Keystone blames Transport Canada.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:51 pm

Was that Cliff ( fanny ) that was explaining how things work to me a few posts back?

Cat

LH · Post by LH » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:12 pm

stallnfall ----- ohhhh, so it's the old "fly as good as me or hit the road Jack" routine. The Manitoba bush is filled with the wrecks of all kinds of those kinds of pilots....both VFR and IFR......and many of them were as good or better than Fanny may think he is.

stringbender · Post by **stringbender** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:10 pm

keystone likes to play pilot against pilot,if you turn down a trip then youll hear,well so and so can do it

LH · Post by LH » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:51 pm

stringbender -----that attitude didn't start nowadays and didn't start supposedly with Keystone. Long before the present owner was a twinkle in his dad's eye, that CRAP was going on. I realize fully that a guy's gotta get his experence some place and sometimes he gotta swallow his pride or push a tad, but there is a difference between "scratching your ass and tearing the hell out of it". At some point a pilot has to use the same backbone that connects his head to his ass. He wants to earn a buck while he's learning and improving his profession. He wants to be some place where he's working for and amongst pros that think along the same lines. What he doesn't need and doesn't want, is to be working for "Deliverance Airlines" or DownEast International for a bunch of "good old boys" who play the "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" game.. If that's all he can find then it's best he consider it all a mistake and find another trade or profession because the Arctic, Barren Lands, lakes, trees and bushes of Canada are absolutely loaded with a/c flown by other pilots whose luck finally ran out doing the EXACT same thing......allowing some s.o.b. to push and then push some more and then keep on pushing. There's one hell of a lot worse that can happen to a pilot then being "let go"/fired/screwed.

I came from a family that operated a large charter firm in the East from 1923 - 1959 and what they passed on to me about this business, I'll pass on here...."Son, if you are going to have a career in aviation, decide right now if you are going to be a f*cker or the f*ckee. Once you've made that decision, quit you bitchin' and moaning and live with it because YOU made the choice and don't "cop-out" and blame that decision on others". Whatever did or did not happen at Skyward, one thing is for sure......that company and others like them are the SUM TOTAL of the efforts of their employees because without them and their kind, the company doesn't exist. If the attitude you stated, is the attitude of the present ownership, then it would appear that they too, are on a sharp learning curve themselves in that regard. The ownership may or may not be great IFR pilots, if what you stated occurs, but it would appear that they are lacking greatly in the skills needed to manage personnel, never mind a business entity.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:33 am

Are these the total morons who flew a Be200 into Kaskatrama? If they are, their OC should be burnt to the stake!!!
Geeze Cat, if you're a scaredy cat, I can do that trip for you, you big baby! And you call yourself a "pilot"???? I mean, C'mon ya suck, that strip is at least 1500 feet long!! Even a "girl" could put a DC8 in there! Ya BABY!!!!

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:41 am

Might have been their 99 and the owner did that trip damaging the gear from what I remember.

north of 50 · Post by **north of 50** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:38 am

worked for an eastern operator on an island in the bay of fundy(can't say his name) initials of owner are K.S. and companies name (accrynym) is A.C. what an a**hole and pscycho. believe it or not, when i did my PPC, the inspector, mr. G.B. actually sat me down, and his words were, and i quote,"i know how your boss operates and i hope you won't fly to the same standards as him, he likes to push both the wx and his employee(s). be careful."

DragEraser · Post by **DragEraser** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:34 am

Ya, it was the 200 a few times, in 2000. After all, it is kinda 3500'.

2R · Post by 2R » Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Thank you for your rude pm fanny.I must of hit a nerve. The truth hurts and sometimes you might not like it but there it is.The points made by you never appeared in any report I saw or in the winnipeg press or even the general schuttle butt at cywg.
Aviation can be unforgiving.
And stringbender where did you get your insight into the first crash as that information does not seem to be in the Public domain.
Please share that so we can all learn.

Brew · Post by **Brew** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:14 am

Off topic but...How is the company doing at the moment? Does anyone know if they still have lots of work or are their planes sitting around doing nothing? I mean has this case, since being brought back in the public's eye, recently impacted their business....

2R · Post by 2R » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:34 am

Any court dates yet ???

FREEFALL · Post by **FREEFALL** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:35 am

Don`t know a thing about court dates, but they are flying.

virga · Post by **virga** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:32 pm

while I do have a problem with placing too much blame on the company when a pilot doesn't take enough fuel for a trip, there are some serious safety issues at keystone that stem from bad company culture as fostered by Cliff (or fanny, as he likes to be called now). Very little if anything has been done to change that since the accidents and its the reason why my "friend" left as soon as possible and is now in court with them.

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:52 pm

the boss at keystone has personally done many flights for a pilot that did not feel confident enough to go. they are not dummies...

If - a big if - you've "changed" your ways, I think Charlie in Kaska is going to be pretty pissed off. I've been stuck overnight in Akwateen (offstrip some 4 miles NW, sleeping in the back) and repo'd @ 100 feet over to Kaska to wait the fog out. Now here comes "the boss" and is son....a few attempts and they pop out the bottom and flare, coming to a rest sideways at the east end. Unloads and loads up those yanks and off they go.

I didnt get out until the next afternoon.

A cheap suit and a shave can make any criminal look like a saint.

Isn't fanny the Mrs???

2R · Post by 2R » Wed May 31, 2006 2:46 pm

Any court dates yet????

clearmyside · Post by **clearmyside** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:15 pm

Who is to blame for the Keystone accident?

The Pilot? Most Certainly!!!!

The company? Yes, most certainly!!!! for entertaining and encouraging things like below legal fuel and over gross operations.

Transport Canada? I am not sure you can blame for a specific incident, however I know from personal experience that only if you a blind (or maybe bribed) will you not see what is going on. I believe Keystone's track record should have been enough to put a very tight leash on the company (at the very least). So in the grand scheme of things can you blame Transport Canada? YES. There is a more companies out there doing similar things (I don't want to name anyone) and Transport is closing their eyes, because it means money.

In a perfect world Transport would actually enforce and instill a culture of equal treatment and rules for everyone. CARS are great, but if even one TC inspectors interpret them differently than the next, what good is it?

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Wed May 31, 2006 10:27 pm

But in the real world, TC invents SMS so they can claim to be doing something to enhance safety while in reality just creating more paperwork.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:57 am

Cat Driver wrote:Doc.....

Here is the part in fannys post ( if true ) that I find most disturbing and most damaging to the reputation of the management of said company.

" the boss at keystone has personally done many flights for a pilot that did not feel confident "

When any boss is known to over ride the decision of no go by a pilot on his payroll who has been licensed by and PPC certified by the regulator to make these decisions it is not " preceived " pressure, it is proof that said boss pressures his crews.... in my opinion at least.

The root problem we have in aviation is should a pilot request help from the regulator in issues such as these what would the result be for the pilot?

Cat

Sorry Cat but that's horseshit.

Anyway all PPC'd pilots are not of equal caliber. Rides are normally done in clear weather and do nothing to test confidence down to minimums in the real world.If an owner is more experienced with the aircraft and there is a customer who needs to get somewhere however the line pilot on duty is a little on the green side with a particular aircraft then why cancel the trip when the owner has the experience to get the job done. Occasionally we get calls to go into 2500 ft strips with my navajo under less than ideal conditions. If a pilot does not feel comfortable going I will send a more experienced guy. Anyone who knows my company knows I got a guy with over 10000 hrs in ho's. If he feels confident then why wouldn't I send him. I wouldn't do it my self because my line pilots have more experience then I do so I'll freely admit If they can't do it I probably can't either

I'm no hero

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:01 am

clearmyside wrote:Who is to blame for the Keystone accident?

The Pilot? Most Certainly!!!!

The company? Yes, most certainly!!!! for entertaining and encouraging things like below legal fuel and over gross operations.

Transport Canada? I am not sure you can blame for a specific incident, however I know from personal experience that only if you a blind (or maybe bribed) will you not see what is going on. I believe Keystone's track record should have been enough to put a very tight leash on the company (at the very least). So in the grand scheme of things can you blame Transport Canada? YES. There is a more companies out there doing similar things (I don't want to name anyone) and Transport is closing their eyes, because it means money.

In a perfect world Transport would actually enforce and instill a culture of equal treatment and rules for everyone. CARS are great, but if even one TC inspectors interpret them differently than the next, what good is it?

I think you hit the mark. We have a tendency to look for only one cause or party to blame. In this case, I think there is shared responsibility to be had between all the parties. Who gets a bigger part of that blame, I can't say, I don't know enough about any of this. However I am troubled at reading that so many holes in so many different supposed safety nets managed to line up and allow something like this to occur. What would be even more disturbing is that nothing would be done to prevent it from happening again.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:22 am

clunckdriver wrote: So lets drag TC into court, maybe they will get to clean up their act if given enough bad press.

They won't clean up their act but they will become super anal toward everyone not just the bad guys. That will mean huge fines for every operator in the country. We all know the regs are written so a violation can always be found. TC will feel it's being pushed into a corner and will have to do something just to cover their ass.

rd1331 · Post by **rd1331** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:25 am

I'd love to be anyone who flew before this accident on a keystone airplane. To prove that they should have been shut down they will have to put out evidence of the sort. By doing so they will prove that they opporated illegally and where putting ever persons life who flew on there aircraft in danger during the time in which transport should have shut them down, and knowingly. Even with a Corporation setup of a company the directors/owners can be held liable for any know negligence. Can we see where this is going? Even without an accident/incident you can be held liable for knowly putting someones life in danger without anything actually happening. So everyone get ready for a nice big class action suit against them from all the people who flew with them during this stage of negligence. I sure wish i did. $$$$$$

They are just digging themselves a very big whole.

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:24 pm

I just love the radio ads for Keystone about how they're the safest airline around because of the newly implemented SMS. Ha! If the public only knew the garbage operation it really is. Hell, if only TC really knew!

wanpaku · Post by **wanpaku** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:53 am

Hey ei-ei-"Imsofullofshit"-ohhhhh. How would you know? Educate us. I'm not defending the pilot or Keystone, but, really, how would you know what kind of operation it is? Did you actually work there? Do you know what it is like to deal with the family (owners) on a daily basis? They are, as a matter of fact, very good people.

rd1331-I can't even start to read your post. I have a great read for you, its' called "English for dummies." Junior Highschool diploma is a bitch, I know, but keep at it. Set a goal and work toward it everyday, even if it takes you 13 years to git-er-dun!!!!

Dust Devil says it best so far - "...all PPC'd pilots are not of equal caliber. Rides are normally done in clear weather and do nothing to test confidence down to minimums in the real world.If an owner is more experienced with the aircraft and there is a customer who needs to get somewhere however the line pilot on duty is a little on the green side with a particular aircraft then why cancel the trip when the owner has the experience to get the job done. Occasionally we get calls to go into 2500 ft strips with my navajo under less than ideal conditions. If a pilot does not feel comfortable going I will send a more experienced guy. Anyone who knows my company knows I got a guy with over 10000 hrs in ho's. If he feels confident then why wouldn't I send him." ---EXACTLY

98% of the pseudo-pilots on this forum have no idea what they are bitching about. You don't know Keystone other than what you read here. If any company was half as bad as you claim Keystone is, do you honestly think they would be around today, thriving as they have been recently. I don't think so. They would have been crucified long ago. TC has shut down a lot of companies, so how is it that Keystone is one of the rare ones to recover?

I know this is a "forum" for opinion, but when you start making false claims with the the intent to tarnish someones name and lively-hood, you need to keep your comments to yourself. You know how pilots are taught early on, not to avoid the media after an accident or incident, well, it is to prevent exactly what is going on, on this forum.

Anyway, I gotta go to my flying job now while the rest of you bitter SOBs continue sitting in front of your computers, hiding from the real world.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:20 am

wanpaku wrote

98% of the pseudo-pilots on this forum have no idea what they are bitching about. You don't know Keystone other than what you read here

I was not going to get involved with this thread but your comment touched a nerve. I have witnessed two incidents with Keystone pilots in the last few months that were unsafe, stupid things done by the pilots. Pilots fault? Maybe. Maybe company training, management, supervision, or a desire just to hire PPC'd pilots. In one instance a pilot did not do a proper walkaround, failed to notice an unsecure outboard fuel cap, took off, and then when he became aware of it, continued on. He was so rattled about this that when he finally did land he stopped using his checklist and taxied up to the ramp with his flaps still extended.

I am not a big fan of TC but including them in any law suit where the primary cause was fuel starvation is just plain wrong, and the rest of us in the industry will pay the price.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:23 am

Wanpaku, congratulations on attaining, by far, the holiest of 'holier than thou' status. Some kind of record even for this site. Do you need an airplane, or does God just swing by and pick you up?