Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

[Lost in Saigon]

I'm not a pilot......i'm an AME-E who works on DH-8's for a living and i'm not going to speculate. My question is about the ATC tapes, though and how quick contact was lost.

The pilot is responding as normal to the controller and then literally 3 seconds later does not respond. Is it real time or have they cut out portions to save on time? If not, then this plane went from trouble-free to destroyed in less than 3 seconds. I don't really understand. Perhaps they were too busy to respond??

I don't know which tape you listened to, but that is not what I heard.

This link is real time: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kbuf/ ... -0300Z.mp3

At 16:02 Approach Control tells Colgan 3407 to contact the tower and she immediately responds. All is normal.

At 17:03 Approach Control repeatedly tries to contact Colgan 3407 again because they never did contact Buffalo Tower.

I assume the tower was also trying to contact them during this time.

[privateer]

Just watched the NTSB report on what they have heard so far from the cockpit voice recorder. Appears they reported a severe pitch down once flaps were selected to 15 degrees. Sounds like a tail stall. They also mentioned the pilot, I don't know if they mean the Captain?, had 3000hrs. We shall see what happens...

[ourkid2000]

I'm curious about this tail stall situation. Explain to me, if you would, how such a thing happens?

*edit, nevermind..........just found a great article*

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa11.pdf

[C-GOYR]

Wow, the explanation of a tail stall sounds pretty close to what the data recorder revealed the erratic pitch and roll that is. To what extent would icing on the tail bring down an A/C like the Q400?

Secondly, would an incident like this be reason to install or have install some form of de icing on the tail?

[L1011]

Wow, the explanation of a tail stall sounds pretty close to what the data recorder revealed the erratic pitch and roll that is. To what extent would icing on the tail bring down an A/C like the Q400?

Secondly, would an incident like this be reason to install or have install some form of de icing on the tail?

There are boots on the tail section on the Q400.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Secondly, would an incident like this be reason to install or have install some form of de icing on the tail?

You should make a mad "dash" to the patent office.......NOW!

[Lost in Saigon]

There are boots on the tail section on the Q400.

[co-joe]

Truly scary that they could seemingly depart controlled flight so rapidly. If I remember correctly, the NASA training video on tail plane icing also talks at great length about roll upset. If the two happened simultaneously that could lead to the 180, and if incorrectly recovered from could lead to the nearly vertical descent profile. Well see in a year or so when the report comes out.

Condolences to friends, co workers and family.

[ehbuddy]

NASA LEWIS has an excellent video on Tailplane Ice online. It features a Twin Otter in flight with both cockpit and tailplane views. The stall is very abrupt and actually gave the test crew a scare as they had not planned to go as far as they did in that test flight.

[Lost in Saigon]

NASA LEWIS has an excellent video on Tailplane Ice online. It features a Twin Otter in flight with both cockpit and tailplane views. The stall is very abrupt and actually gave the test crew a scare as they had not planned to go as far as they did in that test flight.

Is this the video? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0735779946

[MUSKEG]

I think it will be interesting to watch the media on this. Most will not know much about tail plane stall and won't have a clue that this aircraft ( actually most aircraft) have a downforce tailplane. You stall it and the nose goes down so fast that I would think you would be lifted right to the limit of your seat restraints. A very confusing situation to be certain for the crew. Be prepared for a lot of training regarding this situation.

[Tim]

taken from this cbc article: http://news.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/abc/wo ... lane-crash

According to a cockpit voice recorder recovered from the crash scene, the crew discussed "significant ice buildup, ice on the windshield and leading edge of the wings," shortly before the crash, said NTSB spokesman Steve Chealander. He said the flight data recorder revealed that the de-ice system was on the "on" positition.

The landing gear was placed down and 20 seconds later the flaps of the aircraft were positioned for landing, Chealander said. But within seconds of that command, the aircraft went through a "severe pitch and roll," he said.

The recording ends as the crew attempted to raise the gear and flaps, he said.

[mcconnell14]

British Airways flight 8456 landing gear collapsed on landing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rport.html

hmm..not a good day few days in aviation

[ehbuddy]

NASA LEWIS has an excellent video on Tailplane Ice online. It features a Twin Otter in flight with both cockpit and tailplane views. The stall is very abrupt and actually gave the test crew a scare as they had not planned to go as far as they did in that test flight.

Is this the video? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0735779946

Yes, this is the one. Thanks for posting it.

[_dwj_]

According to a cockpit voice recorder recovered from the crash scene, the crew discussed "significant ice buildup, ice on the windshield and leading edge of the wings," shortly before the crash, said NTSB spokesman Steve Chealander. He said the flight data recorder revealed that the de-ice system was on the "on" positition.

The landing gear was placed down and 20 seconds later the flaps of the aircraft were positioned for landing, Chealander said. But within seconds of that command, the aircraft went through a "severe pitch and roll," he said.

The recording ends as the crew attempted to raise the gear and flaps, he said.

Now we seem to have the facts we can stop speculating and start looking for answers.

Assuming the de-icing system was working, does this mean they were flying into conditions that the plane was not certified for (i.e. severe icing)? And when they saw the ice buildup on the leading edges should they not have declared an emergency and done a flapless landing? Is there any mandatory training for airline pilots about what to do when encountering severe icing or is it normal to just hit the deice button and hope for the best?

[AEROMONKEY]

So i went to chapters today and bought the new "Airports of the World" Magazine...its from the UK. The cover story on the magazine is...

"London City Airport...a Masterclass of Planning!" and the Picture underneath is of a BAE146 landing at the airport. While reading the magazine and watching CNN a Breaking news alert comes on and says ......."A British airways BaE146 has crashed at London City Airport! how weird is that!!

[Red Line]

how weird is that!!

Friday the 13th kind of weird.

[avcanada]

Very small world we live in

God speed

[ScudRunner]

I was very surprised to see the NTSB releasing information from the flight recorder this early, less than 24 hours after. Any Q400 pilot on here that could talk about the Ice detection systems on the plane?

[freakonature]

Lost in Saigon, Thank's for posting that video. I watched it three time's. Is this something that every pilot is watching for in these condition's? The NASA people seem to indicate it is a condition aircraft are often close to,without the crew being aware that it is about to happen. The Otter crew sure seemed caught off guard by the pitch over? Is this something that is done in sim training?

[officejet]

Now we seem to have the facts we can stop speculating and start looking for answers.

Assuming the de-icing system was working, does this mean they were flying into conditions that the plane was not certified for (i.e. severe icing)? And when they saw the ice buildup on the leading edges should they not have declared an emergency and done a flapless landing? Is there any mandatory training for airline pilots about what to do when encountering severe icing or is it normal to just hit the deice button and hope for the best?

Are you for real?

The smoke has hardly cleared and you're declaring case closed.

And then you start criticizing the actions of the crew.

I really should not be giving you credit by responding to your garbage.

This thread has been respectful up to this point and continues to be and I applaud those that have taken the time to make respectful comments and provide thoughtful insight. This weather will continue and we all will be flying into it. This is a wakeup to us all.

I really am disgusted by your ignorance. I know that can't be helped. Ignorance is what it is.

I won't start speculating what area of aviation you are in, but I'm assuming that you are involved in the industry seeing as you've contributed a few responses to this forum.

Please take this response seriously friend. You are completely out of line. Your accusations towards airline pilots that they "just push a button and hoping for the best" have no place here. I realize this is a public forum and everyone is entitled to say what they want.

I'm telling you that what you said is completely fkd.

Please go back to whatever world you exist in where icing conditions are something you read about.

If you want to comment on a recent crash where good people have lost their lives, think about what you are going to say very carefully before your fingers start typing. I know it's easy to hide behind a pseudonym and believe that what you say has no consequences...

But let's agree to show some dignity.

My prayers are with the families of those effected.

Truly a sad day.

Fly safe.

Officejet

[Lost in Saigon]

Lost in Saigon, Thank's for posting that video. I watched it three time's. Is this something that every pilot is watching for in these condition's? The NASA people seem to indicate it is a condition aircraft are often close to,without the crew being aware that it is about to happen. The Otter crew sure seemed caught off guard by the pitch over? Is this something that is done in sim training?

I never saw the video before today. I remember being told many years ago not to use too much flap in icing. Now it makes a lot more sense.

I don't think any operators teach this stuff. At least none that I have ever worked for.

[fogghorn]

According to a cockpit voice recorder recovered from the crash scene, the crew discussed "significant ice buildup, ice on the windshield and leading edge of the wings," shortly before the crash, said NTSB spokesman Steve Chealander. He said the flight data recorder revealed that the de-ice system was on the "on" positition.

The landing gear was placed down and 20 seconds later the flaps of the aircraft were positioned for landing, Chealander said. But within seconds of that command, the aircraft went through a "severe pitch and roll," he said.

The recording ends as the crew attempted to raise the gear and flaps, he said.

Now we seem to have the facts we can stop speculating and start looking for answers.

Assuming the de-icing system was working, does this mean they were flying into conditions that the plane was not certified for (i.e. severe icing)? And when they saw the ice buildup on the leading edges should they not have declared an emergency and done a flapless landing? Is there any mandatory training for airline pilots about what to do when encountering severe icing or is it normal to just hit the deice button and hope for the best?

Yeah, hit the deice button and hope for the best

[Nark]

I'm going to pass that video on to everyone I meet. Great find.



My thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of this accident.

[freakonature]

Is this video not common knowledge? It sure seems like good stuff to know.