No more Age 60 forced Retirement at Air Canada ???

[Johnny767]

but I think having gone through a merger has made me a little cynical. Would I be wrong in saying this is a blue/red dilemma? Would I be wrong in suggesting that the blue side wants to be around a little longer with their better seniority? I was kind of looking forward to seeing them all retired in a few years but it seems they are on a mission to spoil my time a little longer.

Tony: You are certainly scraping the bottom of the barrel, trying to convince yourself the "Age 60" issue is driven by the ex-Canadi>n guys.

99.9999% of the guys I know, want the hell out of this asylum as fast as possible. They're just hoping their pension is there, for them to collect and that ACPA hasn't sold it down the road.

Check the names of the guys running the agenda.
"Numero Uno guy" is making a run at federal politics and he is about as Red as you can get!

[tonysoprano]

Johnny.
First and foremost I think you need to learn how to decipher tongue in cheek sarcasm from serious accusations. In other words, grow some skin and get a sense of humor. Whatever. Secondly, and this is by no means an official statistic, but I spend much time in our beloved 767 on those long trips and this topic comes up from time to time. Let's just say that I get the impression from the responses I get that my comments, although tongue in cheek, do hold some credibility, with some exceptions of course. And BTW, I can also confirm your 99.999% statistic as well. Judging by your ACPA comment I think I know that I have hit a soft spot. Hey, who really cares? I am confident that come 60, if I still have a job, I will have a choice. That's all I need to know.

[Letterhead]

Rockie:

I don't think anyone would be suggesting that the pro-65 crowd is greedy if they were concurrently proposing changes to the Collective Agreement that would more equitably distribute the pilot labour budget among the junior and senior pilots. None of your crowd seems to be suggesting that the Collective Agreement, as written, would result in a windfall for the old guys at the expense of the young guys, when clearly that is the case. I suspect that if you "win" the right to work until you are forced out medically or as a result of declining performance the younger boys are simply going to insist that the wage and working condition disparity between senior pilots and their junior colleagues be substantially narrowed. Frankly, it is about time. The Collective Agreement has caused more financial harm to more pilots on the seniority list than it has helped (in my opinion).

[Rockie]

Rockie:

I don't think anyone would be suggesting that the pro-65 crowd is greedy if they were concurrently proposing changes to the Collective Agreement that would more equitably distribute the pilot labour budget among the junior and senior pilots. None of your crowd seems to be suggesting that the Collective Agreement, as written, would result in a windfall for the old guys at the expense of the young guys, when clearly that is the case. I suspect that if you "win" the right to work until you are forced out medically or as a result of declining performance the younger boys are simply going to insist that the wage and working condition disparity between senior pilots and their junior colleagues be substantially narrowed. Frankly, it is about time. The Collective Agreement has caused more financial harm to more pilots on the seniority list than it has helped (in my opinion).

First of all it is a wrong assumption that everyone who wants to work beyond 60 is making top dollar. Not everyone starts at Air Canada when they're 24, and in fact the average new hire as reported by the company is 34. Yet another reason why this will happen sooner or later because the demographics are different now than they were back in the day.

Second, the people wanting to work beyond 60 are no different than you and I'm sure they would be quite happy to have a different pay scale along the lines of status pay. I know I would. But that is a BIG separate issue that cannot be dealt with in the same discussion as this, and it has it's own set of problems that you might not like very much.

Third. This issue is not being thoughtfully considered by very many people in this pilot group. It has been met with a defiant "no" from pretty much everybody who fail to see that it is going to happen regardless of their feelings. This will happen because of either the HR challenge, pension underfunding, pension change to DC, or forced by the new demographic waking up to the fact they won't get the same pension the old 35 year farts are going to get. Some prominent members of our group have been trying in vain to get the pilots to prepare for the inevitable, but instead they hurl accusations and epithets around which are so totally useless it's embarrassing to be associated with it.

The young guys need to start thinking beyond the next bid and come up with their own suggestions that are fair to everybody, because they will be in the same position (or worse) toward the end of their careers.

[Jaques Strappe]

First of all it is a wrong assumption that everyone who wants to work beyond 60 is making top dollar. Not everyone starts at Air Canada when they're 24, and in fact the average new hire as reported by the company is 34. Yet another reason why this will happen sooner or later because the demographics are different now than they were back in the day.

Second, the people wanting to work beyond 60 are no different than you and I'm sure they would be quite happy to have a different pay scale along the lines of status pay. I know I would. But that is a BIG separate issue that cannot be dealt with in the same discussion as this, and it has it's own set of problems that you might not like very much.

Third. This issue is not being thoughtfully considered by very many people in this pilot group. It has been met with a defiant "no" from pretty much everybody who fail to see that it is going to happen regardless of their feelings. This will happen because of either the HR challenge, pension underfunding, pension change to DC, or forced by the new demographic waking up to the fact they won't get the same pension the old 35 year farts are going to get. Some prominent members of our group have been trying in vain to get the pilots to prepare for the inevitable, but instead they hurl accusations and epithets around which are so totally useless it's embarrassing to be associated with it.

The young guys need to start thinking beyond the next bid and come up with their own suggestions that are fair to everybody, because they will be in the same position (or worse) toward the end of their careers.

Rockie, Excellent post! I agree that the day is coming. There are simply too many indicators and it will no doubt, help the company with their pension deficit problem, so no matter what they may say publicly, you can bet they are lobbying for it.

I just hope it becomes a voluntary thing. I for one, signed up with the intent of getting out at 60 and if at all possible, I'll go at 55. To each his own. Instead of bickering, IMHO the pilot group would be better situated if they started preparing for what is coming to help make it as equitable as possible for all involved.

[Johnny767]

There is a definite advantage, to our present "wait and see," defense. If ACPA put language in place to 65, who is to say mandatory retirement at 65 is legal?

Transport Canada Inspectors can (and have) worked past 70.

Personally, I am all for the existing plan. We continue to retire Pilots at 60, with each day. It is beyond reason to think anyone, that has retired, would be entitled get back on the Seniority list.

Wait out a ruling and all the subsequent appeals.

[Jaques Strappe]

There is a definite advantage, to our present "wait and see," defense. If ACPA put language in place to 65, who is to say mandatory retirement at 65 is legal?

Transport Canada Inspectors can (and have) worked past 70.

Personally, I am all for the existing plan. We continue to retire Pilots at 60, with each day. It is beyond reason to think anyone, that has retired, would be entitled get back on the Seniority list.

Wait out a ruling and all the subsequent appeals.

True enough, by the time all the appeals are heard and a final decision rendered, someone will want to work to 70, probably mandated by the lawyer of an ex wife. One guy said it best in flight planning when he stated that he needed to marry the ex wife of a 340 Captain so he could get half his pension back!

[Old fella]

Transport Canada Inspectors can (and have) worked past 70.


I was working around(during my time at TC) one of those "70 ish" individuals - nuff said!! Being around said individual(s) had it's advantages though. It was a good motivation not to follow their path that lead them to be in such an organization(or any anywhere) 5 years + beyond their max CCP date and old age supplement.

[Johnny767]

I know one as well, Old Fella, it was actually quite sad...god rest his soul.

One thing we can expect at AC is the standards for Medicals and Sims to be cranked up.

Get out early - get out healthy.

[Rockie]

One thing we can expect at AC is the standards for Medicals and Sims to be cranked up.

Ensuring that doesn't happen is one of the fundamentals that ALPA is insisting on. Too bad we refuse to even think about stuff like that.

[Johnny767]

It depends on which side of the debate you believe in.

If you are like me and subscribe to the belief:

1. When you joined the Airline, you KNEW the mandatory retirement was Age 60. By accepting the offer of employment, you accepted this condition.

2. Your entire career progression was predicated on the Pilots Senior to you retiring at Age 60.

So, now that you have personally enjoyed all of the above, you want the rules changed to suit your interests.

We all know that rules are meant to be changed and this is no different.

Toss in a second demographic where Pilots are joining Air Canada late in life and again (arguably for self interest) what to change the rules.

So we all sit polarized with self interest.

Since at least for this small moment in time Air Canada is on side with ACPA, opposed to flying past age 60. They have made it very clear that they will ratchet up the Sims and Medicals on our "Golden Age" members. We may ALL pay a price for that.

[Rockie]

You forgot a rule: "Adapt or die"

Times change and we have to change with it.

There's another rule: "Life isn't fair".

The conditions that existed when we hired on are irrelevant in a changing economic situation and evolving demographics. By continously citing them we are looking backwards when we should be looking forward. The retirement age will change due to any one, or combination of factors previously mentioned, and all of the assumptions you believe in will become ancient history. We as a group need to get with the program.

[Old fella]

I do know a few older Air Canada(CAI) guys and ran into one the other month in CYHZ who indicated he is not staying longer than required if he can 'effing help it" which I assumed is 60 yrs old(my age actually). This bloke is the type who goes to work, does the job comes back home(maritimes) and forgets about it until next time. B767 left seater i think. We are not close personal friends but I got the impression he rather talk about other things than AC with that sort of vague look associated with people of my age!!!!!!

[Johnny767]

Ensuring that doesn't happen is one of the fundamentals that ALPA is insisting on.

You can't compare us to US ALPA Pilots. Those poor guys had their Pensions (401K's) decimated. For many US ALPA guys, there is virtually NO money left.

Working past 60 isn't an option.

For us (Air Canada) that isn't the case, at least for the time being.

So as it stands, the "Fly Till Ya Die" crowd breaks down into the following, special interest groups:

1. 59 years old, enjoyed the BEST this industry has EVER offered. Enjoyed a Career most Pilots can only dream of and simply can't hang-up the spurs. Their only identity, is the job.

2. Has numerous ex-wives, is a financial disaster and can not afford to retire.

3. Joined Air Canada, as an OLD GUY and won't get many years of Pensionable service.

So the rest of us should "adopt or die," sorry I'm in for the fight.

[Jaques Strappe]

So as it stands, the "Fly Till Ya Die" crowd breaks down into the following, special interest groups:

1. 59 years old, enjoyed the BEST this industry has EVER offered. Enjoyed a Career most Pilots can only dream of and simply can't hang-up the spurs. Their only identity, is the job.

2. Has numerous ex-wives, is a financial disaster and can not afford to retire.

3. Joined Air Canada, as an OLD GUY and won't get many years of Pensionable service.

So the rest of us should "adopt or die," sorry I'm in for the fight.

+1 That pretty much sums them up but this is Canada where the minority rules.

[rudder]

Many of the 'greedy' group were hired as S/O's and waited 17 years for junior system Captain. In recent years, many pilots waited just months to collect that coveted fourth stripe.

Times change.

[sepia]

Many of the 'greedy' group were hired as S/O's and waited 17 years for junior system Captain. In recent years, many pilots waited just months to collect that coveted fourth stripe.

Times change.

You're certainly right, times do change. No one gets hired at 18 anymore. In fact, just about no one gets hired below 25, where as in the golden years it was rare to find someone hired beyond that age.

[yycflyguy]

Many of the 'greedy' group were hired as S/O's and waited 17 years for junior system Captain. In recent years, many pilots waited just months to collect that coveted fourth stripe.

Many did earn their Captaincy out of seniority but you are now seeing a correction with down bids where most of these very junior Captains will only be faced with a choice of Embraer FO, Airbus FO or RP. Just like when the house market adjusts so does the seniority list. If wages and conditions change on the Embraer in this next round of negotiations I wouldn't be surprised to see more guys bid the left seat EMJ forcing more junior guys out of the seat onto something else.

You're certainly right, times do change. No one gets hired at 18 anymore. In fact, just about no one gets hired below 25, where as in the golden years it was rare to find someone hired beyond that age.

I would like it if someone actually had hard evidence that the average hiring age now is 34 whereas when most of the "near 60" crowd got on at age 25. Always heard it but haven't seen any proof to back up the claim.

[sepia]

Now Hiring

Number of pilots at AC: 3500
Percentage of female pilots: 4
Number of pilot applications on file: over 5000
Number of new pilots hired since July 2005: nearly 700
Number of pilots needed each year just to cover annual retirements: about 100
Mandatory retirement age: 60
Average age of new hires: 35
Some basic job requirements: Canadian citizenship or landed immigrant status, completion of secondary school, Canadian CPL
Some prefered qualifications: university degree, ATPL, aviation diploma, military or commercial flight experience
Preferred minimum number of hours of flying experience: 2500
Average number of years required to accumulate 2500 hours: 3-5
Other elements of the hiring process: computer based skills assessment, medical, security check, reference check
Where pilots must be willing to relocate: Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, or Vancouver
Where to apply to be an Air Canada pilot: aircanada.com/en/about/career/pilots.html

Doug Morris is an Air Canada pilot with over 15000 hours of flight experience. Sources: Jennifer Johnson, Manager, Pilot Recruitment, Air Canada Flight Operations; Captain Kevin Vaillant, hiring committee member for ACPA.


The average age the top end can be easily determined if you get your hands on one of those colour coded lists. With the list I had from 2007 I believe, I had to go out of the top 500 to find the FIRST guy hired beyond age 29. I believe in the first 750 there wasn't even a dozen. Certainly there were more hired before twenty, then there were after twenty in that range.

[Rockie]

Ensuring that doesn't happen is one of the fundamentals that ALPA is insisting on.

You can't compare us to US ALPA Pilots. Those poor guys had their Pensions (401K's) decimated. For many US ALPA guys, there is virtually NO money left.

Working past 60 isn't an option.

For us (Air Canada) that isn't the case, at least for the time being.

So as it stands, the "Fly Till Ya Die" crowd breaks down into the following, special interest groups:

1. 59 years old, enjoyed the BEST this industry has EVER offered. Enjoyed a Career most Pilots can only dream of and simply can't hang-up the spurs. Their only identity, is the job.

2. Has numerous ex-wives, is a financial disaster and can not afford to retire.

3. Joined Air Canada, as an OLD GUY and won't get many years of Pensionable service.

So the rest of us should "adopt or die," sorry I'm in for the fight.

There's a 4th and 5th group that you didn't mention:

4. Pilots who don't yet realize they will never get the pension their predecessors got.

5. Everybody whether they like it or not if any of the dozens of HR challenges succeeds, which seems likely.

Even the most adamantly opposed to 60+ admit that the old system's days are numbered, so why are we putting all our effort into delaying the inevitable when we should be preparing for it?

[Jaques Strappe]

Many of the 'greedy' group were hired as S/O's and waited 17 years for junior system Captain. In recent years, many pilots waited just months to collect that coveted fourth stripe.

Times change.

Actually, I think the majority of this group has yet to retire, although approaching quickly. ( the 17 year S/O's ) The generation before them, the "golden children", were Captains at the age of 25.

[Johnny767]

There are numerous demographic groups, within the Seniority list. We are all part of our own little "special interest group."

The problem is, what do we change it to?

At the moment, that is a moving goal post. Waiting for a definitive answer is the logical choice.

If that hurts the existing group, sorry you get no sympathy.

You knew the rules in the Collective Agreement, you personally benefited from those rules.

...now "hit the road...Jack!"

For the record, I am personally in the sunset of my career and looking forward to it.

[Rockie]

There are numerous demographic groups, within the Seniority list. We are all part of our own little "special interest group."

The problem is, what do we change it to?

At the moment, that is a moving goal post. Waiting for a definitive answer is the logical choice.

If that hurts the existing group, sorry you get no sympathy.

You knew the rules in the Collective Agreement, you personally benefited from those rules.

...now "hit the road...Jack!"

For the record, I am personally in the sunset of my career and looking forward to it.

Hit the road Jack is an all too common sentiment, and if you wait for a definitive answer you may have no say in what that answer is...it will be dictated to you. The people who stand to lose the most by waiting (you) are the very people who advocate waiting (again you). And pleeeaaaase stop bringing up the contract. While you point your finger at the contract going "but but but..." events are going to steam roll right over top of you because this has nothing to do with the contract.

[sepia]

I promise I won't bring up the contract, if you can promise you'll quit with the whole "the sky is falling" and everything is gonna change bit.

[Al707]

Rockie sounds a lot like Raymond!

You want to stay because you are selfish.
I want you to leave because I'm selfish.

One of us is happy to follow the confines of the contract!
One of us is not and is therefore challenging it as a HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE or at the very least supporting it!!

If the pension was to just disappear overnight like for some in the U S of A then even I would support working beyond 60 as a basic HUMAN RIGHT to support oneself...

Change one aspect of the gig and look for 2000+ to look at changing all (or many) aspects of OUR gig.

JMHO. Not that it counts for much...