Air Canada parking 155 aircraft!!

[rudder]

ALPA can knock on the door all it wants. We're not buying anything.

Your problem will not be that ALPA keeps knocking on the door. Your problem will be when ALPA stops knocking.

[tonysoprano]

Ok.

[mattedfred]

But I get the impression you are not aware of what happened at the latest Teplitski hearing over the 16th 705.

Any trust that was developing between ALPA/ACPA trashed.

ACPA fought with ALPA over 25 seats?

[RFN]

We've had this discussion many times, and yet we always seem so ready to take shots at eachother like a bunch of, well, like a bunch of pilots.

I am a Jazz pilot. I wear an Air Canada uniform, fly Air Canada passengers on Air Canada routes and fly airplanes that used to have an Air Canada paint job. I don't think I am entitled to a job at Air Canada. I do think that if I am not suitable for Air Canada, then it comes across as a bit ironic. I do feel that at least in terms of experience, having flown into many of the same challenging airports as the domestic Air Canada fleet, I am more qualified than an "OTS" pilot.

If ACPA told you guys that it was us that walked from GS, then that's strange, because we were told it happened the other way around. If they told you there was seniority integration issues, that's BS. Nobody here thought that date of hire was realistic, nobody.

Air Canada pays a pretty penny for it's CPA with Jazz, and every mile Jazz flies, even with the CPA, saves Air Canada money. I don't know how much exactly; my opinion is underinformed. If you want Air Canada to slash the CPA, and use a U.S. Regional for the transborder stuff, then all that will do is undercut you even more. C.R. is going to laugh his ass off when he reads that Air Canada's employees blame (partially) Jazz for charging too much. He would LOVE to use 20k per year F/Os to steal your flying.

I don't want to steal airplanes from Air Canada's pilots. I want to enjoy a reasonable career, free from being manipulated by 2 unions, 2 companies, 1 economy, 1 idiot at the Globe and Mail, and 1 girlfriend.

Bottom line is that we should stop bashing eachother, because that's pretty damn rich considering the year we're in.

Of course it'll keep happening, so have at er I guess.

[jazzbeat]

Good post RFN,

My 2 cents on global solution:

1- Need new blood at the top of ALPA
2- Need new blood at the top of ACPA

note 1: do you really think that the truth about what's happening at the table comes down to regular line pilots... come on!!!...

Pretty funny when you look at it:

at ACPA people are mad at their leaders because they choked at the last negots...(we had a gun to our head)... but they're sending the same group again for the next round of negots...!!!

at ALPA people are mad because everything seems to be a secret and then all you know is that they voted for you.....but yet we re-elect the same bunch...

Conclusion:

The Union Model is broken

[WF9F]

RFN you wrote,
"I am more qualified than an "OTS" pilot."
Some of those OTS pilots have backgrounds from Military to Corporate to other Major airlines that IMO trump your Timmins flights and taliking to STOC in YYZ.
Give me a break.

A lowly OTS pilot living the dream.

[mattedfred]

jazzbeat,

do you have a solution since you have come to a conclusion?

have you expressed your concerns to your LEC status rep?

have you volunteered for your union in hopes of changing the system from within?

[Brick Head]

But I get the impression you are not aware of what happened at the latest Teplitski hearing over the 16th 705.

Any trust that was developing between ALPA/ACPA trashed.

ACPA fought with ALPA over 25 seats?

Off the start. I have always been a proponent of working together for our collective benefit. The inability to do so drives me nuts.

Did ACPA and Jazz fight over 25 seats?

Version ala ACPA.

No not at all. The two sides worked together to come up with a common front for the arbitration. Our new found trust and all. They agreed to go to the arbitration under the agreement.

Got to the arbitration and one side, changed their position to match Jazz and AC. The other side was a little humiliated not having any pre warning at all.

As for needing a change at the top of ACPA. You have it right now. Well had it. It doesn't get much better. They were about 6 months into their mandate. A much younger MEC with way less baggage. They took a chance at an olive branch. Many were not happy they were doing so. They started small and got burned.

They won't be back for a 3rd degree burn.

I think these events are what is spawning some of the comments. I am also surprised that no one from the Jazz side seems to know it happened at all.

If you have a different version we are all ears.

[Brick Head]

Pretty funny when you look at it:

at ACPA people are mad at their leaders because they choked at the last negots...(we had a gun to our head)... but they're sending the same group again for the next round of negots...!!!

It is not the same people. We haven't hired professional negotiators to do the actual negotiating if that is what you are saying. We do however have a large contingent of outside expertise sitting behind right behind them this go around.

We are much better prepared.

[Ifly]

Hi Jaques

I interviewed with AC in 2006. At that time AC and Jazz were in the GS talks. If an applicant was accepted at AC from Jazz, AC was given full access to that employees' records at Jazz (without prior permission from the applicant). We were both wholly owned subsidiaries of ACE. I had done the same company medical at Air Canada's medical office in YYZ that a Air Canada pilot is put through upon being hired, just 8 months earlier in order to gain employment with Jazz. If AC had offered me a job, Jazz had the power to tell AC when they would let me come over.

On the operations side, I was flying the same people you fly from YYZ to CUN, from YTS to YYZ. I worked with the same ground handling staff both in the terminal and on the ramp as you do. And to top it all off, two of our senior managers, were executives on loan from AC. (Can you think of 2 other "seperate" companies in the world that have a relationship like this?)

Now I know that technically we were seperate entities. I'm not interested in getting into a common employer type arguement, that ship has obviously sailed. But at the time, it was hard to know where AC ended and Jazz began. All I knew as an individual applicant, was that there was a different set of rules for applicants from Jazz than OTS. True there were advantages, but overall, I think pilots applying to AC from Jazz look at the LOU that was established between our groups as more of a hinderance than a help.

I will admit, that my not worthy comment was a bit of pot stirring.

[jazzbeat]

Brickhead: you are probably right, or have better information. Even if I still think you would need a professional negociator. I hope you get the best out of it because ACPA usually set the standard...


Mattedfred:

My global solution:

The Air France way of doing things:

A National Park Brake festival...... untill there is respect for our profession

but I don't think we canadians have the balls to do it so let's continue the race to the bottom: send the embraers to Jazz, the dashes to georgian and so when my kids are old enough to make a career decision the aircrafts will all be registered in Panama with indonesians flying them for 1$/hour

we have bigger problems than ACPA vs ALPA,

Another example is Transat, in the last 20 years they became a great airline with descent working conditions...But now they have the Canjet threat. There is always somebody ready to do your job for half your salary.... for now they got 737s but what will they get in 5 years time...

You think it's normal to fly an Embraer for Dash wages... but would it be normal for Canjet to fly the 330 for their 737 wages...???

We will have to think about our profession a lot more than just a flow to AC if you ask me

[chatman]

Hi Jaques

I interviewed with AC in 2006. At that time AC and Jazz were in the GS talks. If an applicant was accepted at AC from Jazz, AC was given full access to that employees' records at Jazz (without prior permission from the applicant). We were both wholly owned subsidiaries of ACE. I had done the same company medical at Air Canada's medical office in YYZ that a Air Canada pilot is put through upon being hired, just 8 months earlier in order to gain employment with Jazz. If AC had offered me a job, Jazz had the power to tell AC when they would let me come over.

On the operations side, I was flying the same people you fly from YYZ to CUN, from YTS to YYZ. I worked with the same ground handling staff both in the terminal and on the ramp as you do. And to top it all off, two of our senior managers, were executives on loan from AC. (Can you think of 2 other "seperate" companies in the world that have a relationship like this?)

Now I know that technically we were seperate entities. I'm not interested in getting into a common employer type arguement, that ship has obviously sailed. But at the time, it was hard to know where AC ended and Jazz began. All I knew as an individual applicant, was that there was a different set of rules for applicants from Jazz than OTS. True there were advantages, but overall, I think pilots applying to AC from Jazz look at the LOU that was established between our groups as more of a hinderance than a help.

I will admit, that my not worthy comment was a bit of pot stirring.

2 other separate companies......Maybe ACM and newly formed AVEOS. Guys are retiring from Air Canada and then getting phone calls from Aveos for a job.

YWG hangar is hiring mechs under the Air Canada banner, which actually is now Aveos, same contract for now but no flight benefits.

[RFN]

WF9F:

In terms of experience, yes, I do believe that flying on the same routes flown by Air Canada is a better prep for becoming an Air Canada pilot than anything (outside of the Polaris) the military has to offer. I am not trashing the military; I was in it, and I have a deep respect for it. The military makes good pilots. Corporate flight departments make good corporate pilots. An airline makes good airline pilots.
Jazz flt ops does more than fly back and forth to YTS and "taliking to stoc".

Perhaps I should be more clear. There is nothing wrong with the quality of most of the OTS pilots hired at AC. Of course not.
Anyone who thinks that they are entitled to any job because of their background at Jazz, a corporate flight dept, the Forces, MedEvac or any other sector of aviation is arrogant. It's not up to me, but if it were, I would hire more from Jazz than I would from most other sectors, only because of the commonality of the type of flying that Jazz does with the domestic single aisle fleet at AC.

Plus, once you've worn the hat, it's worth about 4000hrs of experience

[anonymity]

edited

[RFN]

Anonymity:
The same thing happened to me.
I don't blame anyone for it, but it was frustrating.
Having said that, I will still be excited for that interview, albeit a few years late, if things turn around...

[Brick Head]

Brickhead: you are probably right, or have better information. Even if I still think you would need a professional negociator. I hope you get the best out of it because ACPA usually set the standard...

Well you are not alone with the opinion of professional negotiators. Believe me I was at a union meeting where the issue was beaten to death. For me the issue is the complexity of our collective agreement. How do you get someone completely up to speed on it in short order? Believe me the potential for disaster is huge. This cuts both ways though. The company and the union have been working on a paired down version.

I think you should look WJ to set the standard.

[invertedattitude]

Just a casual observer here, but I wanted to add something to those that seem to be misinformed.

In Canada at least, unless ACA has something special written, your pensions are protected if an outside company foreign or not decides to buy Air Canada.

Now what protection is the quesiton, if the pension is not protected inside the CA, then the buying companies only obligation would be to pay out what every employee has already paid in then roll up the plan.

[minimumsdecide]

Ah the same old same old Air Canada vs Jazz (regional pilots) battle This sounds like a 8-track player that is on repeat (ya an 8-track player, that is about how modern this topic is).

This dispute has about as much chance of a resolution as peace in the middle-east. I have a better understanding of that topic since I moved there a couple of years ago. Both struggles have similar patterns, must save face in battle, the only difference is in the middle-east it is about religion, and in Canada it is about ego's. The ego's of those at the tables.

Having left the disfuctional family (best thing I did in my career), I can view it from the outside and laugh and shake my head at how a bunch of pilots manged to let management lap-dog each other into a "dog eat dog" struggle. The only thing this manouver/battle has accomplished is to push the terms and conditions of the "ACE PILOT" family back about ten years.

It looks as if the piper (new AC management ) has come to play a tune, hopefully it is not the last stand.

If by some chance these groups actually got there sh*t together and formed a common voice, then the leaders of both groups should be nominated for a Noble Peace Prize

[tonysoprano]

Totally ignorant statement dude. You don't have a clue as to what this is all about and you probably didn't when you were oh so much a part of it. This is not about egos. This is not about management screwing anyone. This is all about two groups fighting for their quality of life and the money that's at stake. Very complicated and far beyond your comprehension or concern.

[minimumsdecide]

Totally ignorant statement dude. You don't have a clue as to what this is all about and you probably didn't when you were oh so much a part of it. This is not about egos. This is not about management screwing anyone. This is all about two groups fighting for their quality of life and the money that's at stake. Very complicated and far beyond your comprehension or concern.

Sorry Tony (bada bing bada boom) but sometimes the truth hurts.

This is about AC management screwing groups, it is their job to get the job done for the best price/agreement, no matter what the cost. Welcome to airline management 101. They have never demonstrated any different then divide and conquer. Talk to the ACPA guys about what the AC management types where throwing around during the regional strike, or during the CCAA process. They dodged a bullet (AC management) during the common employer hearing (even Milton thought the regional guys had won). The last thing the AC wanted was a common list, too many pilots to battle.

Montie had no love for Jazz and that was a fact! Maybe a good thing for Jazz he is gone, who knows.

As far as ego's not involved, whatever, did ALPA ever take an offer (from ACPA) to it's group to vote on??? Did ACPA tell it's members everything, probably not. AC management sat back and watched the show unfold knowing that with the history between the two groups (especially senior ones at ALPA and the AC 249ers) an agreement was as likely as "peace in the middle east".

The gambler (Mr. Rovinescu) will show his cards in the coming months for sure.

['effin hippie]

OK just back to the OP for a second.

Everyone in early on the thread says Jaques K is a f***wit, blah blah blah....
But getting rid of unprofitable activities isn't crazy, it's what you would expect of competent management.

Call a spade a spade, all union crap aside. The only strengths AC is riding on right now are its international service and Aeroplan.
Domestically, WJ is kicking AC to the curb, and Porter is steadily chewing away at the final bastion of domestic profitability in the YYZ-YOW-YUL triangle.

Aeroplan is an independent entity now. It has no reason to remain loyal to AC, and it has a strong incentive to find other partners, given AC's current shape. People at AC have been sneering at WJ since day 1, and wound up with quite a bit of egg on their faces. When WJ says they are international by 2013, I'd sit up and paying some f***ing attention.

Does anyone dispute that AC is losing money on some routes? Of course they are. And they should stop flying them. Complain as much as you want about the robber-barons at ACE and AC senior management, cry about the egregious incompetence and graft that has brought you to the brink, these laments may have much truth; but regardless of how you got here, AC has its back to a cash cliff, an unpopular brand and ferocious competition. Preventing the final failure of a proud institution is going to require that it stop losing money and focus on its remaining centers of profit. If stopping the unprofitable flying means parking 155 airplanes, then that is how many should be parked - you can say Jaques K just made a lucky guess. If it means parking 5, then park those and get on with sorting out the rest of the mess.

ef

(I hear the guy early on objecting to the associated costs of retraining, leases etc and certainly such factors need to be considered. But if the current structure is losing you money, which it clearly is, it has to change. Furthermore, after accusing JK of idiocy, have you done the math? Do you know what the relative costs of continuing an unprofitable route vs. shutting it down are? Do you know the details of AC's lease arrangements? Maybe nothing needs to get shut down, but just calling a guy an idiot and moving on to union politics doesn't look like very strong counter-argument to me.)

[disco]

How many companies in Canada were able to afford 2.8 billion in dividends over the last couple of years? Why is anyone buying into this crap from Kavafian and the Canadian media in general? Air Canada already has figured out how to be a money making machine. That is a LOT of CLAMS folks. Problem is, management likes handing them all out to shareholders all the time. Now we have to hear all of these ridiculous theories on how to save Air Canada etc. This place has brought in lots of money lately. The greedy ones keep running off with it. Let's keep focused on reality.

Disco

[CanadaEH]

OK just back to the OP for a second.

Everyone in early on the thread says Jaques K is a f***wit, blah blah blah....
But getting rid of unprofitable activities isn't crazy, it's what you would expect of competent management.

Call a spade a spade, all union crap aside. The only strengths AC is riding on right now are its international service and Aeroplan.
Domestically, WJ is kicking AC to the curb, and Porter is steadily chewing away at the final bastion of domestic profitability in the YYZ-YOW-YUL triangle.

Aeroplan is an independent entity now. It has no reason to remain loyal to AC, and it has a strong incentive to find other partners, given AC's current shape. People at AC have been sneering at WJ since day 1, and wound up with quite a bit of egg on their faces. When WJ says they are international by 2013, I'd sit up and paying some f***ing attention.

Does anyone dispute that AC is losing money on some routes? Of course they are. And they should stop flying them. Complain as much as you want about the robber-barons at ACE and AC senior management, cry about the egregious incompetence and graft that has brought you to the brink, these laments may have much truth; but regardless of how you got here, AC has its back to a cash cliff, an unpopular brand and ferocious competition. Preventing the final failure of a proud institution is going to require that it stop losing money and focus on its remaining centers of profit. If stopping the unprofitable flying means parking 155 airplanes, then that is how many should be parked - you can say Jaques K just made a lucky guess. If it means parking 5, then park those and get on with sorting out the rest of the mess.

Who cares about any of that when there are more important issues like union politics to deal with??

['effin hippie]

disco, that was a joke right?

ef

[disco]

hippie. What part of that would seem to be a joke?

They handed out a 2 BEEEELION dollar dividend and ACE was looking at winding another 800 million out. Real Canadian bucks. Were you not aware of this? Do you know a lot of Canadian business models that had that kind of cash on hand in the last couple of years? Does that sound like a profitability issue? It is a greedy, blatant, shell game.

Do you work for Westjet or Kavafian?