Cry me a river...

[Siddley Hawker]

As soon as the car industry goes down the toilet so will energy, & mining..

Take a look at Tech-Cominco stock over the last six months or so. Read 'em and weep.

[iflyforpie]

VW TDI engines are made in the Czec Republic
VW Jetta is assembled in Mexico.. hey that's North American, I love it I own one
VW Golf is assembled in Brazil.
Some Honda's are assembled in Ontario so are some Toyoto's
BMW suv's which are shit mobiles BTW are assembled in one of those southern states like Alabama or Louisianna
VolvoS40 is a Ford, same chassy as a Mazda3 and a Ford Focus. Mazda is cheaper, a lot cheaper. Volvo uses their own engines the Ford and Mazda use the Duratec 4 which is a Mazda engine
My Ford 4x4 Ranger has a Mazda engine. It's a gas guzzler, but otherwise a good little truck.

I love my 100% Swedish (well, with a little German and French in there) Volvo but I wouldn't buy anything from them newer than 1993 when things started to get complicated and 'Ford like'. My VW was Mexican all the way, but it was still German engineered and light years ahead of anything domestic I owned. I've heard the Mercedes ML500s are absolute crap and are assembled in North America.

Sharing platforms doesn't necessarily mean the same reliability/quality. Just look at the early 80s VW Rabbit/Dogde Omni/Plymouth Horizon. You see lots of old Rabbits, but the Omni? Same with the 1980s Toyota Corolla/Chevy Nova. Corollas never die but the Novas?

But I haven't heard anything bad about the Pontiac Vibe compared to the Toyota Matrix yet.

[Driving Rain]

I hear ya iflyforpie. The VW/Audi 4 platform is one of the best from VW. The Audi TT, Jetta, Golf and new Beetle all use it. Too bad we can't get the 4motion drivetrain in North America except in the TT.
I suspect with the world economies going in the crapper we will be driving our old platforms for quite some time.

[BigB]

...you've got to admit, if that ship sinks, we're doomed......

Actually I vehemently disagree with that. I will be so bold as to say, if we bail them out, then we're doomed. If you give them....any company..... $1, the rest will follow. GE, P&G, BH, J&J? Once THE precedent is set, all the cards will fall!

Thank goodness we didn't set any precedents by bailing out the financial industry!

I couldn't agree with you more. It all started IMO with the AIG bailout. Fanny and Freddy were looked upon by the average Joe Schmoe as more institutional, so there was minimal backlash from the average taxpayer. AIG, comparatively speaking, was viewed as more retail. From there on, the entire bailout concept has been trending towards a more retail level. The financial bailout was very much an obscure concept to the average person. However, now that we're getting down to a more understandable level of the retail economy, people are finally starting to voice their opinions on where their tax money is going.

It has now gotten down to the level where the Canadian Automobile Dealers Association (CADA) is claiming: "...As economic cornerstones of almost every community in Canada, the pain of auto dealers will be felt on main streets and other small businesses from coast to coast." Wow, I didn't know that the local car dealerships were, what they purport to be, "cornerstones".

Give it enough time....weeks, months, years...and every small retailer will claim that they're "cornerstones" of local economies.

Create enough fear by selling yourself as being indispensable ...vital... crucial to the economy, and chances are you'll get a cheque...care of your friendly taxpayer. No-one, no company, is indispensable. Someone, another will always step up to the plate.

[BoostedNihilist]

Sharing platforms doesn't necessarily mean the same reliability/quality. Just look at the early 80s VW Rabbit/Dogde Omni/Plymouth Horizon. You see lots of old Rabbits, but the Omni? Same with the 1980s Toyota Corolla/Chevy Nova. Corollas never die but the Novas?

hmm, gotta call BS on that one. I don't see too many of either running around, the only thing that keeps either on the road is the enthusiast market. Besides, the omni was 10x the car the rabbit was.

There are tons of k-series vehicles running around, you just have to look for them. I personally have owned a few omnis over the last five years and have always sold them in roadworthy reliable condition. In fact, the worst iteration of the omni has a VW engine in it! a PUSHROD VW engine! The dodge factory 2.2 whips it all day long and is pretty much bulletproof, so much for superior german engineering in that context.

Besides, they were designed by simca which is a french organization... 2cv anyone?

[iflyforpie]

Pushrod VW? For liquid cooled engines that does not compute. You are talking about the Simca Engine.



The reason why the K-series engine was as good as it was is because they used many of VWs design features after having experience with the VW engine. Like a cast-iron block with an aluminum cylinder head, and single overhead cam with direct actuation of inline valves.

It is interesting to note that the power it produced was quite a bit less than VW engines of equivalent displacement.

[BoostedNihilist]

Whoops, my bad. the engine I had in my omni was stamped VW and was an OHC model you are right, however, it still sucked in comparison to the 2.2 which i've also owned a few of over the years. The simca engine was by far the worst.

I will qualify my sucked statement... it was really hard to get parts for. at 140k it was blowing smoke like a hoo.. well, it was blowing a lot of smoke. I have nothing wrong with european cars but they are not the be all and end all standard by which everything should be judged. Everyone heaps praise on the few good companies out of europe and conveniently forget the likes of SAAB and Yugo...

[BigB]

K-car...Schmae car. This is the wave of the future.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2008/11/lemon.html

[BoostedNihilist]

It is interesting to note that the power it produced was quite a bit less than VW engines of equivalent displacement.

I don't get if we're talking apples and oranges here, but in the omnis case they produced nearly identical hp/l ratios.

[bandaid]

Sort of off the topic cuz the original was about the bail out. I have to ask, what is with all the burnt out lights on volkswagon? I notice more vw's with burnt out tail lights, signals, head lights then any other product out there.

[Rowdy]

The carb'd HO 2.2L is a hell of an engine.. most of the other series were as well. The 2.2 and 2.5 turbos (other than a headgasket defect issue) are bulletproof. The power potential is huge. The 2.2 also was NOT based off the VW motors.. it shares more with the slant six than anything else. The K platform was just what was needed at the time. The last actual K car rolled off in 1989.. and they trudged on for a long time for JUST a shitbox economy car. Pretty much everything was based of that architecture.. they all shared brake, suspension, engine and driveline components, which meant repairs were inexpensive and parts readily available and all the techs knew the platforms inside and out. From omni to Caravan.. It also means stuff like the later and bigger caravn brakes will bolt up to the omni etc. Oh and the GLH blew the GTI away

However.. I haven't seen anything roll off the american assembly lines in a long while that I'd actually shill out some hard earned coinage for. Well.. cept for maybe a 'vette

[BoostedNihilist]

Rowdy

don't you have an old omni that will blow a new vette away?

[Rowdy]

Yeppers.. 240hp at 12psi with the cam timing way off and a fault with the charge temp sensor (richening the mix)

Blows the tires away through all three gears. Gonna love to see what it does at 20psi on pump gas... Driveable? hahahaha

It'll also outhandle and outbrake the 'vette too!

[Changes in Latitudes]

The problem is no matter how fast you go, ugly is always right there when you stop.

[Phaedrus]

No problem mate- just remove the rearview mirror.

[xsbank]

How can you compare an '88 Chev pickup with what they need to sell in 2009? What an asinine comparison. Go and sit down and crack a beer and think about it a bit then get back to us.

The unionized guys go to work and they do whatever task they are told to do. They don't make any (real) decisions on how the junk is built. None. You also cannot blame them for negotiating their share of the pie. Now the pie has been eaten by the people that make the decisions there and the lunch-buckets had better have been saving over the years because just like the dot-com situation, they're going to be out on the street.

[Rowdy]

The problem is no matter how fast you go, ugly is always right there when you stop.

I figured of all people your momma woulda told ya that it's whats on the inside that counts

and Xs.. again.. nail on the head. They're only doing what they've been shown and told to do.

[albertdesalvo]

The unionized guys go to work and they do whatever task they are told to do. They don't make any (real) decisions on how the junk is built. None. You also cannot blame them for negotiating their share of the pie. Now the pie has been eaten by the people that make the decisions there and the lunch-buckets had better have been saving over the years because just like the dot-com situation, they're going to be out on the street.

Don't bet on it. And why do they need to make decisions on how the cars are built? They're just very well paid robots. BTW, the parking lot at the Oshawa truck plant has been a drug supermarket forever, and those stoned robots still managed to make some pretty damn good trucks that lasted a very long time. You think those vaunted workers at Toyota & Honda make any decisions about how the cars are built?

[Icebound]

..

You think those vaunted workers at Toyota & Honda make any decisions about how the cars are built?

... actually, THEY DO


http://www.drmikeloh.com/rantings/enabling.htm


....

[albertdesalvo]

... actually, THEY DO ....

This is just bafflegab. An assembly line is an assembly line. You go to your station and you attach Part A to Part B all day long. Now you might have a suggestion for a way to do this more easily, and your boss may implement your suggestion, but at the end of the day you're still standing at your station attaching Part A to Part B as the cars roll by. You might be making Toyotas or you might be making Fords, it really makes no difference. It may very well be true that Toyota has a happier workforce, I mean they could have put HD televisions in the lunchroom at the employees' request etc, but in terms of actually affecting the way the cars are built, there's no way. It is an assembly line that cost many millions of dollars to design and construct, and it's not stopping.

It really bugs me the way some people here have expressed glee at the fact autoworkers are losing their jobs. Doing a mind numbing job like that for 20 years and then getting canned before you can collect your pension is cruel & unusual punishment. I didn't see any auto workers gloating when aviation went down the toilet after 9/11.