1300 People Killed, 5400 Injured in Occupied Palestine

[BoostedNihilist]

So complex.

It is my understanding that short of the orthodoxy every member of the Israeli state is required to serve in the military.

If this is the case then discriminating between those who are active and those who are not is a red herring. They are all part of it at one point in time therefore they are all fair targets.

The palestinian militants hide amongst the populace. They are protected de facto by the populace, therefore the populace is a legitimate target.

The sad fact is both sides have a legitimate beef with the situation as it exists today. Unfortunately their beef is mutually exclusive and in order for the beef to be truly put to rest someone either has to compromise or someone has to disappear.

A dirty stinking mess over there and nobody is willing to be the better man. Let's have a war free from outside influence and support and get the dirty business over with. The longer this goes on the more likely genocide will become the only solution.

[Four1oh]

I'm a born again Pastafarian, I could use a few acres...

[sky's the limit]

So don't waste your time chastising me simply because I posted something that you disagree with.

Believe me, I'm not wasting my time.

As I told you via PM, it has nothing to do with your opinion, it's how you state it.

As for guidance on this issue - being a Mod has zero to do with it, being educated on the topic, interested, and aware of the history surrounding the issues does. You can feel free to post whatever opinions you wish, but if they are flippant and unfounded as many of your rantings tend to be, expect them to be dismantled by the few people (on either side of the fence) here who care to take the time.

Comments like this one show your understanding for what it is - marginal at best:

You don't get it, do you? The Palestinians started launching rockets into Gaza unprovoked.

stl

[still_bluenoser]

This thread is making me sleepy.

Bullshit being thrown from both sides, but this website is a little too left leaning for my taste.

[Dash-Ate]

I think it's really sad how Israel breeds hatred and fanaticism into their kids. The scary part is these little angels will be holding a gun in a few years...just imagine what fun they will have.

Their hearts are filled with hate, they kill with glee and willingness. Little brownshirts!

[Rudderless]

That is so not true! They enter the military because they have to, most of them would rather just live a normal life if that was possible. However, the circumstances Israel finds itself in makes it necessary to have everyone serve in the military. If Hamas etc. would just let them be, there would not be situations like we have now. Hamas said they would end the ceasefire, and so they did. Israel responded with attacks on Hamas locations. Other options anyone?

[Dash-Ate]

I found the warmongers!


US Veto Blocks UN Anti-Israel Resolution


By Press TV

December 28, 2008 "Press TV" -- -The UN Security Council has been unable to force an end to Israeli attacks against Gaza due to the intervention of the United States.Washington once again used its veto powers on Sunday to block a resolution calling for an end to the massive ongoing Israeli attacks against the Gaza Strip.

The council has only been able to issue a 'non-binding' statement that calls on Israel to voluntarily bring all its military activities in the besieged region to an immediate end.

The statement comes as Israel has begun a fresh wave of air strikes on Gaza on Sunday, killing at least six people. At least 230 people were killed and 800 wounded in similar attacks on Saturday. The number of Palestinians deaths has so far risen to 271.

The council called on the parties to address the humanitarian crisis in the territory but has not criticized the Israeli air attacks.

Croatian UN Ambassador Neven Jurica read out the non-binding statement on behalf of the 15-member body that "called for an immediate halt to all violence" and on the parties "to stop immediately all military activities."

"The members of the Security Council expressed serious concern at the escalation of the situation in Gaza," he said, as the president of the council.

The council also requested the opening of border crossings into Gaza to address the serious humanitarian and economic needs in Gaza and to ensure medical treatment and a continuous supply of food and fuel.

US representative to the UNSC, Zalmay Khalilzad, defended the Israeli move, saying Tel Aviv has the right to self-defense.

"I regret the loss of any of all innocent life," he said, adding that Hamas rockets precipitated this situation.

Palestinian fighters in the Gaza Strip say they fire rockets into Israel in retaliation for the daily Israeli attacks against them. Unlike the state-of-the-art Israeli weapons and ammunition, the home-made Qassam rockets rarely cause casualties.

The US, a staunch ally to Israel, has so far vetoed over 40 anti-Israeli resolutions sought by the council since 1972.

Since 2004, Washington has prevented the adoption of four other resolutions that called for Tel Aviv to halt its operations in the Gaza Strip.

[ScudRunner]

A lot of people look at a map and say "well the Palestinians have there land and the Israelis have there's",its not that simple how they got that territory right or wrong isn't what I want to debate. It is the simple fact that Israel controls everything coming into there territory every aspect of there country is not determind by their own people, zero freedom. Election are held and the people voted the "wrong" party in. How many Democratic movements started out in resistance and the once outlawed party's are the first to govern a fledgling democratic nation. Over time these democracy's evolved into there own style of mature government, today you would be very hard pressed to find any similarities between such resistance organizations and the mature Democratic governments if they even still exist in that country.

A lot of you missed a point of mine I made in an earlier post. Why Bomb Gaza Now? Why not the other times rockets where launched? hmmmm lets think about this for a second......................Election in Israel in a little over a month? could this be a reason? drum up Nationalism and remind the electorate what there government is doing for them.

But .. you say why would a mature democracy such as Israel need to do such a thing?

Well lets go three dimensionally (Just walk with me on this one), I always say follow the money when things come up that make me go hmmm. Just like during the recent debacle here in our parliament follow the money, you really think that was about the conservatives not having a plan for the economy? Psssst here's a hint They Cut all the Party's Funding

So Israel's upcoming election is a no brainier excuse to attack and kill 300 PEOPLE in a cage. Obviously these people are evil for living next to the guy who works with a guy who support's the killing of 10 Israeli PEOPLE over the past 8 years because the Israeli's killed his brother 15 years ago. So naturally they must be punished because a mature and responsible nation such as Israel wouldn't go to war and kill people with Smart weapons and Artillery supplied by the good friends the Americans ..................Wait a second I read something about a new President coming into Office down there very shortly, a President who said the canned "I Support Israel" Line but didn't say it with enough feeling.

Dear Mr. Obama now that your in Office we are counting on your country's continued support, events in the previous month should show you how we need your support to fight the "Terrorist Evildoers"

Sincerely
Israel

Too Far of a walk folks ............................Have at er

[rigpiggy]

Let's put it this way, if somebody shoots at me or mine, they damn well better kill Me. Because I will shoot back,and I am a fair shot. Simple problem Simple Solution, don't shoot at me.

[ScudRunner]

Let's put it this way, if somebody shoots at me or mine, they damn well better kill Me. Because I will shoot back,and I am a fair shot. Simple problem Simple Solution, don't shoot at me.

So did you shoot at them first or did they shoot at you? Who Shot first?? Buhler Buhler I guess it depends on who shot who's Brother first so if we can figure that out over there its peace a happiness for all, right?

So did you use a shotgun and kill everyone around the guy who shot at you first but you got the guy who you think shot at you in the first place so the means justify the end you got the guy and 10 others so it's justified. But now you have the families of the 10 others wanting to take a shot at you, makes sense to me.

[sky's the limit]

Robert Fisk: Why bombing Ashkelon is the most tragic irony

Tuesday, 30 December 2008



How easy it is to snap off the history of the Palestinians, to delete the narrative of their tragedy, to avoid a grotesque irony about Gaza which – in any other conflict – journalists would be writing about in their first reports: that the original, legal owners of the Israeli land on which Hamas rockets are detonating live in Gaza.

That is why Gaza exists: because the Palestinians who lived in Ashkelon and the fields around it – Askalaan in Arabic – were dispossessed from their lands in 1948 when Israel was created and ended up on the beaches of Gaza. They – or their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren – are among the one and a half million Palestinian refugees crammed into the cesspool of Gaza, 80 per cent of whose families once lived in what is now Israel. This, historically, is the real story: most of the people of Gaza don't come from Gaza.

But watching the news shows, you'd think that history began yesterday, that a bunch of bearded anti-Semitic Islamist lunatics suddenly popped up in the slums of Gaza – a rubbish dump of destitute people of no origin – and began firing missiles into peace-loving, democratic Israel, only to meet with the righteous vengeance of the Israeli air force. The fact that the five sisters killed in Jabalya camp had grandparents who came from the very land whose more recent owners have now bombed them to death simply does not appear in the story.

Both Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres said back in the 1990s that they wished Gaza would just go away, drop into the sea, and you can see why. The existence of Gaza is a permanent reminder of those hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who lost their homes to Israel, who fled or were driven out through fear or Israeli ethnic cleansing 60 years ago, when tidal waves of refugees had washed over Europe in the aftermath of the Second World War and when a bunch of Arabs kicked out of their property didn't worry the world.

Well, the world should worry now. Crammed into the most overpopulated few square miles in the whole world are a dispossessed people who have been living in refuse and sewage and, for the past six months, in hunger and darkness, and who have been sanctioned by us, the West. Gaza was always an insurrectionary place. It took two years for Ariel Sharon's bloody "pacification", starting in 1971, to be completed, and Gaza is not going to be tamed now.

Alas for the Palestinians, their most powerful political voice – I'm talking about the late Edward Said, not the corrupt Yassir Arafat (and how the Israelis must miss him now) – is silent and their predicament largely unexplained by their deplorable, foolish spokesmen. "It's the most terrifying place I've ever been in," Said once said of Gaza. "It's a horrifyingly sad place because of the desperation and misery of the way people live. I was unprepared for camps that are much worse than anything I saw in South Africa."

Of course, it was left to Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni to admit that "sometimes also civilians pay the price," an argument she would not make, of course, if the fatality statistics were reversed. Indeed, it was instructive yesterday to hear a member of the American Enterprise Institute – faithfully parroting Israel's arguments – defending the outrageous Palestinian death toll by saying that it was "pointless to play the numbers game". Yet if more than 300 Israelis had been killed – against two dead Palestinians – be sure that the "numbers game" and the disproportionate violence would be all too relevant. The simple fact is that Palestinian deaths matter far less than Israeli deaths. True, we know that 180 of the dead were Hamas members. But what of the rest? If the UN's conservative figure of 57 civilian fatalities is correct, the death toll is still a disgrace.

To find both the US and Britain failing to condemn the Israeli onslaught while blaming Hamas is not surprising. US Middle East policy and Israeli policy are now indistinguishable and Gordon Brown is following the same dog-like devotion to the Bush administration as his predecessor.

As usual, the Arab satraps – largely paid and armed by the West – are silent, preposterously calling for an Arab summit on the crisis which will (if it even takes place), appoint an "action committee" to draw up a report which will never be written. For that is the way with the Arab world and its corrupt rulers. As for Hamas, they will, of course, enjoy the discomfiture of the Arab potentates while cynically waiting for Israel to talk to them. Which they will. Indeed, within a few months, we'll be hearing that Israel and Hamas have been having "secret talks" – just as we once did about Israel and the even more corrupt PLO. But by then, the dead will be long buried and we will be facing the next crisis since the last crisis.

[AdamB]

The Israelis are only defending their homes.
Catch is, their homes are built on the land the attackers homes stood on only a few decades before.
Methinks the Palestinians want their land back.
So the Palestinians fight for it, and Israelis die.
Israelis get angry, and want revenge. Palestinians die.
Palestinians get angry, and they want revenge too, so more Israelis die.
But now the Israelis are really pissed ... so they go and fight some more, and more people die.
And it goes on, and on, and it won't stop in any of our lifetimes.

I know that is a gross oversimplification, but on a very basic level, I think this has become a war of vengeance.

And on another note - It is nobody's place to call an occupied nations' resistance fighters terrorists - and lets face it, Palestine is an occupied nation.

my 2 cents

[morrow]

Why Bomb Gaza Now? Why not the other times rockets where launched? hmmmm lets think about this for a second......................Election in Israel in a little over a month? could this be a reason? drum up Nationalism and remind the electorate what there government is doing for them.

Good question .. Well there was a six month cease-fire that more-or-less held. But HAMAS announced in advance that they would not continue the truce past the Dec 18 expiry date (despite pleadings from many Arab leaders). True to their word, they fired 300 rockets in the eight days following the cease-fire end.

They also escalated the conflict by introducing longer range missiles (supplied by Iran) that could reach deeper into Israel's more populated areas.

As for the election... good point. Democracies are funny that way. But you know what would have been a better election platform for Kadima to run on..."Israel and HAMAS agree to extend cease-fire saving our children from rocket fire."

[rigpiggy]

Considering that AL-Jazeera, reported that the Palestinians launched over 50 rockets today. Funny how western Media doesn't report that. How many attacks did the Israeli's launch today? If those 10 people stood by while he did it then they are complicit. Simply put if you see a rocket launch go off next to your house get the hell away, cause chances are counter battery fire is coming your way. Until this kind of violence isn't condoned by the general populace, and those who would do this become Pariahs it will never change.

Personally, they should all just grow the F___ UP

Let's put it this way, if somebody shoots at me or mine, they damn well better kill Me. Because I will shoot back,and I am a fair shot. Simple problem Simple Solution, don't shoot at me.

So did you shoot at them first or did they shoot at you? Who Shot first?? Buhler Buhler I guess it depends on who shot who's Brother first so if we can figure that out over there its peace a happiness for all, right?

So did you use a shotgun and kill everyone around the guy who shot at you first but you got the guy who you think shot at you in the first place so the means justify the end you got the guy and 10 others so it's justified. But now you have the families of the 10 others wanting to take a shot at you, makes sense to me.

[morrow]

There is no debate on this subject, it is essentially the US, Britain, and Israel who justify these actions, while the rest of the world writhes in disgust or protects their own interests through silence.

(SPIEGEL ONLINE) German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Monday said the blame for renewed violence in the Middle East can be pinned on Hamas.

Speaking to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert by phone, she said responsibility for the three-day-old Israeli air offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip lies "clearly and exclusively" with Hamas, according to government spokesman Thomas Steg. A statement on the Chancellery Web site referred to Israel's "legitimate right" to defend its people and territory.

PRAGUE (Reuters) - The Czech Republic, which takes over the European Union's presidency on January 1, defended Israel's strikes against Hamas on Tuesday.
Czech Foreign Minister Karel Schwarzenberg said Israel had the right to defend itself.
…

He (Schwarzenberg) also indirectly blamed the group (Hamas) for the growing death toll, saying it put its bases and gun warehouses in densely populated areas.

CAIRO (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas blamed the rival Islamist group Hamas on Sunday for triggering Israel's deadly raids on Gaza by not extending a six-month truce with the Jewish state.
"We talked to them (Hamas) and we told them 'please, we ask you, do not end the truce. Let the truce continue and not stop' so that we could have avoided what happened," he said in Cairo.

Al-Akhbar (Lebanon), Nimr Hammad, an advisor to Mahmoud Abbas, said: "The one responsible for the massacres is Hamas, and not the Zionist entity, which in its own view reacted to the firing of Palestinian missiles. Hamas needs to stop treating the blood of Palestinians lightly. They should not give the Israelis a pretext." He called upon the leaders of Hamas to stop carrying out "operations which reflect recklessness, such as the firing of missiles."

Press TV (Iran) Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit on Saturday blamed Hamas for provoking Israel into attacking the strip. "Egypt warned for a long time, and someone who ignores warnings is responsible for the outcome," said Gheit.

[reality check]

So you gather a bunch of headlines from predictable sources who are either Hamas's direct competition for power (Abbas), or unabashed apologists (the Germans) and those other countries who have tied their policies - economic and otherwise - to those of the US, Britain, or the EU.... Egypt, well, I'm not sure what's going on there.

Why don't you gather a few headlines of the protests happening all over the place about this action?

The extreme oppression of these people breeds extreme responses - in any way they can respond, ie rockets, suicide and car bombs. If you think any of the above condemnations are anything other than politicking at its best, you are mistaken. I'd like to think you're smarter than that.

[reality check]

Hundreds in London Israeli embassy protests


Hundreds of people today returned to the Israeli Embassy to protest at the country's bombardment of opponents in Gaza.

The crowd outside the Embassy in Kensington, central London, chanted slogans in support of Palestine from behind heavy metal barriers, facing a line of around 30 police officers while a police helicopter hovered overhead.

Yesterday's protest outside the Embassy saw seven people arrested for public order offences, including assaulting police officers, during angry clashes.

The atmosphere this afternoon was calmer, with protestors who attended yesterday noting that their numbers were slightly less - adding that people were now focusing on the rally in Trafalgar Square on Saturday.

For Lindsey German, the national convenor for the Stop The War Coalition, today was the third time she had joined protestors outside the Embassy.

"I feel that what is happening in Gaza is complete barbarism," she said.

"The Israeli government has obviously been planning it for a very long time.

"I think what they are imposing on the people of Gaza is collective punishment."

She said of the reaction from the international community: "I imagine 300 people (dead) in Israel or this country - it wouldn't be a bit of diplomacy going on. There would be condemnation, sanctions and so on.

"That's why we are here today.

"We want the end of the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank and we want the end of the blockade of Gaza."

Kevin Ovenden, 40, was also protesting outside the Embassy for the third day.

He said: "The reason that I am here along with everybody else is to try and draw as much attention as possible in Britain to the crime that Israel is committing in Gaza and also the complicity of the British Government which has consistently sided with Israel."

Mr Ovenden, from Tower Hamlets in east London, who is parliamentary assistant to George Galloway MP and has family in Iran, said he had noticed a "sea change" in the British public's attitude.

"Many people who didn't understand the issue or didn't need to care are now expressing deep anger at what is happening to the people of Gaza and demanding that Israel stop."

He said that among those arrested yesterday was a young man whose keyring in the shape of Palestine was confiscated as, he was told, it was "like a dagger".

A 20-year-old local government worker also from Tower Hamlets, who did not wish to give his name, said: "When people like George Bush and Condoleezza Rice think it's okay to keep their mouths shut at a time like this it's up to us, the public, to make our voices known.

"The Palestinians don't have a voice. The only voices that are heard are those coming from the corridors of power, Downing Street and the White House.

"It's obvious what needs to happen - the bombardment of the Palestinians needs to stop."

Today is the fourth day of Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip, which have killed more than 350 Palestinians and left another 1,400 wounded by the end of yesterday.

[morrow]

I was responding to the oft repeated axiom in this thread that it is only the U.S. and U.K. that understand Israel's response.

We used to hear, "the Jewish settlements in Gaza are the cause of the problem. We must demand that Israel abandon these colonies"

We also heard that it was injust that 8000 Jews were occupying 25% of Gaza.

And do you know what? That was true. So the Israeli army forcibly removed the Jewish settlers under orders of the "war monger" Ariel Sharon.

They left state-of-the-art operational greenhouses and other infrastructure which were immediately destroyed.

In 2005 Gaza became the first Palestinian territory to have self-rule. But instead of building roads or new schools or other amenities to improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians, the leaders built tunnels to smuggle weapons and turned university science labs into bomb making facilities.

I don't blame the Palestinian people, I am sure most of them would live in peace with Israel and go about their lives raising their children and working to improve their own lives, like all people. I blame their corrupt leaders who are less interested in creating a Palestinian state than they are destroying the Jewish state.

The reason is obvious, and this is true throughout the Arab world. As long as the leaders have Israel to blame, they can deflect criticism away from from their own corrupt leadership. (Arafat's $2 billion Swiss bank account is just one example). Totalitarian governments always need a scapegoat to explain why things are so bad.

Youb should read the column in today's Globe and Mail, "Israel is the opium of the people, and other Arab taboos" by MONA ELTAHAWY, a columnist for Egypt's Al Masry Al Youm and Qatar's Al Arab for greater insight on this.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... mment/home

Israel is a tiny country - smaller than Vancouver Island - with no oil. Yet, for all its many flaws, they are a modern innovative society and are leaders in arts, science and technology. Why is their GDP 10 times that of their Arab neighbours?

The Jews are not any smarter than the Arabs. If not for the corrupt monarchies, plutocracies and other forms of dictatorships that rule them, the Arab countries could and should be world leaders.

This must happen and it must happen soon. The conflict with Israel cannot continue to be an excuse for not engaging in development and progress for the betterment of their societies.

I'm not saying that Israel is blameless or that Palestinians do not have legitimate grievances, but grievances can be solved. But not until you get past the culture of victimhood, cultivated by leaders who would prefer to perpetuate the hardships of their citizens.

There are ample grievances on both sides. (There were more Jewish were refugees from Arab countries than there were Palestinian refugees from Israel.) But dwelling on 60 year old grievances does not serve anyone's cause.

One last point, because I know someone will jump in here. It's true that in the past few years Gaza has been limited by economic boycotts imposed by Israel but that is because rockets and mortars stated right after the Israeli evacuation. If only the abandonment of Jewish settlement were not met with violence but rather with some small gesture of good will maybe we would have seen an escalation of peace, not war.

And yes, I know that Israel still has settlements in the West Bank (WB), but that is not what HAMAS is fighting about. The majority of Israelis are ready to dismantle those settlements too. Although after suffering through years of rocket attacks after leaving Gaza, the appetite for withdrawal has waned a tad.

Interesting that the rockets and mortars are not coming from the WB, where there are settlements. They come from unoccupied Gaza. Why? Maybe because Gaza is ruled by a fanatical extremist group and the WB is ruled by a more moderate faction. That just proves my point that it is not so much the conditions, but the leadership that fuels this conflict.

Salem Shalom

[Dex]

Illegal Israeli settlement construction continues to this day in the West Bank; in violation of international law and the Bush Administration's orders. The world must press Israel to dismantle the settlements and go back to 1967 borders. We can point fingers at who's fault it was for this battle and the next but the fact remains there is military occupation and illegal settlements which displace the Palestinian people and prevent them from creating their own country. 40 years of occupation, displacement, oppression, etc, creates what we see today. Write your MP today and demand your government to publicly pressure Israel to stop all illegal settlement construction and eventual asap retreat to 1967 borders.

P.S.
And lets bury Sharon and Arafat together in one grave for their contributions to this injustice!!!!!

[sky's the limit]

Morrow,

Good post, I hope to have time to respond in kind later - extreme amounts of baking await at a neighbour's however...

stl

[Siddley Hawker]

Good post morrow. You have, I think, come as close to the truth as anything I have seen written anywhere.

[sky's the limit]

Good post morrow. You have, I think, come as close to the truth as anything I have seen written anywhere.

Truth.

Interesting word in all this. As I recently discovered on the streets of Afghanistan, the "truth" is seldom what we read, watch, or listen to on CBC Radio, or the BBC World Service, let alone most American "news" outlets. What I discovered there about truth applies directly to the abomination that is the Middle East Peace Process.

Morrow,

While much of what you write can be taken at first glance as "truths," such as:

So the Israeli army forcibly removed the Jewish settlers under orders of the "war monger" Ariel Sharon.

and

In 2005 Gaza became the first Palestinian territory to have self-rule. But instead of building roads or new schools or other amenities to improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians, the leaders built tunnels to smuggle weapons and turned university science labs into bomb making facilities.

and

As long as the leaders have Israel to blame, they can deflect criticism away from from their own corrupt leadership. (Arafat's $2 billion Swiss bank account is just one example). Totalitarian governments always need a scapegoat to explain why things are so bad.


It is the why behind these statements and other de-facto truths that need to be addressed.

There is a long and messy history that precedes these statements, one that certainly can find fault in the leadership of both sides, but to assume the sides in this issue are deserving of equal portions of responsibility and blame is to oversimplify, and ignore the many little publicized and quickly forgotten facts of the matter. I think we've all had enough of dates, times, places, and numbers in this thread so far, so it is back to the "why."

Long before Israel was in existence, or even a thought on the horizon, the Arab population on this region was being persecuted, exploited, and marginalized by colonial nations, mainly Great Britain, and of course the Turks, Germans, and later the Americans. This area is a vitally important one now, as it has been for several thousand years. It has been the stated and subscribed policy of the above listed nations to ensure Arab and Islamic marginalization (there are reams of books detailing these policies), and the very creation of these States, their borders, and the division of people caused by these creations has left a brutal hangover within these populations.

When the British drew the lines in the sand, they did so in concert with other stake holders, none of them Arab or Islamic. They did so to ensure rights to resources ranging from oil in Iran and Iraq, to the Suez Canal which has its own inauspicious history. Again, you can read as much as you wish on the topic, but suffice it to say, none of it was for the benefit of the local populations.

I have been fortunate enough to travel, live, and work in a number of nations whose history is a colonial one. In many of these places it is still a prominent feature of the national definition, and they struggle to emerge from this shadow to this day. Some have been more successful than others, and you can look at examples from India to the Congo, Jamaica to Jerusalem and its surrounding area.

To state that "leadership" is the problem is only partially accurate, as there are some very intentional, and very deep rooted reasons why the "leadership" is the problem. Many of those issues can be traced back directly to Western European and American involvement - and that, all before Israel came into existence.

As we are finding out rather bluntly, Democracy and economic systems cannot be imposed, installed, or created overnight. Again, Afghanistan is a wonderful example of this failure in policy, as each of these systems is organic in nature, and cannot be exported. So, is it any wonder the Palestinians have issues with Governance? Of course not. Couple that with the fact that Israel's behavior in this so-called "peace process" has been nothing short of appalling since the beginning, and you have some very polarized, very inexperienced (bureaucratically), and very angry people.

Everything from the language used in these peace settlements, to the press reporting of them, to the flagrant violation of UN resolutions and international law by Israel, has lead the Palestinians to completely and utterly disbelieve anything that comes from the mouths of American, British, or Israeli politicians. The oppressive occupation of a people for decades now leaves a mark. That mark may as you say, be visible as irrational behavior, faulty leadership, so-called "extremism" (not even sure what that word is supposed to mean anymore), or violence, but you have to take it in context. The suffering, oppression, and misrepresentation has gone on for so long now, it's a generational mindset.

Arafat started out with the best intentions, but he was lead down the path by the Americans and the Israeli leadership so many times, then left standing at the alter with nothing to show for it. Of course he was ineffective in the later years, we ensured he was. We ensured he was a destabilizing figure among the Palestinians themselves - that allowed continued Israeli occupation and colonization through "settlements," some of which have subsequently been removed as you said.

Israel holds ALL the cards in this brutal game.

It has held these cards since the 1950's, and it is not about to change anytime soon unless it is held accountable to international laws, UN resolutions, and something close to ethical behavior. The horrors inflicted on the Palestinians, the Lebanese, and others cannot continue to be backed by the most powerful nations on Earth if we want this to stop. Just put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian old enough to remember the Oslo Accords, whose family has existed under occupation since 1967, and who sees an endless series of American Presidents backing Israel at every turn. Imagine how you would view a "peace process" or settlement brokered by those same people? Particularly, as you pointed out, when your own "government" cannot be trusted to act in your own best interests, and you haven't held a job because there are none? It simply can't work, as we are seeing.

I'm not saying that Israel is blameless or that Palestinians do not have legitimate grievances, but grievances can be solved. But not until you get past the culture of victimhood, cultivated by leaders who would prefer to perpetuate the hardships of their citizens.


Fist off, "not saying that Israel is blameless," does almost no justice to the the almost unbelievable wrongs inflicted on the Palestinians for decades now. The culture of "victimhood", which is firmly established in the Psyche of both parties has one rather major distinction - the people of Israel have not suffered the oppression of occupation, the loss of countless thousands of their citizens, the ruin of its infrastructure and economy, or the overcrowded and extreme poverty that Palestinians live with on a daily basis. The treatment of these people by the Israeli government can be classed as brutal by any reasonable measure. To imply the suffering or blame is proportional is simply to ignore the facts of the situation. That said, I am not implying the reverse, as many on here seem to do, and that is to say Israel has not suffered, lived in fear, or borne casualties. As they have, and will continue to do so, only at a vastly advantageous exchange rate.

The efforts of this so-called "peace process" are almost laughable. The fact that Tony Blair of all people is not the Middle East Peace Envoy would have me rolling on the floor in laughter, were the situation not so dire for so many. So while much of what you state above is correct today, you must dig much, much, deeper into the "why" of the situation, and understand how incredibly biased the world leaders are towards Israel, and how incredibly powerful the press is in this bias. Language is a hugely important factor in all this - has been from the start, whether you're reading a newspaper, or the Oslo Accords. And none of it favours the Palestinians. These people have been marginalized by us, the Israelis, and as you point out, many other Arab nations.

Why was Israel created in the first place? Because none of us would open our borders to the worlds Jewish population on a for immigration on mass scale in the 1940's. Why are the Palestinians so brutalized now? Because other Arab nations won't open their doors to them either. What a world we live in....

A few small, ineffective rockets, is certianly no justification for this massive military response, as there was no justification for the invasion of Lebanon two years ago. Yet we allow it. No, we actually encourage it, either through our Canadian fence sitting, or the outright "green light" given by successive American administrations. Israel can no longer be allowed to operate outside the fold, or be given special reprieve from consequences for breaking international law, or ignoring UN resolutions. Unfortunately their actions will only serve to further entrench both sides in this conflict. Israel does not want peace, as that would almost certainly mean a two State solution, and that mean giving something up while empowering the Palestinians.

You want the Palestinians to start behaving more rationally, to reduce the influence of groups like Hamas? Then lets give them something to be hopeful about, because we sure haven't done that in a very long time.

stl

[bob sacamano]

The agreements on borders that STL mentions are the sykes-picot agreement, where after the fall of the ottoman empire, the french and british decided they will create new nations, draw new borders, and slice up the pie for their sharing. What ended up happening is them drawing borders to fit their needs, instead of creating countries where people have things in common and will actually get along. The british ended up promising everything to everyone, in other words, played them all. They promised the house of saud, the islamic wahabi leaders of what is now known saudi arabia (named after the saud family). The gave the hashemites their kingdom, what is now known as Jordan (first it was trans-jordan). They chipped off most of their lands, but for the hashemites, it was ok since they were the rulers. Same goes for iraq, egypt, syria, and Lebanon. Lebanon was the only country that emerged with a democratic political system, and it was a french protectorate, not a colony.

In palestine, the palestinians and israelies each got their own part of the country, divided up ofcourse, and jerusalem was to be an international capital.

With the israelies having the backing of the western world, the plan was to move the palestinians into Lebanon, and ship the Lebanese out to France and Canada (see kissinger plan). The kissinger plan ignited the 'civil' war in Lebanon back in the '70's, which got the palestinians into Lebanon (step 1 of the kissinger plan). Now you have 400,000 palestinians in Lebanon, a nation who's population is 3.5 million.

israel will never allow those refugees to return to palestine, and the Lebanese people will never accept to naturalize 400,000 palestinians.

It's natural for a refugee to have a right to return to their land. Don't you agree?

It is now illegal and impossible for a palestinian refugee to return to their homeland in occupied palestine. Their towns and villages are now erased, and now house new israeli settlements.

If you are jewish, and have never set foot in the middle east, had no one in your family ever live there or even visit, you may, apply, and be granted israeli citizenship and immediately move and live there.

Is that just?

Do you see why the palestinians are this way? They live in refugee camps inside their own country. Foreigners have played the god card, and have been occupying their land by force, those are the religious extremists. Those are the terrorists.

Angry bearded men in palestine did not get parachuted in there from hell. They live in hell. The western world has created this problem.

Killing civilians is an act of terrorism, no matter which side it comes from. Whether it comes from a suicide bomber, or an american paid for, israeli flown f-16.

what's happening is ethnic clensing, it started when israel was created, and is continuing as we speak.

[morrow]

The agreements on borders that STL mentions are the sykes-picot agreement, where after the fall of the ottoman empire, the french and british decided they will create new nations, draw new borders, and slice up the pie for their sharing. What ended up happening is them drawing borders to fit their needs, instead of creating countries where people have things in common and will actually get along. The british ended up promising everything to everyone, in other words, played them all. They promised the house of saud, the islamic wahabi leaders of what is now known saudi arabia (named after the saud family). The gave the hashemites their kingdom, what is now known as Jordan (first it was trans-jordan). They chipped off most of their lands, but for the hashemites, it was ok since they were the rulers. Same goes for iraq, egypt, syria, and Lebanon. Lebanon was the only country that emerged with a democratic political system, and it was a french protectorate, not a colony.

You got most of that right, except it was not the Sykes-Picot agreement that created all those states. Sykes-Picot came later but that's a minor detail.

With the israelies having the backing of the western world, the plan was to move the palestinians into Lebanon, and ship the Lebanese out to France and Canada (see kissinger plan). The kissinger plan ignited the 'civil' war in Lebanon back in the '70's, which got the palestinians into Lebanon (step 1 of the kissinger plan). Now you have 400,000 palestinians in Lebanon, a nation who's population is 3.5 million.

In the seventies, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians ended up in Lebanon after King Hussein expelled the P.L.O. from Jordan. His troops also killed more Palestinians in one month (Black September 1970) than Israel has in 60 years but we forget about that old grievance.

If you are jewish, and have never set foot in the middle east, had no one in your family ever live there or even visit, you may, apply, and be granted israeli citizenship and immediately move and live there.

After being expelled from, or denied entry to, countless countries over centuries Israel is one country that will never turn away a Jew. Even if he or she was born in Ethiopia, Iraq or the U.S.

Many countries have similar laws that grant citizenship to people with anscestral ties to that country.

Nationality goes beyond the place of birth. Arafat was born in Cairo but no one would deny his right to claim Palestinian citizenship.

Several thousands Jews have been born in the West Bank. Do they have a greater right to live there than a Palestinian born in Lebanon? Of course not.

There were more Jews forced out of Arab countries following the 48 war, than there were Palestinians who were expelled or fled Israel. Many of whose families in Iraq and Egypt had lived there for over 2000 years. Can they go back? No. Should they be allowed? I would tell them to get over it, there are millions of refugees who can't return to their homeland. It's time the Palestinians got over this too. The Palestinians need a state to exercise their sovereignty and fulfill their national aspirations, but to return en masse to what is Israel can't work and does not serve the cause of peace and reconciliation.

Is that just?

It corrects an injustice the way affirmative action corrects an historical injustice.

Do you see why the palestinians are this way? They live in refugee camps inside their own country.

Of course I do. The Palestinians have suffered for too long. There is more than enough blame to go around for that and it does not lie solely with the "western world" Tha Arab states have a big stake in that too, but I will leave that for another post (maybe).

But the solution to the Palestinian plight cannot be the elimination of Israel. That's my view, but you may differ.

what's happening is ethnic clensing, it started when israel was created, and is continuing as we speak.

In 1948, some 700,000 Palestinians fled or were forcibly expelled by Israel. That is an historical fact that Israeli historians acknowledge. About 180,000 Arabs stayed in Israel. Today they number 1.3 million Israeli Arab citizen of Israel.

Now Bob, Israel may be inept at certain things but "ethnically cleansing" 180,000 to 1.3 million is pretty bad ethnic cleansing.

Such terms as "ethnically cleansing" are part of the sloganeering and overblown rhetoric of which both sides are guilty of. Using such slogans does not serve the discussion or aid in the cause of peace, and that's what we should be concerned about.

Salem Shalom

[habit]

So you gather a bunch of headlines from predictable sources who are either Hamas's direct competition for power (Abbas), or unabashed apologists (the Germans) and those other countries who have tied their policies - economic and otherwise - to those of the US, Britain, or the EU.... Egypt, well, I'm not sure what's going on there.

Why don't you gather a few headlines of the protests happening all over the place about this action?

The extreme oppression of these people breeds extreme responses - in any way they can respond, ie rockets, suicide and car bombs. If you think any of the above condemnations are anything other than politicking at its best, you are mistaken. I'd like to think you're smarter than that.

Are you for real? Protests!!! You uninformed __________ , so you take these protests over the comments of WORLD LEADERS these protesters are mostly brainwashed from day one to hate the west, these people are undeducated as you seem to be so they blame all their problems on Israel and the USA,protests against Israel and the USA happen everyday in the middle east no matter what the news of the day, there is so much misinformation and falsehoods in your comments I do not have time or desire to correct your info, but the fact you seem to have sympathy for the terrorist group HAMAS really shows the kind of creature you are.