only one who finds this?

No you are not . You will find in time that pretty soon the lakes actually look different and will look like they do on the map. Just keep at it. Trust me it will come.

But why the difference in quality? On the tbay map the lakes and features are bang on and look identical, but not so on the winnipeg VNC. Hmmm oh well...

[Highsea]

My first time flying outside of training the CP turn off the gps and said here a map. I did get the GPS back that summer at all. My map reading got really good fast..... then then this year, I was flying and an passenager ask me why I didn't have the gps on at all. I had the map on my leg and was reading it for a change.

[Cat Driver]

By not using a GPS you are depriving yourself of several very useful bits of information such as accurate G.S. checks to find the best altitude for the higest G.S. and also it is far easier to hold an accurate track with the GPS thus saving more time and fuel..... not to mention you have a constant upgraded ETA.

The ability to read a map and navigate is nothing more than a basic skill and not rocket science.

Therefore it is good airmanship to use every aid avialable at all times.

[MichaelP]

Therefore it is good airmanship to use every aid avialable at all times.

I was asked this last night, could the GPS be used to find Langley at night if the engine failed?
You'd be a fool not to select NRST and go for it if the need arose.

A good pilot will have developed his/her map reading skills to the point where there is situational awareness inside the brain that confirms what the radio navigation aids are telling you.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

My GPS has the " Zones of Safety " features,

You enter the power off glide rate of the airplane you are flying and there is a green circle around every airport on the screen that tells you if you are inside the green circle you can glide to that airport from your present height and position.

When flying long ferry flights especially over long stretches of water such as the Mediterrian or the North Atlantic at very high all up weight where an engine failure meant I would have a drift down problem I entered my drift down number in the GPS and it would then tell me if I was in range of an airport on one engine.

[square]

Well before we all go and measure to see who's the biggest superpilot let's not forget the GPS beats the hell out of all of us in a lot of respects. It's the difference between 'oh about 20 south of the field, estimating around 10' and the exact numbers. It may not sound like a big deal but it is when you have 10 different aircraft from different directions, at different speeds, etc, all converging on the same uncontrolled airport and trying to figure out a sequence without the jets having to shoot the missed or god knows what else.

[Strega]

Well before we all go and measure to see who's the biggest superpilot let's not forget the GPS beats the hell out of all of us in a lot of respects. It's the difference between 'oh about 20 south of the field, estimating around 10' and the exact numbers. It may not sound like a big deal but it is when you have 10 different aircraft from different directions, at different speeds, etc, all converging on the same uncontrolled airport and trying to figure out a sequence without the jets having to shoot the missed or god knows what else.

If you know how to navigate without a GPS, Then you can say that your 20 south of the field, when in fact, you ARE 20 south of the field!

[MichaelP]

Many people have no idea of distances and yet with Canada's grid system, 8 blocks to a mile (SM) it's quite easy
With or without GPS, pilots still get me looking when they call up over the Nickl when I am actually over that point... Then it turns out they're two or three miles away!

I don't think the GPS will make much difference to the pilot's accuracy of reporting position, and 7.2 miles east of where-ever does not mean much to me.
Over a point on my map or even very near to a point, accurately stating distance and bearing is much better.
IMHO "I am passing just south of the race track" is better than "I am 2 miles south of the race track" when I can see you less than a mile from it!

Flying over Pitt Meadows in the DA40 I could see a couple of aircraft on the ground on the G1000 TIS... You should be in the habit of turning the transponder on when give takeoff clearance and shouldn't be taxying around with it on... This is important for when you land that airline job.

As for glide distance... In the Diamonds the circle would probably go off scale if it is set for the circuit... In the Cherokee it would be considerably smaller...

[square]

If you know how to navigate without a GPS, Then you can say that your 20 south of the field, when in fact, you ARE 20 south of the field!

Of course you can, but is that good enough? Can you give an exact distance and exact ETA when you're coordinating with someone else who just happens to call when you're 13 miles out and you're busy with something else? And where do you work out your ground speed from? The FDs? Your groundspeed check from 30 minutes ago, 80 miles back at a different altitude while you were level? So now you're faster so oh okay let's try to work backwards with the numbers here. Well, you're on approach, you have other things on the go and everyone else coming in needs to know the exact numbers and right now. A difference of 30 seconds IS important. It's the difference between #1 and #2, or in the case of busy uncontrolled airports (which there are MANY of) #5 and #7.

I knew someone would pipe up with "well if you can't do that yourself you oughta go back to school" but the fact is the GPS is _better_ at it and makes things a lot smoother and safer.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I knew someone would pipe up with "well if you can't do that yourself you oughta go back to school" but the fact is the GPS is _better_ at it and makes things a lot smoother and safer.

A position report based on eyeballing the ground and your map can be very different depending on your height above ground, at five hundred feet your estimate to what is below you can be fairly close, conversely from five thousand feet you are subject to a lot more error in estimating your position.

GPS gives you exceptional accuracy and multi bits of information.

To suggest that using GPS is in some way an indication that a pilot is not using good airmanship is just plain goofy.

[BoostedNihilist]

.

[MichaelP]

To suggest that using GPS is in some way an indication that a pilot is not using good airmanship is just plain goofy.

True, but in some instances it can be like using a cellphone while speeding down a busy street... Mucking about with a GPS in the circuit or when there's a lot of traffic around you can be construed as bad airmanship.
Garmin correctly state that you should stop the aircraft if you wish to do something like program the G1000 while on the ground.
Cellphone users might be inclined to doing it on the move... We''ll have to see if the future statistics for taxying accidents reflect G1000 programming while moving!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Model Number?

http://www.anywheremap.com/

[Chuck Ellsworth]

True, but in some instances it can be like using a cellphone while speeding down a busy street... Mucking about with a GPS in the circuit or when there's a lot of traffic around you can be construed as bad airmanship.

Sure, and scratching your nuts when you are in front of a crowd of mixed gender people is also poor decision making.

A fu.kin GPS programmed to go from A to B does not require much mucking around with to get a quick position check and situational awareness from it.

[MichaelP]

Oh sorry! If you have this problem here's the cure: http://www.nutpowder.com

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Michael let an old pro give you some advice.

The real test of a tough bastard is a guy who can spend an hour giving a speech to a crowded room with a dose of crabs and never scratch his nuts once....

[Strega]

Many people have no idea of distances and yet with Canada's grid system, 8 blocks to a mile (SM) it's quite easy
With or without GPS, pilots still get me looking when they call up over the Nickl when I am actually over that point... Then it turns out they're two or three miles away!

I don't think the GPS will make much difference to the pilot's accuracy of reporting position, and 7.2 miles east of where-ever does not mean much to me.
Over a point on my map or even very near to a point, accurately stating distance and bearing is much better.
IMHO "I am passing just south of the race track" is better than "I am 2 miles south of the race track" when I can see you less than a mile from it!

Flying over Pitt Meadows in the DA40 I could see a couple of aircraft on the ground on the G1000 TIS... You should be in the habit of turning the transponder on when give takeoff clearance and shouldn't be taxying around with it on... This is important for when you land that airline job.

As for glide distance... In the Diamonds the circle would probably go off scale if it is set for the circuit... In the Cherokee it would be considerably smaller...

Good call!

I witnessed a bonehead in YQT turn his transponder on while taxing up to the hold short line for rwy 25 (or is it 24?) well there was a WJ 737 on short final, and the vis wasnt the greatest, well the TCAS went nuts in the 37 and they commenced an overshoot. It was rather comical!

[BoostedNihilist]

.

[Spokes]

To suggest that using GPS is in some way an indication that a pilot is not using good airmanship is just plain goofy.

True, but in some instances it can be like using a cellphone while speeding down a busy street... Mucking about with a GPS in the circuit or when there's a lot of traffic around you can be construed as bad airmanship.
Garmin correctly state that you should stop the aircraft if you wish to do something like program the G1000 while on the ground.
Cellphone users might be inclined to doing it on the move... We''ll have to see if the future statistics for taxying accidents reflect G1000 programming while moving!

So I guess I should not really be making a cell call while inthe circuit to get step by step directions on programing my gps?

[square]

So I guess I should not really be making a cell call while inthe circuit to get step by step directions on programing my gps?

A real pilot would do it on power-off teardrop circuits at a busy uncontrolled international airport. Which is pretty fun.

[polar one]

Spokes:

So I guess I should not really be making a cell call while inthe circuit to get step by step directions on programing my gps?

You are darn rights you shouldnt.....cell phone use in the circuit is restricted only to warn your buddy that you just flew over the Captains house and the Captain noticed his car parked in the driveway.....

Now I have a question. why is it, with all these posters claiming their excellent piloting skills, that even with a GPS they cant get their ETA right. This morning (I will use a fictious name and place...Call the plane one from ***edited to protect the guilty*** and the place *****EDITED***. Guys asked their ETA...replyed "about 5 mins" seemed fair enough. Number on the GPS plus a little for slowdown and joining the pattern....TWELVE MINUTES....TWELVE BLOODY MINUTES Later they called a three mile final...this was VFR. They are the third one I have seen in as many days. This is not a student pilot in a 150, but a supposed two man professional crew flying a turbine without any other traffic around.

Seems to me before the days of GPS we used to try to be plus or minus 3 minutes on a leg.
so, my bragging pilotage posters, when your GPS says you are "x" minutes out, learn how to figure in the extra time. As to position awarenss, two days ago there was a crew called turning final and we watched them on the base leg for about two more minutes. This was about 20 minutes after they called 12 minutes out, and there was traffic conflicting in the air and holding on the ground based on their stated ETA. all of which could have gotten in and out if they had been accurate.. You know who you are...that is not professional.

God help us all if they take GPS away from some of you.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Polar one, I believe that four minutes was the allowance for position reports when giving IFR estimates to the next reporting point.....before GPS .....say before 1990 or so.

[MichaelP]

Four minutes was what we grew up to know as the amount of warning time we'd get if the Russians decided to fire off a nuclear missile!
For us it meant waiting to meet our maker, for an East German girl I knew it meant doing several things... "It's possible to survive a nuclear bomb" she said and went on about how... Interesting stuff, of course in a relevant respect the EMP would wreck our GPS's in any case!

Inaccurate ETAs
It's back to flying without a GPS and knowing where you are, having good dead reckoning skills and good situational awareness.
If you can navigate well without the GPS then the GPS becomes a greater asset rather than a fix for inadequacy.
We need to understand the information the GPS is giving us to be able to give an accurate ETA.
With GPS it is so very simple, but good background knowledge can correct a wrong ETA before it leaves one's mouth.

[square]

Just how much background knowledge do you need to read a number aloud? "15 east for the downwind in 8," "5 mile final estimating 3," this is not matrix mechanics people!

[polar one]

Well, square, I am not arguing with you, but there is some subtley. Reading the numbers from the GPS seems to be all these people can do...not actually think.

Let me give you an example. They have the machine in a descent, at barber pole, with a 30 Kt tailwind. Look at the GPS and it says...oh say 8 minutes. Now sometime before they get to the airport they are going to have to slow down...alot. And that takes time. then they are going to start, if not complete to configure the aircraft for landing...more slowing down...And that tailwind...only at alitude, or maybe if on the ground they are going to whistle on a big downwind and then turn into, at approach speed that wind...

Yes, it only takes a few seconds to look at the GPS time, figure out a little bit for the slowdown etc...and give an accurate ETA. Listen around if you are working out of uncontrolled airports. These "professionals" just cant get it right. And sometimes they do cause conflict with other poeple who did get it right...havent seen to many that actually thought it might be them that was screwing up...usually they just blast in and have a good laugh about making th other person wait.. It is a little thing to some. to some of us it is just one more notch in the professional category.