FIRST ONE TO BUFFALO GETS A CHECKOUT

[fingersmac]

Who has $15K plus the cost of operating a small airplane available to them when they finish getting their licenses and ratings? I certainly didn't! How many years at a McJob is it going to take to even amass that amount of money let alone covering your living expenses and paying off debt incurred from flight training?

Ramp/office position to flight line is a viable option to new pilots trying to get a start in the industry. There are plenty of companies that offer positions like these and don't treat their employees like crap. I think we can safely say that everyone would love to have a flying job right out of school but it's just not possible for everyone. I can say from my experience that working up north on the ramp was a much better way to go then working at McDonalds trying to make ends meet while looking for that illusive entry level flying position.

[Just another canuck]

I don't think it's wrong to work the dock or ramp... that's what I did and worked out for me as it did for most people out there.

But I would like to know why everyone keeps bringing up McDonald's... it's not the only job out there. Go swing a hammer or bash tin. Get a job in a yard that has heavy equipment... before you know it you'll be operating the dozer or loader. The best paying job I have had to date is running a front end loader in Calgary with clamp forks... loading trailers.

Anyway, it's not hard to get a good paying job. The construction crew might not pay you that well at first, but if you learn quick, you'll be making decent cash in a few months and might even be able to get it under the table.

Guess what I'm saying is this buying an airplane idea doesn't seem all that bad. Plus you could probably rent it out to PPL and CPL students or busy flight schools. Man, I should have done this.

['effin hippie]

In my few years in aviation I have had 2, not one but 2 FO's who never touched the ramp, both of whom viewed changing the seats in the KA as beneath them, and complained loudly and ceaselessly about it. Installing a few seats for crying out loud. Sorry if I offend, but I have noticed that the really arrogant douche-bags, the ones I really cannot abide (and I am a pretty patient guy) have always been the guys who slid right in, never had to get their hands dirty. It's not always that way, most direct entry guys are real gentlemen. But ALL the douche-bags have been direct entry guys.
Seriously, all you veterans out there campaigning against the ramp are not making this better, you are just pushing incipient douche-bags into full douche-bag-ness.

Face FACTS. Employers, for whatever reasons, good or bad, are not going to give this up; so imagine making it illegal, now what? Way I see it, it would just become a popularity/ass-kissing contest and I for one, am way too unpleasant an individual to have ever got ahead that way.

Who even cares for chrissakes? What the hell is a few months on the ramp at the beginning of a career? Wow, sleazy operators take advantage of guys?!!! Holy f*** call CNN. Avoid sleaze-bags like the plague I agree, but of all the shitty things shitty operators do, this barely ranks.

Ideally I would advise a wannabe to get a ramp job while getting licensed.

ef

[Just another canuck]

Good point ef. Guys straight out of flight school generally have attitudes. And some of those attitudes are really out there and need to be knocked down a peg. The ramp is good way of doing that... I guess.

Changing seats in the van... I remember doing it so much on the ramp that it made me cringe watching others try, so I just did it myself anyway. I like the fact that I know how to get a herman going when it's acting up. Same with honda pumps. I used to build seat bins and garbage bins and shit. This stuff is not useless. It carries over.

[Cat Driver]

In my few years in aviation I have had 2, not one but 2 FO's who never touched the ramp, both of whom viewed changing the seats in the KA as beneath them, and complained loudly and ceaselessly about it.

If they were my FO's they would become straight and level autopilots, landings and take off's of course require disconnecting the auto pilot.

[Just another canuck]

If they were my FO's they would become straight and level autopilots, landings and take off's of course require disconnecting the auto pilot.

[Cat Driver]

Well scopiton, I'm still waiting for your response to your trying to make it look like it is harder to get a job now compared to when I started.

[Doc]

This is the only industry I can think of where the term "direct entry" is used to refer to a job people were trained to do. A job the person has a license to perform. Only in aviation is it acceptable, to be used as cheap labour for employers. Indeed, it's expected by their peers. Their peers actually look negatively on the people who get the "direct entry" positions, like they're not as worthy as the ones dumb enough to accept the status quo for what it is? Slavery. Only pilots would refuse to see how this is exploitation. Only in aviation would you come across employees too dense to see how this is wrong.
But then, only in aviation will you get people willing to buy their jobs. To spend 15K in the instance of VAL, or 30K in the instance of companies like Jets Go. Same mentality at work here.

[canpilot]

I'd think you'd need build up you're hours to at least 1,000 hours. (Depending on the job) It seems like if you are trying to go right seat 1,000+ is the dividing line between direct entry and the ramp. Correct me if I am wrong.. it seems like some companies don't even take direct entry fo's anymore... just ramp guys only (I can see the logic of not wanting to short change the ramp guys). Yes, the captains would come from within or elsewhere.


But I agree.. if you are looking at non-IFR/right seat work the idea of buying a small / cheap aircraft would work nicely assuming you have the dough.

If you choose to ramp at a place while you get licensed make sure you will have enough time split between flying studies and working the ramp. You don't wanna be working 12+ hour days and going nowhere with flight training. (this happened to me) But hey .. it works in theory.. once you are done with you're flight training all things being equal ..ur in a seat .. YAAY!

[godsrcrazy]

I love this topic and people like Doc that think spending $15,000 $30,000 or even $100,000 buys you the right to go directly into the right seat. The fact is as said in many posts a lot of companies use these positions to monitor and figure out just what they have and have hired. In today’s industry most pilots are spineless. I have watched captains fly with F/Os and F/Os fly with captains that sit back and watch some of the dumbest things go on. After they prang some thing or get fired everyone runs into the chief pilots office with it was only a matter of time speech why did you keep this guy so long. As the chief pilot sits there dumb founded because nobody wants to be the rat.

I must clear 1 thing up I do not agree with anyone working the ramp or any job for starvation wages. I think everyone should be paid a far wage for a far days work no matter if you are shoveling S--- working the ramp or flying.

I think this topic has got way off and I VOTE Doc for President. He will insure everyone goes direct entry and nobody has to sign a bond to back their word because we are pilots and dam it we are all good for our word.


Mods you should change the name of this as it really has switched away from Buffalo to all companies that hire pilots as rampies

[mag check]

Would it maybe make more sense for the new pilot, with his fresh cpl, to forget the low pay ramp job,and abuse that goes with it, get a job ANYWHERE else(McD's, Crappy tire), forget buying the new car that all his buddys have, and buy a 15000 dollar luscombe, and pound off the hours. Fly as much as he/she can, wheels, skis, floats. Now the kid has 7-800 hours of time after the first year, knows how to fly an underpowered plane out of small area's, has good hands and feet etc.
Now sell the plane for probably 15000 dollars, and go get the job without needing to work the ramp.

If you are going to follow a career in flying, then fly.

mag check that is probably the smartest thing i have read on this thread yet. perhaps i should unload the new jeep and go that route. but what would maintaining, storing, licensing, and whatever else cost per year?

Well, 15000 loan would be about 300 per month, insurance about 100 a month, maintainance about 100 per month, storing about 100 per month, fuel, based on 800 hours for the year, about 1000 per month.
soooo, 1600 per month give or take. If you got a homebuilt, or owner maint. aircraft, then the costs could be even less. Plenty of jobs that will easily cover that.

Then you sell the plane, for 15000, plus you have already paid a couple of grand on the loan. The year of time building cost 19000, but you come away with 2 grand from the sale, so roughly it cost you 17 grand to build 800 hours of quality time, not to mention memories to last a lifetime.
Or, keep the plane, and enjoy it for the next 40 years.

[Cap'n P8]

Okay $1600.00/month...for the airplane what about rent, groceries, student loans, misc expenses, recreation (other than flying).

If this was such a valid option everyone would be doing it!

[mag check]

Okay $1600.00/month...for the airplane what about rent, groceries, student loans, misc expenses, recreation (other than flying).

If this was such a valid option everyone would be doing it!

Well, the wage given at the beginnig of this thread said he was only making 1000 bucks a month, so if he was able to pay his other expenses for that 1000, then you would need a job that pays at least 2600 per month. You can make that swinging a hammer, or driving a dump truck, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

Plus, if a guy really thought about this BEFORE starting the cpl course, you could buy the plane before dumping 60000 into a school, and do all the training in your own plane, for at least 1/3 the cost. Pretty simple math. All it takes is some thought, before getting into a student loan that will take 10 plus years to pay off.

[Cat Driver]

I love this topic and people like Doc that think spending $15,000 $30,000 or even $100,000 buys you the right to go directly into the right seat.

Hmmmm....

Doc says that pilots who just got their CPL should go directly into the right seat?

What is wrong with putting them into the drivers seat of a single engine airplane?

[Doc]

I love this topic and people like Doc that think spending $15,000 $30,000 or even $100,000 buys you the right to go directly into the right seat.

Hmmmm....

Doc says that pilots who just got their CPL should go directly into the right seat?

What is wrong with putting them into the drivers seat of a single engine airplane?

Funny thing is, Doc never said pilots who just got their CPL should go directly into the right seat. What Doc did say, is a pilot should be hired as a "pilot". This may be the "right" seat...or, it could be the "left" seat. Circumstances alter cases.

[TheBearCavalry]

1

[godsrcrazy]

TheBearCavalary I cant agree more this has got way of topic as i said in my last post

Doc it appears you and Cat are a bit on the same wave length which slightly disappoints me. I don't see how people feel that you should hire some low timer off the street and give him or her a few hours training then just cut them lose. Or hire them them of the street give them $5,000.00 worth of training or more and not understand there mind set.

[Cat Driver]

Doc it appears you and Cat are a bit on the same wave length which slightly disappoints me.

Disappoints you? You are disappointed that we feel once a pilot receives her/his commercial pilots license they are not qualified to get a job flying a commercial airplane?

I don't see how people feel that you should hire some low timer off the street and give him or her a few hours training then just cut them lose.

Could that be because you are from a generation that has been brain washed to believe you should first prove you will work at something you did not train for, or do they now have a new addition to the CPL that trains you for a ground labour position before you actually get to use the CPL?

Or hire them them of the street give them $5,000.00 worth of training or more and not understand there mind set.

What mind set are you referring to?

[Lurch]

TheBearCavalary I cant agree more this has got way of topic as i said in my last post

Doc it appears you and Cat are a bit on the same wave length which slightly disappoints me. I don't see how people feel that you should hire some low timer off the street and give him or her a few hours training then just cut them lose. Or hire them them of the street give them $5,000.00 worth of training or more and not understand there mind set.

Man aren't we brainwashed

They aren't going to have anymore training then they came in with after a year on the ramp. If anything they will forget what little they learned prior to slinging bags.

Why can't the CP properly interview prospective employees? This is how other industries weed out the idiots.

If you can't sit down with somebody for 1/2 hour and not realize their personality then you shouldn't be interviewing them.

If somebody wants to work the ramp to pay the bills while they wait for a spot to open up instead of working at a McJob fine, but they should all be considered for the same job, no matter how long they have worked the ramp.

Arguing this is like digging a hole in the sand at the tide line. No matter how much progress is made there will always be some idiot right there to fill the hole.

Lurch

[Cat Driver]

The way I hired pilots was not really complicated.

I interviewed them and made notes of things I might want to check out.

I flew with them.

If I felt they deserved a chance at the job and hired them they were on probation and if they did not meet the requirements they were let go.

[stef]

I've been following this thread and others regarding hiring ramp workers with great interest as the company where I work hires for the ramp and tries to promote from within.

Where guys have a decent schedule, and are well paid I think it can hardly be called slave labour.

We like to hire pilots as ramp workers for two reasons. They often (not always) have proven more reliable than some of the locals in our northern community. We also get to know the people very well before they are at the controls of a multi million dollar machine, and have a chance to advance their flight training little by little throughout their time on the ramp. Pilots promoted from the ramp and from the office are consistently our best pilots, as they are quite familiar with our operation and really learn how to take care of their machines, and to keep themselves safe. The former office workers are particluarly good at their jobs as they have gotten to know our customers very well over the years and also know well intricacies of our operation that few "outside hire" pilots will ever be able to pick up.

As long as the supply of new pilots exceeds the number of direct flying jobs available, we are very happy to have them as employees before they start to fly full time. Although they aren't doing exactly the job they had intended, they will be fairly paid and will have the best schedule I can provide to suit their needs. They also can be assured that when their chance comes they will be trained to fly.

I don't think these conditions can be considered "slave labour." I don't think our employees are being taken advantage of at all. I think it is a mutually beneficial arrangement.

(1000k per month with no time off is illegal and should not be tolerated.)

[Cat Driver]

We also get to know the people very well before they are at the controls of a multi million dollar machine,

After they have proved themselves working on the ground you turn them loose all by themselves in a multi million dollar machine?

[Just another canuck]

lose

For a guy who complains about people's grammar/spelling???

We also get to know the people very well before they are at the controls of a multi million dollar machine,

So once they're capable of handling the broom with extreme caution, the multi-million dollar machine is next.

We all wish the ramp was a step you could skip... or the dock... or even instructing I guess. Fact is you gotta do it. And Doc and Cat, you can say don't do it, but guys are probably burning themselves by waiting for that direct entry job, whether it be left or right seat.... not all the time, but the majority. Sucks, but that's just the way it is.

[Cat Driver]

not all the time, but the majority. Sucks, but that's just the way it is.

Then that is truly a sad state of affairs.

[C-GGGQ]

The way I hired pilots was not really complicated.

I interviewed them and made notes of things I might want to check out.

I flew with them.

If I felt they deserved a chance at the job and hired them they were on probation and if they did not meet the requirements they were let go.

Holy Sh!t, you mean it works like a normal job