flying4dollars wrote: However, you may in fact be promoting this evolution of flying over gross even though that's not the intention.
I missed this the first time around. You are right that it's not my intention. First, thanks for the CARs reference snoopy. I do know them and understand them, but one might say that an employer has a perfectly valid argument in saying you can not bump cargo for fuel. If the weather if VFR and there's no CB's, why is the min. fuel not enough. I won't mention the company, but some of the pilots were fighting every day with management with this rule, while others could care less... figure, right. Anyway, like I said, technically the employer is right. But also, they're not the ones who are out flying around the shit.
---------- ADS -----------
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
SkyWolfe wrote:Wheres the topic that explains this topic not being about weight pushing? I know I saw it somewhere...
Maybe we should read all posts before making subjective posts. hmm.
OK, OK... you know as well as I do, it's easy to get off topic. Back to the task at hand.
---------- ADS -----------
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
flying overweight happens alot in the north where there is little regulation. You have to really know your airplane, its limits and yours. If you are a 250hr wonder flying a 206 overweight and C of G out of limits, then you need to go back to the office and tell your boss to find another pilot.
One could maybe have a tiny bit of empathy for a brand new commercial pilot who was intimidated into flying over gross or out of C of G limits.....but empathy is not forgiveness.
Any experienced pilot who flies an airplane knowing it is over the gross weight limits or C of G limits is a disgrace to the license said pilot holds and should have the license suspended...period.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by Cat Driver on Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
flying4dollars wrote: However, you may in fact be promoting this evolution of flying over gross even though that's not the intention.
I missed this the first time around. You are right that it's not my intention. First, thanks for the CARs reference snoopy. I do know them and understand them, but one might say that an employer has a perfectly valid argument in saying you can not bump cargo for fuel. If the weather if VFR and there's no CB's, why is the min. fuel not enough. I won't mention the company, but some of the pilots were fighting every day with management with this rule, while others could care less... figure, right. Anyway, like I said, technically the employer is right. But also, they're not the ones who are out flying around the shit.
Sorry, just to clarify, that post wasn't directed at any one person or anything. Just a general statement.
Hey not too sure why my reply was deleted, probably due to the fact that I was asking if a certain northern Vancouver Island float operator(is this stealth enough?) pushes his pilots to fly dangerously?
In my defense, if I knew that he did, then I could make most of those that replied to this thread happy and not apply. But without that knowledge I'll be forced to apply.
Kinda a catch 22 with safety if you ask me. If I apply, I promote such type of operators, but if I ask here about an operator, my post gets deleted. Seems again, potential safety is jeopardized for what.....legalities??
Understandable, I was only commenting on the safety part Do a search for a company or make a separate topic in the employment forum. Just ask for feedback... If anyone has anything concerning to say, they can PM you.
Poor Westward Bound. Your probably thinking this is nothing but three pages of 'holier then thou' types nailing your ass to the cross! While the responses are not unexpected or undeserved, I will say Legoman and North Shore were the only ones coming close to answering your question. The rest I suppose have never, ever, flown over gross...
...but of course that's a huge stinking lie.
I'm sure Cat Driver, with decades of flying under his belt, made a couple of good hauls back in the day! Just as so many others on here have as well, at one time or another. That there is the truth, the big white elephant in the tiny room of aviation. There's no doubting though that the majority of us have had a pretty close call under these circumstances. North Shore's experience in particular echoes my own 'moment of clarity'. The responses here therefore are understandable since most of us can think back to a moment where we could have easily been a smoking hole in the ground. It's sage first hand advice - Over gross is not a good idea. But of course you know that, we all do.
Unfortunately, the sad reality is few of the people in this industry have gotten where they are today by constantly saying 'no' (as some would have you believe); those that have are fortunate. The excuses veiled as 'circumstances' surrounding a decision to fly over weight are too numerous and varied to list. Often the idea of saying 'no' is overpowered by notions such as "I know my machine and it can handle another 50 lbs" or "I've got so much room to takeoff here why make a fuss? I love this job!", etc.
That's flying over gross for you; it's wrong, it's inexcusable, it's human nature.
So if and when you find yourself in an over gross situation when no amount of thinking 'Holy cow! What am I doing here?' or 'Boy all those folks were right' will help you in the here and now... Remember: Airspeed as always is paramount. Keep a cool, calculated, and gentle hand on the controls. Use caution when turning downwind. And stay 10 steps ahead of the airplane instead of your usual two. -Of course you don't need to know this because you'll never let it happen in the first place.
Any room on that cross there Westward Bound? After what I just wrote, I think I might be next!!
I'm sure Cat Driver, with decades of flying under his belt, made a couple of good hauls back in the day!
Yes I did, but fortunately I learned early in my career that deliberately exposing myself to unnecessary risk was stupid when there are laws in place to follow that gave me the " Right " to refuse to fly over gross.
Would it be better for me to sugar coat these issues for the new guys just starting out or tell them the way I believe they should fly?
---------- ADS -----------
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I posted the CARS and emphasized in red the part that many people, including operators, forget when planning payload for a given flight.
I wondered if you would respond and I'm glad you did. In my mind it was a grave mistake when legislation bowed to pressure from industry and reduced the minimum fuel requirements for Day VFR (airplane) to 30 minutes down from 45. 30 minutes of fuel, in a turbine engine forced to fly low due to low cloud cover; a radial or other carbureted engine; twin-engine aircraft or at a time of year or aircraft configuration where alternate landing sites may be few and far between, is completely asinine.
This is where safety comes into play. If you feel that 30 minutes is not enough, and you can't justify contingency fuel to your operator (such as no obvious reason for it), then one solution is to approach the owner, safety officer or other appropriate person in your company and explain why you feel 30 minutes is not enough. If it is a good company and has a mature safety culture (and I don't mean SMS), then you should be able to at least have a good discussion over possible changes to the way payloads are calculated for your company.
If that doesn't get you anywhere, or in conjunction with the above effort, you can try the following:
Many companies I have seen or worked for, use block aircraft speeds, that are often unrealistic, to calculate published payloads for given destinations. Check the numbers on the published "standard" for the company and verify they are right for your aircraft. Often you will find they are out of date (old weight and balance), or do not account for different performance in various aircraft. Be sure the weight and balance information is accurate for your aircraft and the equipment list reflects installed equipment. Engineers make mistakes too, and pilots don't always bother to check the accuracy of the aircraft paperwork.
Is your company using actual or standard weights for the passengers? In my opinion, small aircraft should be required to use actual weights for passengers as there are not enough seats to average out the differences in weights. It is not uncommon for a C-185, DCHC-2, DHC-3, Beech 18, Navajo etc. to be over gross in passenger weights alone using standard weights. The CARS do provide for passengers who obviously are not a standard weight - you must use actual. Not only that, the inappropriate use of standard weights violates the C of A for the aircraft. What to do when out in the field with no scale... R-22 captain claims he uses a bathroom scale. I've done that when based in remote northern communities and flying full payloads. If you do that from the start, your passengers will get over their initial surprise and possible razzing - later they will simply expect it from you. You can point out that nothing gets on board an airliner in Canada that isn't weighed first.
Then there is the topic of contingencies - in addition to checking the upper level winds, weather, possible bad conditions at the destination, deterioration in aircraft performance due to operating altitude, moisture in the air, external load, poorly performing engine etc. don't forget this one:
(e) any other foreseeable conditions that could delay the landing of the aircraft.
While I agree that the company can't make any money if the aircraft is tankering fuel all over the place, they certainly won't make any money if the aircraft runs out of fuel and something could have been done about it.
Sometimes the regs are not enough, and carrying the minimum, though legal, isn't safe. If none of the above options allow you to squeak in some extra fuel and justify it in the CARS, or you can't change the safety culture in your company, and you feel the extra fuel you need is essential for your comfort zone and safety of the flight, then you have a tough decision to make. In the end you may be faced with a choice to leave, operate in the way you feel safe and risk the operator making you leave, or operate in strict accordance with the CARS and feeling uncomfortable.
I guess if you get to this last paragraph after trying all of the above, then that would be the time you would want to seek out some serious discussion/mentoring with those you trust. In the end you will have to make the final decision, which is right for you.
Cheers,
snoopy
---------- ADS -----------
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
Okay I write this only to pass on a little knowledge;
Although I like to read your threads cause sometimes they are quite informative and sometimes they go on a rabbit trail which is sometimes not the intent and just gets people defensive or offensive. But I think the lad who started this thread was asking a genuine question which is usually taught by another pilot who has more experience and can somewhat mentor the fellow. So I'll write this in the general direction I think this young lad was wanting to go. Some Airmanship thoughts
a) In my experience the term CYA (not some advisory area on a map but Cover Your Ass) is highly accurate cause when crap hits the fan and transport comes a knocking; CPs or the OPS manager will eventually pass the buck on you. We all can think of some companies that can serve as a great example here.
b) Standing up for yourself is really hard when you don't have the hours and your peers with more time are doing it. Its trying to go against the grain and that seems unnatural. I to have been overgross and when you read and find out more information especially operating twin pistons; that is a scary scary place if anything goes wrong. FYI some airplanes If you are overgross and have an engine fail after takeoff just pull the good throttle back and land straight ahead otherwise that good throttle will take you to the scene of the accident
c) Know the rules; there are operators out there who know the rules and know what to say to get around them in some way. Thus have a personal set of rules for yourself; I made my own limits when I would fly single pistons in the bush. That way if the boss tried rationalizing it somehow you just through your black and white limits at him (build some safety into it as well) and say your not doing it unless its this. Also know how ops specs and duty days are to be interpreted. Canada has some off the most lax rules for 703 operators and the most scary part of your day is coming home after working the "legal" limit.
d) Complacency; when you have your own routine down to a science this can sneak up and bite you in the bum. The only really times I scared myself is when I end up flying a full day and its the last trips when your are tired and its night and your in the bush, etc. Thats when your concerned with something else and then you miss something. A captain taught me to build in double or even triple checks by certain points in the flight. I talked with a old float/wheel pilot who had the montage who would read half hour a day that way to never lose the knowledge. I swear even though you read the POH n times you always find out something new or forgotten. One captain told me on holds you should always read through that book so you know it intently. Do a walkaround even if your flying all day just once a few flights take a look the aircraft and re check fuel.
e) Maintenance- This could have its own thread but basically know the difference between what needs to be snagged ASAP (ie not let the operator push it to the next inspection) versus the tiny stuff (ie the cup holder doesn't work anymore). A good thing to do is if you have the time go make friends with the mechanics and lend a hand if they don't mind. Those mechanics will teach you stuff not in the POH that is valuable. Heck your operation will need a MCM, go through it.
f) When you get higher time you could care less if the boss would fire you when you put your foot down. I think FTU's need to emphasize that point. Just politely say thank you but this isn't for me. If you do end up having the "bush" attitude try to get it out of your system cause by the time you get to a professional company they might just fire you for having that "just get it done attitude". When you find yourself in a crappy situation
The premise here is always have an out.
1) Overgross- If you are in the situation and decide to go (inadvisable) a few things come to mind. First know how your plane handles. Like I said earlier thats scary in a twin piston. Forgiving aircraft will become more stable with more weight if its loaded properly. That said if its loaded properly is the critical point here; your aircraft will show some tell tale signs. Ie nose oleos, how it taxi's, the height of the tail off the ground, how it flies. You'll eat up alot more runway in gross or overgross situations; add that to hot summer days with shearing winds..not fun. Also you aircraft will have a different cruise attitude so your engines might not get the proper cooling so cowl flaps might be in order which means a slower TAS. Basically its not a fun situation. When it comes to landing overgross try greasing it on (this can be difficult when landing on gravel strips that are short) because that aircraft was made with the limits set out in the POH plus a safety factor. Your job is to never get close enough to find out how much safety they designed in.
2) CofG- Aircraft dependant as well, but we all know what the books say about rear CofG and lack of control responsiveness. You know your way in the rear CofG when you fly it and it becomes an oversensitive machine. If you can get some of those larger peps to trade seats with someone lighter in the front or more some cargo around (if you can responsibly). I know some guys who need to keep the power up in the flare just to keep that nose down. I heard stories of guys who knew their 206 was finally full enough when they needed power to keep the tail off the ground. Again your aircraft will have signs ie in a 206 you could try lifting the spinner and if the nose tire comes off the ground with not alot of force well your too ass heavy.
3) Weather and Fuel - Just have an out and take more fuel than you need especially if your up north. How many times has something just happened and the closest airport is 20+ mins away. Icing can be scary i recommend watching that NASA video on tailplane icing. Don't be afraid of de-icing even if your boss says it costs to much. If its blew zero and theres water on the wings by the time you taxi out and take off, chances are some of that water might move off the wing but alot will stay and freeze and then you are a test pilot.
Anyway I hope that helped, but now i'm pretty sure the boys are going to hang me to dry
Best of luck finding a job, go with reputable companies if you can. The ones that have been around for a while are usually safe cause they had enough accidents that they got their act together.
Some companies have STC's and approval for increased weights on their aircraft.So it is Legal for them to fly over the original gross weight.This approval is not easy to get and requires approval on the AOC,must be in the COM and requires some training .If your company is not approved for upgross flying you are on your own if /when anything goes wrong you will be hung out to dry by the insurance company,the company ,and TC.
Considering the Cars are covered by the criminal code of Canada you may also face criminal negligence charges if someone gets hurt.
The problems happen when somebody "says the military version of that aircraft carries 1100 lbs more" and the they start flying at military weights without doing the reasearch then complain the landing gear has to be replaced prematurely at great expense and blame the pilots for damage.
Very good first post goodeh, if it is O.K. with you I would like to comment on two issues?
Again your aircraft will have signs ie in a 206 you could try lifting the spinner and if the nose tire comes off the ground with not alot of force well your too ass heavy.
If you spend some time with the mechanics they will get just a little upset if they find you using the spinner as a fulcrum to check for C of G. The spinner backing plates will fatigue fast enough without using them as a weight lifting device.
Best of luck finding a job, go with reputable companies if you can. The ones that have been around for a while are usually safe cause they had enough accidents that they got their act together.
Rather than learn from the accident prone why not learn from those who have been around a long time and never had a accident?
---------- ADS -----------
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Thanks for the good advice snoopy... much appreciated.
Like you said, it can be especially hard when management are familiar with the rules themselves. You're standing in the office with two "management" types and maybe another pilot who are all shaking their heads in disgust looking at you like you just asked for a spare kidney. You are then branded as a "pussy" or troublemaker and will never redeem yourself, at least at that company. To be honest, this wouldn't bother me anyway. I would just look for a new job.
Anyway, you know what I mean. It can be tough, but it's important for us to stand up for ourselves and to get this message across to all the young guys/gals who are entering the industry. Maybe one day the trend will stop. Unlikely, but possible.
---------- ADS -----------
Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.
The way you see bush flying is how it was a long long time ago, although there are still a couple shady operators running free and hopefully not for long, the vast majority now understand that you make no money flying overweight or illegally.
You are more likely to be fired if you do stupid and dangerous things with an aircraft these days and please do not mention on your first interview that you are willing to learn to fly their aircraft out of the envelope!!!!!
---------- ADS -----------
Flying an aircraft and building a guitar are two things that are easy to do bad and difficult to do right
2R wrote:Some companies have STC's and approval for increased weights on their aircraft.So it is Legal for them to fly over the original gross weight.This approval is not easy to get and requires approval on the AOC,must be in the COM and requires some training .If your company is not approved for upgross flying you are on your own if /when anything goes wrong you will be hung out to dry by the insurance company,the company ,and TC.
My 206 has a STOL kit that comes with an upgross. The POH has a supplement installed that says the max gross is now 3499 instead of 3300. No additional training was provided, nor was it required, as the aircraft is still operated according to the (revised) POH. We also don't have an 'up-gross' op spec.
The only time you would possibly have to do additional training is when these STCs are first installed.
Some companies ferry aircraft at almost unbelievable weights ,but the aircraft are subject to inspection upon arrival as a precaution.But that does not mean you should fly them at those weights everyday.It is done under strict supervision by some of the best people in aviation to ensure the safety of the flight.
Some 206 operators in Alaska have STC's that let them fly up to 25 percent overgross depending on the density altitude.It is all calculated and in the Limitations section of the AFM's so the pilots do not have to guess .They have to calculate the density altitude and take-off and landing distances for each leg to carry the extra weight.The density altitude will limit what they can carry on any given day.
Professional risks approved by the STC's are usually safe, but the suck it and see what happens can end in grief as not everyone can be lucky enough to dodge all the bullets.
Well thank you Northern Guy, for this informative pm. I see from your posts that you have been recently hired, and you have 900+TT 750PIC and it is "All bush time single Fixedwing 206 and 207 heavy , short, unimproved and gravel. honest, hard working with ethic's single no baggage ready to go. full resume upon request"
Nice attitude to go along with your qualifications.
Re: Flying over gross?
From: Northern Guy
Sent: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:39 am
To: snoopy
Message
give the guy a fucken break hotshot he is asking a question dragon just cause you are god
Subject: Flying over gross?
snoopy wrote: You're kidding right???!!!
"If the industry isn't going to change and help prevent this, then maybe there needs to be some sort of coarse available to teach the young guy how to fly overweight and out of balance. Yes I know that kind of comes with experience, but I know I don't want to risk my life to learn it. I know running such a coarse legally is probably not going to happen, but maybe the experienced guys here can make up a thread that will contain some tips and thoughts on "operational flying". You know, maybe what to expect with flight controls in far aft/fore c of g. What might happen if a gust of cross wind came 50ft from threshold when you're still aft/fore of limits. Just how much extra distance is needed for being 100lbs over....etc."
And this coming from a 100 hour wonder. Ya think maybe you should just learn to do the job right in the first place and fly within the operating envelope for your aircraft? Good grief. If the manufacturer intended to take the responsibility and liability for operations over gross and outside the c of g envelope for the aircraft, don't you think they would have endorsed it in the aircraft flight manual? If you choose to operate outside the limit YOU assume liability for the flight. Do you have a god complex?
How about taking a bit of responsibility for the lives of the people on board your aircraft. I'm willing to bet that given the choice, your future passengers and their loved ones would prefer not to have you playing russian roulette with their lives as you play test pilot in an aircraft you rendered unairworthy.
---------- ADS -----------
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
Nobody NEEDS a job so desperately that they need to do it unsafely or take stupid risks in order to fatten anyone's wallet.
Don't listen to the bullshit that "the last guy did it", or "business is slow, you have to", etc, etc, etc. It's YOUR ass, YOUR licence, YOUR career, not to mention YOUR passengers lives.
You have the right to refuse unsafe work.
You need to document your situation. If your employer is trying to intimidate you to get you to fly over-gross, out of CG or with more pax than seats/seatbelts, or anything else illegal or unsafe then refuse to do it. Remember Keystone? Was the company held criminally responsible or just the PIC?
Too many operators put too much risk on inexperienced pilots and in the end, it is the kid who gets killed.
Have some integrity and say no.
Then rat the F{}<k3r out to Transport to try to stop them from forcing the next guy/gal to fly unsafe.
Safety starts with you. There is no greedy scumbag operator who is going to be safe for you. (don't misinterpret, there are lots of ethical operators who do believe in safety first)
Ask yourself how badly you need the job after you've wrecked a hull and caused personal injury.
How about a course on how to overhaul half an engine, or half an inspection to go with the over gross course. What a concept, just think how happy we could make greasy employers.
When you get your first Flying job , take it very seriously.
1) Learn the aircraft you are flying, what is the gross weight ?
sometimes the same types have different limits!
2) Is the weight and balance up to date and correct ?
3) Is the equipment list up to date and accurate, (i.e. does it
Reflect ALL the equipment installed in the aircraft ? )
4)If the aircraft are flown in different configurations ,passenger vs. cargo ? is there a separate w&b configuration to reflect this, and
if so double check it are the calculations correct ? are the seat weights correct ?,
do they use 1 weight for all seats , but are all seats the same ?
5) Learn the actual fuel burn of the AC(s) you will be flying.
6) keep fuel logs so you know how much fuel is on board ( as best you can
I realize the Cessna gauges are poor , consider using a fuel dip stick.)
lastly, pushing weights , or weather will come up, saying yes to these situations is the
easy way out, what you are getting paid for is ,... saying no at the correct ( valid )
time, but also what is very important , is how you present it. (the way you say no )
Saying no and walking away will probably get you fired.
But if you have all the facts and on paper, ( flight logs ) , and you show the CP or Ops manager how you arrived at you decision. Ask if you could fly some of the payload on another trip. Ask, if there is another solution, then you would be open to do it.
Now if they want you to carry more fuel , or payload, without it being on the manifest,
you are dealing with a very poor company culture. You could ask them to sign the flight log and weight and balance report , and see what they do then.
IF they do that and then ask you to take it , you must respectfully decline on the grounds of safety, and ask that they do that trip due to you relative low experience.
Now you may need to start looking for another job.
OK, OK... you know as well as I do, it's easy to get off topic. Back to the task at hand. 
