UWO's BMOS - Commercial Aviation Management

[AuxBatOn]

go complain to CF about that....not me

I could not care less. If you are into the ROTP program, I strongly suggest you change you attitude or Moose Jaw could be hard for you...

[4Stroke]

As an alumnus of the UWO-CAM program, I think it's great to see the enthusiasm of a current student.

However, Mr. or Ms. Devine, I think you need to check your attitude at the door (or login page). You're in danger of alienating a lot of people - prospective students, alumni, and more importantly, your peers.

Yes, UWO-CAM is an excellent program. But you are doing a disservice to it by advertising this program as
an elite, above-the-rest program that entitles you to talk down to those not interested in it.

Having a university degree in aviation will NOT get you a job. It will NOT bring your resume to the top of the pile.
It will NOT fast-track you ahead of those who get the CPL-MIFR at Joe's bait-and-tackle-and-flying-school.

If those implications were not intended by you, then let me apologize. But some folks here have obviously taken offense with the "we're better than you" that appears on page 1 of this thread.

C-HRIS said quite rightly that a unversity education is never a waste. It is something that helps you learn some important life lessons, excercise your 'noodle', and broadens career potential outside of flying.

Your work ethic, perserverance and by far most importantly your attitude will get you a job. You do not need a university
education for those things.

Yes there are UWO grads in the field at the airlines, charter companies, air force, management and sales. But so are grads from Seneca, Sault, Confed, CQFI, MFC, BFC....and even Joe's bait-and-tackle-and-flying-school. I have worked with and currently work with grads of those programs and they are some damn fine people and pilots!

So, that being said, ToFlyIsDevine, please continue to show your enthusiasm for the UWO program, and by all means promote it as a great path for an aviation career.

But remember, a university education is just a starting point. As cliched as it may be, it is what you make of it.
Use it to diversify your education, gain a solid business background and learn those crucial people skills that are needed to succeed in this industry.

The flight training at UWO is top-notch, with professional instructors and a solid curriculum. The courses
at UWO are taught by some really good people, and with a growing alumni in the field, networking for job
opportunities gets better every year.

As for the cost? Yup. expensive. Very. But these days what isn't? Any university program, and flight training almost everywhere will run very close in costs. Yes, there are a handful of institutions with subsidized tuitions, and they are definately worth taking a look at. There are many scolarship opportunities with the UWO program - I was able to grab a couple of them, and that helped ease the pain (so did beer for that matter...).

So, as my rant nears an end, lets keep this discussion focused on helping those young'ns in school looking for honest, no-BS answers about the many excellent schools in this country and the unique opportunities that EACH one has to offer.

Save the pissing matches for the pub.

Cheers y'all.

4Stroke.

[just curious]

When some loud braggart tries to put me down
And says his school is great
I tell him right away
Now whats the matter buddy
Aint you heard of my school
Its number one in the state

So be true to your school now
Just like you would to your girl or guy
Be true to your school now
And let your colors fly
Be true to your school

I got a lettermans sweater
With a letter in front
I got for footbal and track
Im proud to where it now
When I cruise around
The other parts of the town
I got a decal in back

So be true to your school now
Just like you would to your girl or guy
Be true to your school now
And let your colors fly
Be true to your school

On friday well be jacked up on the football game
And Ill be ready to fight
Were gonna smash em now
My girl will be working on her pom-poms now
And shell be yelling tonight

So be true to your school now
Just like you would to your girl or guy
Be true to your school now
And let your colors fly
Be true to your school

Rah rah rah be true to your school
Rah rah rah be true to your school
Rah rah rah be true to your school
Rah rah rah be true to your school The Beach Boys, (back before you were born) - circa '67

Cher m'sieur or madame Divine,

I haven't finished perusing the list of staff, and guest lecturers nor the program curriculum yet. Many of the links to the university calendar are dead, which doesn't help. That having been said, in the survey course in aviation, first year, there is a note in the course materials that seems germane:

Plagarism: Students must write their papers and assignments in their own words. Whenever students take an idea, or a passage from another author, they must acknowledge their debt both by using quotation marks where appropriate and by proper referencing such as footnotes or citations. Plagarism is a major academic offence (see Scholastic Offence Policy in the Western Academic Calendar).

AuxBAt correctly pointed out that you quoted the CF website without attribution. Your response was not one that will get you any points in class.

Education is good. You will find yourself attending training throughout your career. One of the things to aid in your education is a little cynicism regarding program hype. Not necessarily your school's but everything. Bank loans, car purchases... In the case of the school hype, perhaps UWO has the first operational stand-alone undergrad aviation program. But Royal Roads, and Concordia have had graduate programs in aviation. McGill has had a tie-in through the CITT/ CIM designation for 35 years. I understand Mount Allison and Moncton Flight College also have an articulated degree. Seneca, has under the Colleges and Universities Act, the power to confer a degree. Their's is in technology rather than management but the fruits of studies there are available to grads soon after graduation. There are few grads entering the ranks of management in their early 20's... unless the title is "Assistant ramp services manager"

I like the idea of a management and org studies degree for new pilots. I have one though, so I won't be competing with your cohort this year. I might have competed with your dad's perhaps. Without a deeper review though, I think it is important for you to understand that the aviation component of the degree is more of a minor than a significant concentration. I would urge you to look at Cranfield University's offerings in Aviation Management & Accident Investigation, or USC's in Safety Management, for yourself 15 years down the way. I would urge your prof's to look at how UND has developed their program, how UTexas at Austin has developed CRM programs, and at how Georgian has developed their internships.

As a student body, you should push UWO to develop an advisory council of experienced pilots, maintainers and aviation operations managers. The aviation faculty has two evident strengths: aviation human factors, and airport management. Not apparent is flight ops experience. In this respect, Seneca has it all over Western. As consumers, why doesn't Empire hire more graduates as instructors, and why don't they improve the course content for the frozen ATPL?

As you progress through your career, you will get advise from everyone who has ever sat in an aircraft, whether they were production test pilots or simply sat in seat 19D. Learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, and accept it all gracefully.

There are, if you are in the ROTP program, people here in the CF, at the trainee, initial and graduate training level, as well as a leavening of staff officers, and retired drivers flying for a few dozen organizations; who can answer questions you have yet to consider. While your enthusiasm is commendable, you are at the asking, not expounding, stage. So, take advantage of what's here, and ask. Let your school do most of their own marketing, and perhaps some website repairs.

Your alumni are here. I know a couple. They can cheer for the school with the best of them. They made great use of this and other forums. You can too.

[ehvee8r]

Folks,

As an 3 - year alumni of the program I can say without a doubt that personally this was a the best education decision I ever made. This degree has led me to a 2 year stint in the airline management side with a large airline, and now I have gone back to the flying side where I am a FO on a medium jet. BUT this was a decision that suited me, I cannot say that this program is for everyone - everyone has there own capabilities whether it be finances, academics, time or whatever. ( UWO CAM students or Alumni ..please correct me if I am wrong..)

AS far as comparing it to other programs I sure as hell cannot say it is better than Senecas, Sault's or Jimbo Jone's flight school...for me personally I wanted the university degree more than the flying at that point in my life. The degree is a lot of work but I enjoyed every moment of it (exceptions to some courses!). And the flight training 3-4 years ago was really fantastic, I cannot say about how it is now, I have not been there in a while..

To those folks who are weary about the cost, let me tell you that If you are hell bent enough to get a university degree and do your flying ( and Good for you!).. there are ways to lower the costs. One of the things available in a University enivornment are scholarships and bursaries. I can tell you from my experience (although a few years dated) that a good 20-25% of my academic investment was covered through scholarships and bursaries. I am not sure what the current cost of the program is..but back then it was quite a bit and this really helped me out. The rest was financed through OSAP..which I covered through working along with the full course load in University... so needless to say my social life was in the gutter..but the hard work paid off.

Folks, the environment today is changing (although a little slowly in Canada), employers just like in other corporate jobs want people who can bring more to the companies, they want well rounded individuals and they want people with ideas. Basically the attributes that are instilled in a post-secondary education. That does not mean that UWO produces the best pilots, or management professionals etc. to me it was only a way of becoming well rounded, and gaining ideas. I am sure that pilots from other schools are just or maybe even more successful at what they do, but you get as much as what you put into your education.

Here's my 2 cents... maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right.. thats how I see it.

[L1011]

P.S. in CAM we aren't all about academics....just recently I overheard some of our CAM students are doing a human factor study on what ALCOHOL's effect is on flying. I don't know the details, but what they supposedly did was drink beers and fly in the simulator...and measure how well they did....and if this is something you are interested in.....then Western is the place for you

If the sim had the ability to simulate the change in altitude, a BIG part of the negative effects of mixing drinking and flying, then maybe this "study" would be more legit.

I'm not really interested in drinking and flying, so I guess Western is not the place for me.

[dune]

I can't wait till the original poster finishes his license, and starts his aviation career. I too have friends at the various places listed in his "where our grads end up" list. Everyone starts at the bottom.

Bottom being- chucking bags into the back of a plane in YFB -40 35G40... Then watching the plane depart without him because he has to load another one, being the helpful keener ramp dude that he will be. Opinions change quick

When times are tight, sure the degree might be a deciding factor, but not until way later in your career, and only if you meet their requirements (jet time, heavy time, ifr time, total time, pic....) Not to mention the fact that while you are in school for 4 years, your best flying buddy, Joe Blow, who started at the same time as you but went to Billy Bobs flight school, is busy building 3000 hours of flight time, and will be your captain when you get your first job.

Anyways, have fun, and enjoy the road to wherever you want to go.. its a fun one!

[ToFlyIsDivine]

some very valid points

[Boeing boy]

some very valid points

I agree, so many valid points. After reading through all of these arguements, I'm back into the confused stage. I'm not sure whether to go to college (Seneca, Confederation, Sault) or the UWO CAM program which is in my hometown of London, Ontario. I am interested in both college and university, but now I'm starting to lean more to the college side. I know my parents wouldn't like it if I went to college...but it seems alot more cheaper than UWO's program.

What do I do?

P.S. I'm currently in the 12th grade.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

In the end, only you can decide what you want to do for your education, and you shouldn't let your parent's opinion determine where you will spend thousands of dollars and several years of your life. You've got to go with what feels right to you after you've got all the information on the subject. And when it's all said and done, they'll be just as proud of you graduating from college as university.

[trey kule]

Tofly.

You have made some pretty strong statements. In your assment of the potential of all this perhaps you could tell us how old you are and how much life experience you have had since high school, particularily in this industry.

Quite frankly, you come across as either a spokesperson for the university or a zealot. good on your decision for you, but it maybe is not the best for everyone. I dont know many aviaition companies that want 22 year old management or airlines that want 240 hour pilots.

And before you ask, I have both an undergraduate and a postgraduate degree and an ATPL. plus 30 plus years in the business. Some of these other posters comments make perfect sense to me. If this is a debate you can hold your position, otherwise you might give some thought to their ideas.

[Boeing boy]

"I dont know many aviaition companies that want 22 year old management or airlines that want 240 hour pilots."

You make a good point. The only reason I want to go to UWO is because it is very close to me, so no moving.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Tofly.

You have made some pretty strong statements. In your assment of the potential of all this perhaps you could tell us how old you are and how much life experience you have had since high school, particularily in this industry.

Quite frankly, you come across as either a spokesperson for the university or a zealot. good on your decision for you, but it maybe is not the best for everyone. I dont know many aviaition companies that want 22 year old management or airlines that want 240 hour pilots.

And before you ask, I have both an undergraduate and a postgraduate degree and an ATPL. plus 30 plus years in the business. Some of these other posters comments make perfect sense to me. If this is a debate you can hold your position, otherwise you might give some thought to their ideas.

There may not be many aviation companies, but I do know of several alum that have graduated and moved on to aviation companies as managers and management of AC Jazz even to Transport Canada. Furthermore, I never said this would be the best for everyone, however I'm merely informing the general public to another possibility.

[styles]

So I've read all three pages of this post and I loved how it started off in big bold letters basically saying "COME TO UWO"

Now ToFly has dwindled down to saying... "I'm just letting people know we exist"

From FL350 to Sea Level online, good on ya peeps.

-styles

[ToFlyIsDivine]

So I've read all three pages of this post and I loved how it started off in big bold letters basically saying "COME TO UWO"

Now ToFly has dwindled down to saying... "I'm just letting people know we exist"

From FL350 to Sea Level online, good on ya peeps.

-styles

haha great joke styles...however the whole point of this post was program awareness....its the basic recurring theme....its unfortunate you couldn't catch that....

[mcrit]

Guys, I think we've given 2Fly's purple pride enough of a reality check and he gets the point. I mean, after all, he couldn't get into Queen's or Waterloo (ie, he had to settle for WeStErN), so his life sucks enough. There's no need to keep beating on him here. (Jokes dude)

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Guys, I think we've given 2Fly's purple pride enough of a reality check and he gets the point. I mean, after all, he couldn't get into Queen's or Waterloo (ie, he had to settle for WeStErN), so his life sucks enough. There's no need to keep beating on him here. (Jokes dude)

hahahaha...in fact I got accepted to both of those as well as McGill and U of T

[AUGER9]

hahahaha...in fact I got accepted to both of those as well as McGill and U of T

whoa!

[Boeing boy]

Nice! Congratulations...and what do you know boys..he chose Western out of all of them. Good job ToFlyIsDivine! I will be attending Western's CAM Program in the fall next year too- that is if I get accepted. I made my decision.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Congrats Boeing Boy for making a great decision!

[AuxBatOn]

Congrats Boeing Boy for making a great decision!

If he made the decision to go to Sault, would that have been good decision too?

[just curious]

No, too many mosquitos in the Sault. Con college would have been an acceptable decision.

[mcrit]

If he made the decision to go to Sault, would that have been good decision too?

Well....he would have wound up with good hands and feet.

[L1011]

If he made the decision to go to Sault, would that have been good decision too?

Well....he would have wound up with good hands and feet.

And a lot more money in his pocket!

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Congrats Boeing Boy for making a great decision!

If he made the decision to go to Sault, would that have been good decision too?

The decision is his, so if he were to go to Sault, and if he made that decision then it must be a good decision. For him at least.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

No, too many mosquitos in the Sault. Con college would have been an acceptable decision.

yup