The reality is that once you're flying with a large enough/safe enough company ALL your time is IFR and ALL your time is X-country (same sort of argument applies to that I think) anyway.
At the point when all your flights are IFR, there only seems much point in MAYBE estimating a 0.5 here or there for cloud time.
Logging Instrument Time
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
I know i'm probably just spitting out things that other people have said before me, but now it'll be in one short message.
Yes i've heard that 10% of your ifr time is counted towards "cloud time" when doing interviews and such...
But in the log books it states "Actual IFR" not "Actual IMC" so i would believe you take that time you've filed IFR and mark that down. If however you wish to get exact with your numbers... create a column "cloud time" so you can keep track of both. The new log books have a few extra spots at the end for that kind of thing.
What i don't however understand is why someone filing ifr but flying over clouds "vfr over the top" shouldn't count that as actual ifr as some people have said. What if that person doesn't have a vfr over the top rating? I know it's included in the commercial license, so bear with me.
Someone who doesn't have their vfr over-the-top rating or commercial license filing ifr which happens to be overtop of a cloud layer... how would they log that? 50% of you are saying it should just be counted as VFR since you are not in cloud... but it most certainly is not if there isn't ground visable, and that person doesn't have that rating. Therefor that person would have to count that as being actual ifr time. Why then would that person be able to record that as actual ifr time and not the rest of us?
okay... now my head hurts, see what you've all done!!!
Yes i've heard that 10% of your ifr time is counted towards "cloud time" when doing interviews and such...
But in the log books it states "Actual IFR" not "Actual IMC" so i would believe you take that time you've filed IFR and mark that down. If however you wish to get exact with your numbers... create a column "cloud time" so you can keep track of both. The new log books have a few extra spots at the end for that kind of thing.
What i don't however understand is why someone filing ifr but flying over clouds "vfr over the top" shouldn't count that as actual ifr as some people have said. What if that person doesn't have a vfr over the top rating? I know it's included in the commercial license, so bear with me.
Someone who doesn't have their vfr over-the-top rating or commercial license filing ifr which happens to be overtop of a cloud layer... how would they log that? 50% of you are saying it should just be counted as VFR since you are not in cloud... but it most certainly is not if there isn't ground visable, and that person doesn't have that rating. Therefor that person would have to count that as being actual ifr time. Why then would that person be able to record that as actual ifr time and not the rest of us?
okay... now my head hurts, see what you've all done!!!
Last edited by Wadd on Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Punch it Chewy!
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Right Seat Captain
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I think people are taking what it says on the top of the columns in their log book as gospel. There are a billion different logbooks available for pilots to buy out there, and they all are different. Some have less columns, some have more. Some DON'T have an 'actual' column, just IFR. Does it really matter how much 'actual' one has? If you're on the instruments, you're on the instruments. If you're not, you're not.
This is what I propose, pretty much what Cat's been saying. If you're using instruments to fly, log IFR. If you're using outside visual reference to fly, do not log IFR. It's simple, it's legal, it's accurate, and representative of what one flew. Does this not make sense?
WHAT IS THE POINT OF LOGGING ACTUAL?
This is what I propose, pretty much what Cat's been saying. If you're using instruments to fly, log IFR. If you're using outside visual reference to fly, do not log IFR. It's simple, it's legal, it's accurate, and representative of what one flew. Does this not make sense?
WHAT IS THE POINT OF LOGGING ACTUAL?
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Cat Driver
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Right seat Captain :
The problem we have here is the misconseption that a pilot with an instrument rating flying in cloud is somehow performing an accomshliment that needs to be logged....
...maybe the fault for this situation that we see here lies in the issuance of the instrument rating...
One would think that the holder of an instrument rating would be qualified to fly in cloud without having to log time in cloud....
So what I would suggest is issuing two levels of instrument ratings.
One would be issued for filing an IFR instrument flight plan valid only when clear of cloud.
For those pilots who have grasped the true reason for flying IFR which is to allow you to fly in cloud and have shown they are competant to actually fly in cloud we could have the IFR rating valid for flight in cloud.
Then there would be only the down wind turn problem to worry about..
Jeeses I can't believe aviation has been dummed down to this level where pilots are worried about how many minutes they are in cloud....
Even more incredible is the fact I am even involved is such an idiotic discussion.
Cat
The problem we have here is the misconseption that a pilot with an instrument rating flying in cloud is somehow performing an accomshliment that needs to be logged....
...maybe the fault for this situation that we see here lies in the issuance of the instrument rating...
One would think that the holder of an instrument rating would be qualified to fly in cloud without having to log time in cloud....
So what I would suggest is issuing two levels of instrument ratings.
One would be issued for filing an IFR instrument flight plan valid only when clear of cloud.
For those pilots who have grasped the true reason for flying IFR which is to allow you to fly in cloud and have shown they are competant to actually fly in cloud we could have the IFR rating valid for flight in cloud.
Then there would be only the down wind turn problem to worry about..
Jeeses I can't believe aviation has been dummed down to this level where pilots are worried about how many minutes they are in cloud....
Even more incredible is the fact I am even involved is such an idiotic discussion.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Right Seat Captain
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Too funny Cat-
Cat Driver
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The Black Hole
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Check Pilot
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Darkhorse,
I haven’t had a chance to reply to your kind words referring me to the first three letters of the word assumption since last weekend. Kinda like spelling your handle as Dorkhorse I guess. Is that a typo?
There, - - now that we have the personal insults out of the way….
A couple of things come to my mind however:
I know you might be bored with people like Cat Driver, and me, for example, but like you so eloquently state:
“guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
You claim that you are not a 250-hour wonder. You claim you are not new to the industry and you claim you are not young either.
You said you hit my nerve (not so - actually only idiots do that) so here you go – BUNKY:
And I say again BUNKY,
You are a Stage 2 pilot.
How come, if you’re not Stage 2, you are so concerned about logging any kind of time, whether its actual IFR, simulated IFR, IMC, cross country, night VFR, float, ski, uncontrolled, VFR-on-Top, commercial, private, ultra light, powered parachute, balloon, helicopter, airship or whatever CAR 400 series can think up, if you are in the system then and need to put it in the right column?
I’ll just (ass)ume that YOU must need to log any kind of flying time about four different ways so you can submit a resume to get some kind of “better” job. What’s wrong with your present job? Don’t you have one? How come you don’t have it already?
The reason you haven’t is because you are still Stage 2. It’s obvious to me that you are a low time, fuselage-hugging wannabe that knows it all.
What do you, unlike most of us “pre-flood” dinosaurs do differently about logging stuff, when most of us “pre-flood” types could care less about how much time us dinosaurs have in or out of cloud?
If it’s in cloud it’s IFR time, if it’s not it’s VFR as far as I’m concerned.
Oddly enough, in your mind, the “old” days are gone. Again, you just don’t get it. You just can’t accept that old guys know more than you do.
When it comes to aviation, those old days, and old dinosaurs, as much as you disagree, are not gone. You can hate that as much as you want but there are still a whole bunch of us baby boomers controlling things and plugging up the system for folks like you and it will take a long time before the system plods along and gets to learn all the old, same mistakes again when all the “old” experienced and pre- dinosaur types let guys like you take control of anything.
You fall into the classic “Stage 2” category. I hope you get some more years – note I said years, not hours – before you get out of under the thumb of some old dinosaur type like Cat Driver or me maybe. You still need that guidance.
Sometime when (If?) you get past it you will stop the fake yawning and pay a little attention to what aviation is all about - like Cat Driver and a few others on this forum have to bother with taking the time to pass on. Listen to experience. Ignore it at your own peril.
There you go BUNKY.
I haven’t had a chance to reply to your kind words referring me to the first three letters of the word assumption since last weekend. Kinda like spelling your handle as Dorkhorse I guess. Is that a typo?
There, - - now that we have the personal insults out of the way….
A couple of things come to my mind however:
I know you might be bored with people like Cat Driver, and me, for example, but like you so eloquently state:
“guys like you who have some good points but also start off their point with a "well back in my day we did it this way"
You claim that you are not a 250-hour wonder. You claim you are not new to the industry and you claim you are not young either.
You said you hit my nerve (not so - actually only idiots do that) so here you go – BUNKY:
And I say again BUNKY,
You are a Stage 2 pilot.
How come, if you’re not Stage 2, you are so concerned about logging any kind of time, whether its actual IFR, simulated IFR, IMC, cross country, night VFR, float, ski, uncontrolled, VFR-on-Top, commercial, private, ultra light, powered parachute, balloon, helicopter, airship or whatever CAR 400 series can think up, if you are in the system then and need to put it in the right column?
I’ll just (ass)ume that YOU must need to log any kind of flying time about four different ways so you can submit a resume to get some kind of “better” job. What’s wrong with your present job? Don’t you have one? How come you don’t have it already?
The reason you haven’t is because you are still Stage 2. It’s obvious to me that you are a low time, fuselage-hugging wannabe that knows it all.
What do you, unlike most of us “pre-flood” dinosaurs do differently about logging stuff, when most of us “pre-flood” types could care less about how much time us dinosaurs have in or out of cloud?
If it’s in cloud it’s IFR time, if it’s not it’s VFR as far as I’m concerned.
Oddly enough, in your mind, the “old” days are gone. Again, you just don’t get it. You just can’t accept that old guys know more than you do.
When it comes to aviation, those old days, and old dinosaurs, as much as you disagree, are not gone. You can hate that as much as you want but there are still a whole bunch of us baby boomers controlling things and plugging up the system for folks like you and it will take a long time before the system plods along and gets to learn all the old, same mistakes again when all the “old” experienced and pre- dinosaur types let guys like you take control of anything.
You fall into the classic “Stage 2” category. I hope you get some more years – note I said years, not hours – before you get out of under the thumb of some old dinosaur type like Cat Driver or me maybe. You still need that guidance.
Sometime when (If?) you get past it you will stop the fake yawning and pay a little attention to what aviation is all about - like Cat Driver and a few others on this forum have to bother with taking the time to pass on. Listen to experience. Ignore it at your own peril.
There you go BUNKY.
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Cat Driver
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Check pilot, ignorance is forgivable with some of these posters.
What I find annoying is some of the newer pilots who read these discussions may accidently take these wannabes as experts, then we have a serious problem sharing our airspace.
May I make a comment about dinosaurs?
We not only can type in a FMS and reach out and turn heading bugs as the computer flys the airplane, but we are the guys you talk to way, way down below half way across the ocean who are still smart enough to fly old technology airplanes across oceans and deserts and mountains while ferrying them from one part of the world to another.....and it never occurs to us to log the time. ( in or out of cloud. )
Cat
What I find annoying is some of the newer pilots who read these discussions may accidently take these wannabes as experts, then we have a serious problem sharing our airspace.
May I make a comment about dinosaurs?
We not only can type in a FMS and reach out and turn heading bugs as the computer flys the airplane, but we are the guys you talk to way, way down below half way across the ocean who are still smart enough to fly old technology airplanes across oceans and deserts and mountains while ferrying them from one part of the world to another.....and it never occurs to us to log the time. ( in or out of cloud. )
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Check Pilot and Cat Driver,
I couldn't care less whether you log your flight time any more or not. Fact of the matter is, you both probably have enough experience and contacts in the industry to get whatever job you want. Good for you. For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience.
Cat, it is not unreasonable to expect that a current instrument rated pilot be able to fly in clouds. However, the fact is, you can be "current" and not have flown in IMC (or in the system) for up to a year. It is a personal pet peeve when I hear about people getting an IFR ticket and never having poked the pointy end into the thick of it. The actual column has to be one of the most important in the book! Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds?
I just don't see the point of insulting us here...equating a question about how to log time as some sort of indicator of one's inability to aviate safely.
Andrew
PS Check pilot, in your last post you actually counter Cat's original post (before all the mudslinging) about how to log instrument time. So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel?
I couldn't care less whether you log your flight time any more or not. Fact of the matter is, you both probably have enough experience and contacts in the industry to get whatever job you want. Good for you. For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience.
Cat, it is not unreasonable to expect that a current instrument rated pilot be able to fly in clouds. However, the fact is, you can be "current" and not have flown in IMC (or in the system) for up to a year. It is a personal pet peeve when I hear about people getting an IFR ticket and never having poked the pointy end into the thick of it. The actual column has to be one of the most important in the book! Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds?
I just don't see the point of insulting us here...equating a question about how to log time as some sort of indicator of one's inability to aviate safely.
Andrew
PS Check pilot, in your last post you actually counter Cat's original post (before all the mudslinging) about how to log instrument time. So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel?
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
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Cat Driver
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325 :
I don't think you understand what I am trying to tell you, so here is a very simple explination.
" For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience. "
Yes, I understand, however I never....do you get that "NEVER " pay any attention to a pilots personal log book. I am only interested in finding out if the person can fly safely and make safe decisions when hiring them. A log book does not give me that information.
" Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds? "
Your question really does not deserve an answer because you obviously have tunnel vision and do not understand the subject.
However out of the kindness of my heart here is the reality.
If I were to hire someone with your experience level to fly " any " airplane IFR it would be as a first officer until you reached the stage that questions such as you are struggling with would be redundant.
"So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel? "
I am going to give you the benefit of pretending that you are trying to be funny.
Because I can assure you that I would never hire any pilot that does not have respect for their elders.
My best advice is to quit worrying about splitting hairs about how many seconds you have in cloud...only some of the flying schools and TC are interested in giving you a complex about that subject.
Cat
I don't think you understand what I am trying to tell you, so here is a very simple explination.
" For the rest of of us however, our log books are an important "accurate" record of our experience. "
Yes, I understand, however I never....do you get that "NEVER " pay any attention to a pilots personal log book. I am only interested in finding out if the person can fly safely and make safe decisions when hiring them. A log book does not give me that information.
" Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds? "
Your question really does not deserve an answer because you obviously have tunnel vision and do not understand the subject.
However out of the kindness of my heart here is the reality.
If I were to hire someone with your experience level to fly " any " airplane IFR it would be as a first officer until you reached the stage that questions such as you are struggling with would be redundant.
"So which dinosaur's word do I take as gospel? "
I am going to give you the benefit of pretending that you are trying to be funny.
Because I can assure you that I would never hire any pilot that does not have respect for their elders.
My best advice is to quit worrying about splitting hairs about how many seconds you have in cloud...only some of the flying schools and TC are interested in giving you a complex about that subject.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I am only talking to you Check Pilot...Dont draw Cat into this.
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
I am only talking to you Check Pilot...Dont draw Cat into this.
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
The problem with you is exactly what I stated earlier. All you have is your opinion and all that counts is your opinion..In other words you think you are allways right. Since you have done it all then it is gospel. There is no room in your pre flood mind to listen or accept other views.
I could care less about this logging time crap. You guys are going back and forth splitting hairs because you have nothing better to do.
Lets get something correct here. The reason I called you an a** is because you went off on a tangent about who I am what I do and what my position in life is.. You dont even know me...... I hope you can figure that one out.. Hence the word (ass)umption.. I think you need to take a break and catch up here. I wouldnt want to tire an old guy out.
Also, I dont hate the guys that have been around... another ass-umption you made.
You are just so hi and mighty on yourself it unbelievable.... So what if you can turn knobs and program an FMS......WOW... Im in awww....guess what I can do it to.....
Obviously I hit a nerve or else you wouldnt use up the whole avcanada website to respond to me. I mean what a load of absolute drivle.... First you start off with dont insult me...because it hurt..and then you start calling me a Stage 2 pilot...what the hell is that?? Where did you come up with that one...cracker Jack box...How lame.. Maybe you should take up another hobby, you know something a little less testing on the "old" grey matter
Yawn
your friend
Bunky
Problem is, how does one know that the time logged in the 'actual column' has any basis in reality. This would have to be the easiest column to, putting it kindly, exaggerate.upontop325 wrote:...Cat, it is not unreasonable to expect that a current instrument rated pilot be able to fly in clouds. However, the fact is, you can be "current" and not have flown in IMC (or in the system) for up to a year. It is a personal pet peeve when I hear about people getting an IFR ticket and never having poked the pointy end into the thick of it. The actual column has to be one of the most important in the book! Would you want to hire a guy to do lots of flying in the soup in your airplane (with the multi-million dollar price tag,) who had hardly ever flown in clouds?
...
The skills the individual demonstrates are far more telling than some unsubstantiated number in a logbook. That is why companies do sim checks and why one has to work through a probation period.
Interviews are where a company can question one's logbook and how the time is logged. However one logs it will almost certainly be fine, as long as one is forthright with the explanation.
First off, the term dinosaur came from checkpilot...no disrespect intended, thanks for the benefit of the doubt.
Second, I understand the subject just fine. Great if you never look at a log book, but insurance companies do, and so do some companies when you submit your resume initially. A lot ask for photocopies of your log...at least until they decide to bring you in for an interview and/or sim-ride. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be offered a chance to prove myself. Any time anybody wants to test me I'll put my money where my mouth is.
So once again, forgive my ignorance. I simply wanted to know the correct way to stick a particular entry in a logbook. Period! Had I the luxury of this forum several years ago I would have asked the question then. As it is, the fact that I haven't found a definite answer to this question, hasn't stopped me from flying safely in IFR/IMC in both single and multi-crew aircraft.
Cheers
Andrew
Second, I understand the subject just fine. Great if you never look at a log book, but insurance companies do, and so do some companies when you submit your resume initially. A lot ask for photocopies of your log...at least until they decide to bring you in for an interview and/or sim-ride. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be offered a chance to prove myself. Any time anybody wants to test me I'll put my money where my mouth is.
So once again, forgive my ignorance. I simply wanted to know the correct way to stick a particular entry in a logbook. Period! Had I the luxury of this forum several years ago I would have asked the question then. As it is, the fact that I haven't found a definite answer to this question, hasn't stopped me from flying safely in IFR/IMC in both single and multi-crew aircraft.
Cheers
Andrew
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
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Cat Driver
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Andrew :
Hey guy, no problem.
I am only trying to give you some advice from what I have seen of aviation.
As to the insurance thing , where did you get the information that they look at a pilots log book to determine IFR / IMC time?
Maybe I am out of touch but I don't remember ever being asked....then again things change and I could be way out to lunch on this.
Remember I probably am not asked such questions because I've been in their data base for so long there is no need to ask me.
But even if I'm wrong about the insurance thing I really can't see that making any real difference anyhow because it is unlikely that anyone would be offering a newly minted IFR pilot a left seat position in a commercial IFR operation... ( assuming you are newly minted )
Then again maybe I am wrong there also...
Cat
Hey guy, no problem.
I am only trying to give you some advice from what I have seen of aviation.
As to the insurance thing , where did you get the information that they look at a pilots log book to determine IFR / IMC time?
Maybe I am out of touch but I don't remember ever being asked....then again things change and I could be way out to lunch on this.
Remember I probably am not asked such questions because I've been in their data base for so long there is no need to ask me.
But even if I'm wrong about the insurance thing I really can't see that making any real difference anyhow because it is unlikely that anyone would be offering a newly minted IFR pilot a left seat position in a commercial IFR operation... ( assuming you are newly minted
)Then again maybe I am wrong there also...
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
And no, I am not newly minted. I've held an instrument rating for 6 or 7 years now. Although to be honest, it has only been the last half of that time that I've really used it in commercial aviation.
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
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Cat Driver
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O.K. I guess I was wrong about that , but it probably does make sense now that I think about it.
If they asked me for my my log book or a copy of same I might have a problem, because I can't remember the last time I even had one.
Fortunately for me they don't ask.
Anyhow Andrew you hang in there and keep grinding away then some day you will look back and give a big sigh and wonder why you worried about it.
Just remember any idiot can say yes, but it takes guts to say no.
Better to be a live chicken than a dead duck.
Your friend...
Cat
If they asked me for my my log book or a copy of same I might have a problem, because I can't remember the last time I even had one.
Fortunately for me they don't ask.
Anyhow Andrew you hang in there and keep grinding away then some day you will look back and give a big sigh and wonder why you worried about it.
Just remember any idiot can say yes, but it takes guts to say no.
Better to be a live chicken than a dead duck.
Your friend...
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
-
Check Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:26 am
Cat and 325 -
Thanks for getting this thing back on the rails. -I appreciate it.
Bunky (aka Darkhorse) asked about Stage 2 pilots. I know that most of us here on this forum know this stuff intuitively know but here is something I know that happens to all of us as aviators.
So here you go "Bunky" - I hope it helps -
The 4 Stages of Pilots
There are 4 possible stages in a professional pilot’s career.
Luckily, very few of us advance to stage 4.
Stage 1
Brand new pilots get there right away. This can begin on the very first flying lesson, or for that matter, the first time being aloft in an aircraft. There are all kinds of wonder and awe at the experience and the view. It drives them on to want to know more about this wondrous method of being away from the supporting surface of mother earth. Gravity, despite all logical laws of physics, has magically disappeared. It seems the machine moves through an invisible medium held up by no more than Gods will. It drives newbies on to want to know more about it and the mystical person who apparently manipulates the controls with such seemingly relaxed ease.
Sometime later the dream starts to become reality.
The flying instructor tells this fresh young face that learning to fly can be done by almost anyone. So away they go on the path to the exalted Pilot Licence. After a little while this new person experiences a once-in-a-lifetime event. FIRST SOLO! For every pilot, it truly is the only time in their life that they get to do this. It never happens again.
99% of pilots never forget it.
As time goes on the new pilot starts to find out that sometimes things don’t always go exactly as planned. Every once in a while, maybe not too often, a wee bit of apprehension strikes because the machine did not go the way it was intended and a new lesson is learned in the school of life. Respect for the machine, the weather, flight planning, fuel and a host of others become number one priorities and lead to a lot of discussion, reading and observing. The basics are still within grasp, but doubts about ability go on. Skills seem to take forever to develop and smoothness is miles away.
Practice, practice, practice.
Eventually that old fear of the ten-knot crosswind becomes an ancient memory.
As the answers and skill become clearer and more defined it eventually leads, at maybe 150 hours or so, to Stage 2.
Stage 2
The new Commercial Pilot Licence is truly a marvel to look at before it gets put away again in the holder. Now that there is a legal method of actually getting paid for something to do with an aircraft, that Licence is worth its weight in gold. The disappointing part is that, unlike the first thoughts of a new lifestyle, it turns out that a bare Commercial Licence seems to mean nothing to those aviation Gods that own airplanes or run airlines. Letters, phone calls, faxes and visits don’t work at all. Nobody seems interested in this magical piece of paper in its nice shiny holder. This piece of gold in its nice holder now truly is worth some weight by pulling down the pants of the bearer.
Disappointment abounds but the truly intrepid king of aviation decides to take a job at a local operator fuelling aeroplanes and cleaning bellies of stains and oil. Optimism exudes from this fresh youth and eventually the boss notices that perseverance and hard work. A few beers one night at the Hangar party leads to the dream job. That old Navajo’s right hand seat is like a breath of fresh air. The Captains are a bit cranky but at least the radio work is getting really good and every once in a while the Captain, in a rare moment of seeming enthusiasm, says “Gear Up” and the new guy actually gets to touch the exalted gear handle. As time goes by, the new co-pilot gets the long sought after Captains position in the mighty left hand seat. Soon after, wife A and his daughter leave for the south and the big city. Something about getting a degree in accounting or something that has no relationship with aviation. It turns out kind of crappy though because of the stupid support payments the judge makes him pay. It cuts into the beer drinking.
On the positive side is the freedom to relish in the glow of being worshipped by a couple of the young airport groupie girls that have been eyeing him up the last few months. There is not much sleep going on for a while. Mornings come kind of early and the Chief Pilot hints that one of the passengers on the last trip thought he might have been sleeping.
He is getting annoyed with the Chief Pilot and the bossy Operations Manger too. The CP didn’t back him up with his “alleged” violation with TC even after the Tribunal and their idiot appeal guys didn’t understand the stupid reason for the charges in the first place. The weather was only reported bad on take-off and the rotten FSS guy just had to report the one-quarter mile to TC anyway when it was clear while sitting on the runway that at least half, and not one quarter, of the runway was in sight. After all there was 6 lights that were visible on each side. That’s 12 total and that makes half a mile doesn’t it? Stupid Feds. Stupid Tribunal. Stupid FSS. Stupid $500.00 fine. That $500.00 was going to be the down payment on a nice used car.
Stupid Chief Pilot. He says that its lucky TC didn’t come after the Company too. What do those low life TC guys know anyway? If they knew how to fly they would have had a real job in the first place. They are just a bunch of old burned out ex-military pilots or know-it-all former charter pilot or Instructors or something that couldn’t make in the real world. None of them know anything about “real” flying because it’s obvious they have never been there – none of them.
500 hours later, there is little to nothing left to learn about aviation. It’s taken two long years and a lot of really hard work to get to the position of Captain and the new co-pilots now come out of flying school knowing less and less. The Chief Pilot seems to be getting senile. He says things that make this Captain seethe with anger at the CP’s ignorance. He, and a few of the other older pilots just don’t seem to have it together any more. They turn down trips that are no problem just because the weather is a bit crappy in some BS forecast of freezing something-or-other. It’s only forecast and every time that’s happened it never shows up. It’s just another dumb case of arse covering by NAVCAN idiots that don’t know sh*t from shinola anyway. This Captain takes the trip anyway. He is now at the pinnacle of aviation knowledge. He has the answers for all things flying. He even knows that by the fact that nobody, even the know nothing co-pilots, even ask him about things anymore. He has taught them all well and they must now realize his education has given them enough to know some of his wisdom.
Nobody has as sharp a mind or understands flying, aviation and the weather like he does.
As the throttles advance for the take-off roll, its either luck and God is on his side, as he sets out knowing all about things aviation or, it’s some of his last moments of life on Earth. Only God will decide. There is now 1000 hours in the logbook.
When this Captain gets back home after the trip that the Virgin Mary has sprinkled him with holy water and kept him alive he vows to never ever do that again. Stage 2 is now over.
Suddenly all the old guys seem to make sense again. It’s a miracle. Flying is now something that actually needs to be respected. Fuselage hugging thoughts disappear in a flash. Its time to get down to business.
Stage 3
Work, work, work. Flying is now a way to make a decent living. Home and family become more and more important. 20 years down the road and only a few minor annoyances have cropped up. Wife B is complaining about the support payments and you have just found out your daughter and her 18-year-old boyfriend are going to make you a Grandfather. You go out and start sacrificing small animals to the sperm Gods in a futile attempt to stop the unpreventable. Why, oh why, didn’t you get wife A spayed before you got married? You wonder.
The flying is good and the schedules are great now. The aeroplanes are in good shape but the annual recurrent training is getting really boring. Electronic, computer driven cockpits were a little challenge but it turns out its just another TV set hooked to a computer in the aeroplane. A couple of blown fans in the last 10 years have been the only heart stopping moments but luckily the training kicked in and it just really turned out to be a routine emergency.
Life goes by and suddenly wife B and a whole bunch of friends put on your 60th birthday party.
5 years later you retire. You die at age 85 after putting in 10 years of flying jumpers from an old clapped out Cessna 206 and loving every minute of it.
Stage 4
Some pilots go through Stage 3 but remember that scare that chased them out of Stage 2. These guys are not common, but it immediately becomes obvious when having to deal with this unfortunate soul. The scare that sprinkled them with pixie dust on that Stage 2 horrifying trip has been unconsciously stuck in the back of their mind ever since and has finally overtaken logic.
The average Stage 3, Joe Lunch Bucket Pilot will recognize these tortured folks immediately. Luckily, the majority of normal Stage 3’s will never run into them. There aren’t very many of them around but they can make your life pure hell if they are in any kind of position of control in a Company.
Regardless of how much logic that appears around these folks, FEAR is abundant.
A proper word for this might be paranoia. They will suddenly shift to an irrational fear of flying, even for the most professional, accomplished aviators that have been apparently normal for years. They tend to try and stop anyone from flying by using “hidden” rules, unknown policies and twisted interpretations of regulations from having to go flying.
It’s really sad to see. The word pity might be wrong, but it does fit for those very few individuals that have had a productive career in aviation and then wind down into the mental ground forever.
These poor folks will never again to feel the magical joy of flight. For these folks an aeroplane has become the work of Satan trying to urge them on to hell and damnation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For rest of us Stage 3 grunts all I can say is carry on. Aviation is one of the only careers in life that makes us feel like the mystery of gravity and the grand unified theory of physics is now understood. Let’s enjoy the ride while we can.
I hope this helps all pilots through their life in this goofy business, with all its twists, turns and annoyances.
We are only here on the Planet for a short time, the span of which is known with certainty to God alone. So lets get on with the flying!!
Thanks for getting this thing back on the rails. -I appreciate it.
Bunky (aka Darkhorse) asked about Stage 2 pilots. I know that most of us here on this forum know this stuff intuitively know but here is something I know that happens to all of us as aviators.
So here you go "Bunky" - I hope it helps -
The 4 Stages of Pilots
There are 4 possible stages in a professional pilot’s career.
Luckily, very few of us advance to stage 4.
Stage 1
Brand new pilots get there right away. This can begin on the very first flying lesson, or for that matter, the first time being aloft in an aircraft. There are all kinds of wonder and awe at the experience and the view. It drives them on to want to know more about this wondrous method of being away from the supporting surface of mother earth. Gravity, despite all logical laws of physics, has magically disappeared. It seems the machine moves through an invisible medium held up by no more than Gods will. It drives newbies on to want to know more about it and the mystical person who apparently manipulates the controls with such seemingly relaxed ease.
Sometime later the dream starts to become reality.
The flying instructor tells this fresh young face that learning to fly can be done by almost anyone. So away they go on the path to the exalted Pilot Licence. After a little while this new person experiences a once-in-a-lifetime event. FIRST SOLO! For every pilot, it truly is the only time in their life that they get to do this. It never happens again.
99% of pilots never forget it.
As time goes on the new pilot starts to find out that sometimes things don’t always go exactly as planned. Every once in a while, maybe not too often, a wee bit of apprehension strikes because the machine did not go the way it was intended and a new lesson is learned in the school of life. Respect for the machine, the weather, flight planning, fuel and a host of others become number one priorities and lead to a lot of discussion, reading and observing. The basics are still within grasp, but doubts about ability go on. Skills seem to take forever to develop and smoothness is miles away.
Practice, practice, practice.
Eventually that old fear of the ten-knot crosswind becomes an ancient memory.
As the answers and skill become clearer and more defined it eventually leads, at maybe 150 hours or so, to Stage 2.
Stage 2
The new Commercial Pilot Licence is truly a marvel to look at before it gets put away again in the holder. Now that there is a legal method of actually getting paid for something to do with an aircraft, that Licence is worth its weight in gold. The disappointing part is that, unlike the first thoughts of a new lifestyle, it turns out that a bare Commercial Licence seems to mean nothing to those aviation Gods that own airplanes or run airlines. Letters, phone calls, faxes and visits don’t work at all. Nobody seems interested in this magical piece of paper in its nice shiny holder. This piece of gold in its nice holder now truly is worth some weight by pulling down the pants of the bearer.
Disappointment abounds but the truly intrepid king of aviation decides to take a job at a local operator fuelling aeroplanes and cleaning bellies of stains and oil. Optimism exudes from this fresh youth and eventually the boss notices that perseverance and hard work. A few beers one night at the Hangar party leads to the dream job. That old Navajo’s right hand seat is like a breath of fresh air. The Captains are a bit cranky but at least the radio work is getting really good and every once in a while the Captain, in a rare moment of seeming enthusiasm, says “Gear Up” and the new guy actually gets to touch the exalted gear handle. As time goes by, the new co-pilot gets the long sought after Captains position in the mighty left hand seat. Soon after, wife A and his daughter leave for the south and the big city. Something about getting a degree in accounting or something that has no relationship with aviation. It turns out kind of crappy though because of the stupid support payments the judge makes him pay. It cuts into the beer drinking.
On the positive side is the freedom to relish in the glow of being worshipped by a couple of the young airport groupie girls that have been eyeing him up the last few months. There is not much sleep going on for a while. Mornings come kind of early and the Chief Pilot hints that one of the passengers on the last trip thought he might have been sleeping.
He is getting annoyed with the Chief Pilot and the bossy Operations Manger too. The CP didn’t back him up with his “alleged” violation with TC even after the Tribunal and their idiot appeal guys didn’t understand the stupid reason for the charges in the first place. The weather was only reported bad on take-off and the rotten FSS guy just had to report the one-quarter mile to TC anyway when it was clear while sitting on the runway that at least half, and not one quarter, of the runway was in sight. After all there was 6 lights that were visible on each side. That’s 12 total and that makes half a mile doesn’t it? Stupid Feds. Stupid Tribunal. Stupid FSS. Stupid $500.00 fine. That $500.00 was going to be the down payment on a nice used car.
Stupid Chief Pilot. He says that its lucky TC didn’t come after the Company too. What do those low life TC guys know anyway? If they knew how to fly they would have had a real job in the first place. They are just a bunch of old burned out ex-military pilots or know-it-all former charter pilot or Instructors or something that couldn’t make in the real world. None of them know anything about “real” flying because it’s obvious they have never been there – none of them.
500 hours later, there is little to nothing left to learn about aviation. It’s taken two long years and a lot of really hard work to get to the position of Captain and the new co-pilots now come out of flying school knowing less and less. The Chief Pilot seems to be getting senile. He says things that make this Captain seethe with anger at the CP’s ignorance. He, and a few of the other older pilots just don’t seem to have it together any more. They turn down trips that are no problem just because the weather is a bit crappy in some BS forecast of freezing something-or-other. It’s only forecast and every time that’s happened it never shows up. It’s just another dumb case of arse covering by NAVCAN idiots that don’t know sh*t from shinola anyway. This Captain takes the trip anyway. He is now at the pinnacle of aviation knowledge. He has the answers for all things flying. He even knows that by the fact that nobody, even the know nothing co-pilots, even ask him about things anymore. He has taught them all well and they must now realize his education has given them enough to know some of his wisdom.
Nobody has as sharp a mind or understands flying, aviation and the weather like he does.
As the throttles advance for the take-off roll, its either luck and God is on his side, as he sets out knowing all about things aviation or, it’s some of his last moments of life on Earth. Only God will decide. There is now 1000 hours in the logbook.
When this Captain gets back home after the trip that the Virgin Mary has sprinkled him with holy water and kept him alive he vows to never ever do that again. Stage 2 is now over.
Suddenly all the old guys seem to make sense again. It’s a miracle. Flying is now something that actually needs to be respected. Fuselage hugging thoughts disappear in a flash. Its time to get down to business.
Stage 3
Work, work, work. Flying is now a way to make a decent living. Home and family become more and more important. 20 years down the road and only a few minor annoyances have cropped up. Wife B is complaining about the support payments and you have just found out your daughter and her 18-year-old boyfriend are going to make you a Grandfather. You go out and start sacrificing small animals to the sperm Gods in a futile attempt to stop the unpreventable. Why, oh why, didn’t you get wife A spayed before you got married? You wonder.
The flying is good and the schedules are great now. The aeroplanes are in good shape but the annual recurrent training is getting really boring. Electronic, computer driven cockpits were a little challenge but it turns out its just another TV set hooked to a computer in the aeroplane. A couple of blown fans in the last 10 years have been the only heart stopping moments but luckily the training kicked in and it just really turned out to be a routine emergency.
Life goes by and suddenly wife B and a whole bunch of friends put on your 60th birthday party.
5 years later you retire. You die at age 85 after putting in 10 years of flying jumpers from an old clapped out Cessna 206 and loving every minute of it.
Stage 4
Some pilots go through Stage 3 but remember that scare that chased them out of Stage 2. These guys are not common, but it immediately becomes obvious when having to deal with this unfortunate soul. The scare that sprinkled them with pixie dust on that Stage 2 horrifying trip has been unconsciously stuck in the back of their mind ever since and has finally overtaken logic.
The average Stage 3, Joe Lunch Bucket Pilot will recognize these tortured folks immediately. Luckily, the majority of normal Stage 3’s will never run into them. There aren’t very many of them around but they can make your life pure hell if they are in any kind of position of control in a Company.
Regardless of how much logic that appears around these folks, FEAR is abundant.
A proper word for this might be paranoia. They will suddenly shift to an irrational fear of flying, even for the most professional, accomplished aviators that have been apparently normal for years. They tend to try and stop anyone from flying by using “hidden” rules, unknown policies and twisted interpretations of regulations from having to go flying.
It’s really sad to see. The word pity might be wrong, but it does fit for those very few individuals that have had a productive career in aviation and then wind down into the mental ground forever.
These poor folks will never again to feel the magical joy of flight. For these folks an aeroplane has become the work of Satan trying to urge them on to hell and damnation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For rest of us Stage 3 grunts all I can say is carry on. Aviation is one of the only careers in life that makes us feel like the mystery of gravity and the grand unified theory of physics is now understood. Let’s enjoy the ride while we can.
I hope this helps all pilots through their life in this goofy business, with all its twists, turns and annoyances.
We are only here on the Planet for a short time, the span of which is known with certainty to God alone. So lets get on with the flying!!
-
Crazed Windscreen
- Rank 2
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:02 am
Show me one pilot who can fly an airway only by looking outside...anyone...anyone? That would be instrument flying
if your IFR your on the dials. And if your not supposed to be why are all the IFR charts limited in there representation of terrain?
If you can't do IFR time out of cloud how did you ever get your rating in VFR conditions?
KFC flies about a 7 minute leg fromYYJ to YVR everyday IFR. I bet there not looking at a VTA
Later
if your IFR your on the dials. And if your not supposed to be why are all the IFR charts limited in there representation of terrain?
If you can't do IFR time out of cloud how did you ever get your rating in VFR conditions?
KFC flies about a 7 minute leg fromYYJ to YVR everyday IFR. I bet there not looking at a VTA
Later
-
Crazed Windscreen
- Rank 2
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:02 am
Oh and just one other thing ...
A "Visual" or "Contact" approach, even though you have reference to the ground is still an IFR approach.
I log that IFR. WHY?
Because you are still under the jurisdiction of a sector controller not an ATC unit. And that goes for uncontrolled IFR as well.
Later again
A "Visual" or "Contact" approach, even though you have reference to the ground is still an IFR approach.
I log that IFR. WHY?
Because you are still under the jurisdiction of a sector controller not an ATC unit. And that goes for uncontrolled IFR as well.
Later again
