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Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:42 am
by TopperHarley
Cat Driver wrote:Why do pilots require retraining every time they change employers and other professions do not?
If a pilot was flying xxx airplane and changes companies every six months that operate the same type of airplane why do they require xxx hours of retraining with each company?
To learn how to fly the airplane in accordance with the SOPs of the new company.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:38 pm
by Doc
Never Mind wrote:Doc,
When a new physician moves to another city his/her skills are completely transferable. When a tool and die maker commences employment in a new machine shop his/her skills are completely transferable. When an auto mechanic starts working for another garage his/her skills are completely transferable.
In all 3 cases the indviduals can take their skills with them and start working right away. There's no need for 5 to 10 thousand dollars worth of training upfront. Not completely so for pilots. Even if one knows how to fly the space shuttle a person needs to acquire a PPC, which is an investment for the company doing the hiring.
Is there anything wrong with the company trying to protect their investment? Is there anything wrong with the company trying to keep you 1 or 2 years? Can these smaller transition aviation companies remain viable if there's a constant outflow of pilots, leaving perhaps after 3 to 6 months?
I recently rented a moving truck for which I had to pay a $500.00 deposit. When I returned 2 days later the bill came out to $144.00 and then got my $500.00 deposit back. Here's a test for you Doc: How much did I pay for the moving truck rental? $144.00 or $644.00? Waiting for your answer...
Never Mind
Are you serious? You're comparing renting a truck to "buying" a job? Give your head a shake. You won't do it any damage....it's empty.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:34 pm
by Never Mind
Doc wrote:Are you serious? You're comparing renting a truck to "buying" a job? Give your head a shake. You won't do it any damage....it's empty.
Doc,
I knew in advance you'd be too shy to answer the question. You, and others, can quite easily see that the question posed was highlighting a principle. A training bond is not payment for a job if, and only IF, you get it back in the end.
This debate between you and other AvCanada readers, as well as myself, reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer tries to argue with a parrot. It is to no avail. In typical fashion Doc your response was predictable - insulting.
Since I abide by the rule of "do not repay evil with evil" I will withold my personal thoughts. I don't need to have the last word. I'll let you have it. I'll let "my eye pass over from seeing what is worthless" and just move on.
Never Mind
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
by Morav
Soooo what happens when you give 10 000 dollars for one of these jobs get hired, trained and then lose your medical for whatever reason??????
or how about if you get killed in a car accident on the way to work, is the money lost?
What happens if you get fired?
I don't understand why people are so willing to give their money away so quickly, just because everyone else is doing it. I think Doc is right if people keep on keeping on it will catch on. Once you see it catch on pilots will further get taken advantage of why? cause they have you by your $10 000 balls, and you will be too broke to quit and BUY another job.
nuff said
I know doc you talk about this shit all the time, but guys are listening thanks.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:06 pm
by Just another canuck
At VAL, if you're fired or quit, you get nothing back. You lose your entire 8 k or 15 k depending on the machine you are on. If you are laid off or the company goes bust, you get it all back.
At Bearskin, if you quit or are fired, you get a back the amount of time you put in... I think. If you are laid off or the company flops, not sure. I think you get it all back though.
Interest is also accounted for.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:39 pm
by Doc
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:06 pm
by Just another canuck
Doc wrote:There, you can sleep well tonight knowing that if VAL goes bust, you'll get your money back.....
Hmmmm... I'm not sure if you are calling bullshit on this or if you're just being really sarcastic. Anyway, the money goes in a GIC in your name. Contract states the cash is yours if the company goes tits up. Now, there's a way to do it if you don't have the money yourself as well. Same thing, GIC, but you have to pay a monthly interest payment. In the end, you are reimbursed though.
JAC
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:20 pm
by Cat Driver
Cat Driver wrote:
Why do pilots require retraining every time they change employers and other professions do not?
If a pilot was flying xxx airplane and changes companies every six months that operate the same type of airplane why do they require xxx hours of retraining with each company?
C-HRIS wrote:
To learn how to fly the airplane in accordance with the SOPs of the new company.
So if a pilot flies Navajo's one of the most common light twins and changes companies every six months for say ten years he has to learn twenty different SOP's for a Navajo?
Sounds real weird to me, but then what would I know about these exotic things.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:03 pm
by bob sacamano
Cat Driver wrote:Cat Driver wrote:
Why do pilots require retraining every time they change employers and other professions do not?
If a pilot was flying xxx airplane and changes companies every six months that operate the same type of airplane why do they require xxx hours of retraining with each company?
C-HRIS wrote:
To learn how to fly the airplane in accordance with the SOPs of the new company.
So if a pilot flies Navajo's one of the most common light twins and changes companies every six months for say ten years he has to learn twenty different SOP's for a Navajo?
Sounds real weird to me, but then what would I know about these exotic things.
Every 6 months, for 10 years, changing companies to fly the same plane...
You couldn't come up with anything better?
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:22 pm
by Cat Driver
Every 6 months, for 10 years, changing companies to fly the same plane...
You couldn't come up with anything better?
Is there a limit to how many SOP's there can be for one type of airplane?
How many times do you think a pilot would need to be trained on the same type.
So I'll try again.
If you fly a Navajo for company A. and a month later go to company B. and a month later go to company C. and have to be retrained each time could this go on forever?
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:26 pm
by looproll
I didn't realize Bearskin required money up-front! Thanks for bringing it to our attention. They are now scratched off the list of respectable companies. What a farce!
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:39 pm
by Conquest Driver
At VAL, if you're fired or quit, you get nothing back. You lose your entire 8 k or 15 k depending on the machine you are on. If you are laid off or the company goes bust, you get it all back.
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to call "bullshit" on the company goes bust part. And yes, with this economy, it coud indeed happen.
You take out the loan. VAL merely pays your interest and, at the end, the principal back to the bank. If VAL can't or won't do that, for any reason, you're on the hook. As far as I know, the funds from your loan go into VAL's general bank account.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:54 am
by The Other Kind
If you give them cash, they hold it for a year and refund it to you IF you still work there. NO interest, it's NOT put into a GIC, it's NOT put 'in trust' so if they go tits up, you're FUCKED. Essentially you are providing them with an interest free loan for 12 months with NO guarantee that they will repay you.
If you don't have the cash, they will 'help' you arrange a loan from CIBC and the money will be directly deposited into Voyageur's bank account. YOU make the monthly interest payments for 12 months, you ARE NOT reimbursed for those interest payments, EVER - even if you stay for the full term of the agreement. If you get the loan, they will 'park' $15000 in a GIC and pay you the interest it accrues after 12 months, IF you still work there. There is NO guarantee that the interest accrued in a GIC will equal the interest that you paid over the course of the agreement.
If you cease to work there for ANY reason (other than layoff due to shortage of work), you're FUCKED. If they decide to fire your sorry ass before the 12 months is up, you're FUCKED. They OWN you, there is no recourse for a screwed over employee - it's completely one sided. You WILL NOT have an effective voice as an employee. If you see things that you don't like, will you push for change knowing that pissing off the boss might cost you $15000?? I can't believe there are pilots out there stupid enough to agree to this.
I have no issue with companies that utilize training bonds. I wish they didn't exist, but we have to live with them now thanks to scum sucking pilots who do not honour their word. A bond should only commence after the training is successfully completed, should last for a reasonable amount of time for a sum equal to the actual amount the company has invested in the employee - not a penny more. NO CASH/LOAN SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO BE PUT UP BY THE EMPLOYEE AS A CONDITION OF EMPLOYEMENT. The amount the company can bill you for (if you quit) should be pro-rated and should decrease with each month of employment. The document should protect the employer, but also the employee. It should read 'if your employment ceases as a result of your own resignation', or something along those lines. If they decide to terminate your employment they should not be able to chase you for the balance of the agreement.
I knew it was a shitty deal at Voyageur, but I had no idea it was this bad. I am astounded that they have anyone willing to agree to such nonsense. There’s a sucker born everyday I suppose.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:39 am
by Just another canuck
I was told very recently by management and HR that there is no exchange of money. If you have the money, you put it in a GIC... it's in your name. I don't see how VAL could get there hands on it.... as long as you don't quit or get fired of course. Lay off or company goes bust, it's yours.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:42 am
by TopperHarley
Cat Driver wrote:Every 6 months, for 10 years, changing companies to fly the same plane...
You couldn't come up with anything better?
Is there a limit to how many SOP's there can be for one type of airplane?
How many times do you think a pilot would need to be trained on the same type.
So I'll try again.
If you fly a Navajo for company A. and a month later go to company B. and a month later go to company C. and have to be retrained each time could this go on forever?
Honestly, for something as simple as a navajo, I highly doubt it. I think it will depend on the company. They'll probably do a checkout on you. Or, they'll just give you all the manuals and go straight into your line indoc.
I know at Jazz we hired pilots with previous and current PPCs on the dash 8 or RJ. They still had to go through the entire initial course. I think with the smaller 730/704 companies, if you have a current PPC, you'll go straight to the line indoc part of your training.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:58 pm
by bob sacamano
Cat Driver wrote:Every 6 months, for 10 years, changing companies to fly the same plane...
You couldn't come up with anything better?
Is there a limit to how many SOP's there can be for one type of airplane?
How many times do you think a pilot would need to be trained on the same type.
So I'll try again.
If you fly a Navajo for company A. and a month later go to company B. and a month later go to company C. and have to be retrained each time could this go on forever?
I say again.
If you're changing jobs every month, and staying on the same plane, forget PPC's, you need to get a non flying job.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:36 pm
by Cat Driver
How many different airplanes can the average pilot safely fly randomly, as in from one to another?
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:50 am
by bob sacamano
Cat Driver wrote:How many different airplanes can the average pilot safely fly randomly, as in from one to another?
Bearskin has 1 type, and at VAL, I believe you only fly one type. So this has absolutely no relevance to the topic.
However, I'm gonna guess that in 1 day, you'd fly 5 different single pistons, then 3 different twin pistons, then 4 different turbine twins, a couple jets, a twin turbine helicopter, you'd fix them all, while hand flying them, while shooting an approach down to minimums, then a soviet made tank, a space shuttle (single pilot), a camaro, and a ski doo. Then you'd go home and take your sailboat for a spin.
It's tired man, real tired.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:32 am
by Doc
On the subject of bringing money to an interview:
We PAY our guys when they are being trained. Not just the old farts either. The new, initial guys get paid to train. That's right. We pay THEM. And you know what? They stick around. They come through the door with a skill. A licence. They should not be "out of pocket" for training. It's the cost of doing business. And believe me, they have a way better attitude because of it. And we end up with a better, easier to get along with, pilot.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:46 am
by Just another canuck
bob sacamano wrote:However, I'm gonna guess that in 1 day, you'd fly 5 different single pistons, then 3 different twin pistons, then 4 different turbine twins, a couple jets, a twin turbine helicopter, you'd fix them all, while hand flying them, while shooting an approach down to minimums, then a soviet made tank, a space shuttle (single pilot), a camaro, and a ski doo. Then you'd go home and take your sailboat for a spin.
You gotta admit Cat, that's pretty funny!! But aside from tank and space shuttle, you got 'em covered.
Hey Doc, sounds like you got a real good company there. Can I have a job?
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:56 am
by Doc
bob sacamano wrote:Cat Driver wrote:How many different airplanes can the average pilot safely fly randomly, as in from one to another?
Bearskin has 1 type, and at VAL, I believe you only fly one type. So this has absolutely no relevance to the topic.
However, I'm gonna guess that in 1 day, you'd fly 5 different single pistons, then 3 different twin pistons, then 4 different turbine twins, a couple jets, a twin turbine helicopter, you'd fix them all, while hand flying them, while shooting an approach down to minimums, then a soviet made tank, a space shuttle (single pilot), a camaro, and a ski doo. Then you'd go home and take your sailboat for a spin.
It's tired man, real tired.
Methinks Bob grows weary. It's Okay, Bob's one of the good guys...
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:43 am
by Doc
Just another canuck wrote:
Hey Doc, sounds like you got a real good company there. Can I have a job?
You never know. I found our last guy right here on avcanada! Now he'll PM me about what I Dink I am for dragging him away from his woman.......it's Okay though, she still visits......no accounting for taste?
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:54 am
by bob sacamano
Doc wrote:Methinks Bob grows weary. It's Okay, Bob's one of the good guys...
Only sometimes.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:36 pm
by Cat Driver
Methinks Bob grows weary. It's Okay, Bob's one of the good guys...
It's O.K. Doc I like pushing their buttons and know what really gets them to respond.
But I guess it does get boring when it is so easy to get them to jump at the bait.
Re: VAL vs. Bearskin
Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:11 am
by vmc_demo
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