Hiring Freeze at WJA?

[WJ700]

What's funny about this is that I would have much preferred the 'lowest paid 737 job in North America' in 1996... instead of the 2003 position.

I'd have a way bigger boat.

I'd probably have been better of taking the CSA job in 1996 too. I know a few of them with pretty big ass houses that are paid for.

[truedude]

ust calling as I see 'em.

Someone comes on here spouting lies and they get called on it. They keep up with the crap then I have to question their motivation for spouting such crap.

Still waiting for more info about the 10,000 fine.

How about a difference in a opinion, a different point of view. Oh that's right you work for Westjet, your not allowed to have an opinion that the company has not already had for you. You say I am "spouting lies" yet have not provided any evidence. The reason i stopped talking about the fine, is your retort was simply "bullshit". That's hardly proof of any sort. You asked for more information, regarding the amount, I gave it to you, and you then again simply replied with bullshit and attacked my grammar. Since its obvious there is nothing I can say to you to change your mind, why would I continue to provide you information. My original point was made because people where blaming Air Canada for Westjet having a tough quarter, I simply thought that was hypocritical given Westjets past. But since you can't seem to accept that Westjets success might be due to more than happy thoughts and pixie dust I see no point in continuing. So keep reading Flowers for Algernon and I am sure things will always have a sunny glow for you.

[Huge Hammer]

ust calling as I see 'em.

Someone comes on here spouting lies and they get called on it. They keep up with the crap then I have to question their motivation for spouting such crap.

Still waiting for more info about the 10,000 fine.

How about a difference in a opinion, a different point of view. Oh that's right you work for Westjet, your not allowed to have an opinion that the company has not already had for you. You say I am "spouting lies" yet have not provided any evidence. The reason i stopped talking about the fine, is your retort was simply "bullshit". That's hardly proof of any sort. You asked for more information, regarding the amount, I gave it to you, and you then again simply replied with bullshit and attacked my grammar. Since its obvious there is nothing I can say to you to change your mind, why would I continue to provide you information. My original point was made because people where blaming Air Canada for Westjet having a tough quarter, I simply thought that was hypocritical given Westjets past. But since you can't seem to accept that Westjets success might be due to more than happy thoughts and pixie dust I see no point in continuing. So keep reading Flowers for Algernon and I am sure things will always have a sunny glow for you.

Can't prove a negative dumbass. I was not spouting lies about fines, only bringing in pizza for the cameras and accusing the company of having bad morals.

Flowers for Algernon is a good book although I am sure you missed it's point completely. Things do have a sunny glow for me because I am not clouded with the need to be an internet expert and yap about a bunch of stuff that I clearly know nothing about.

[Spit-IX]

Why is it that many of the people who represent Westjet on this forum are so apt to name calling and slander toward others?

[tailgunner]

Spit IX, they may be 'fundamentalist' owners...They have bought in to Durf man's rhetoric, and they worship at the Church of Clive. They could be called the Jerry Falwell's of canadian aviation, but that may be a huge insult to the good pastor.
If you don't have the kool-aid, you ain't got nothing brother....!
"hey gang....my name is Durf....I just took a million plus, but now I am gonna cut , cut , cut!! Enjoy."

[ivanhoe]

Spit IX, they may be 'fundamentalist' owners...They have bought in to Durf man's rhetoric, and they worship at the Church of Clive. They could be called the Jerry Falwell's of canadian aviation, but that may be a huge insult to the good pastor.
If you don't have the kool-aid, you ain't got nothing brother....!
"hey gang....my name is Durf....I just took a million plus, but now I am gonna cut , cut , cut!! Enjoy."

You may be on to something there...

History has proven many times that groups , whether they are military or corporate , are far more successful when they have leaders that are respected and trusted. You can make all the koolaid jokes in the world but the fact is that WestJet has been led by people that the troops have trusted. The results speak for themselves. Can you say the same about AC? Seems to me that those results also speak for themselves. Remember Claude Taylor? Hollis Harris? Do you remember the troops mood back then? Do you remember the corporations financial results back then?

From time to time the troops trust at WestJet is tested. The recent pilot contract , version 1 , is a good example. Personally I have sat on the fence with regard to SD. Watching him and his team turn around the negativity was impressive and I have to give him credit for a job well done. These guys could have really F***** this thing up but their reaction was to lead and fix it. They did a great job.

So go ahead and keep up with the koolaid jokes if it makes you feel better but those of us who are able to think it through realise that it's a good thing.

[Snagmaster E]

ust calling as I see 'em.

Someone comes on here spouting lies and they get called on it. They keep up with the crap then I have to question their motivation for spouting such crap.

Still waiting for more info about the 10,000 fine.

How about a difference in a opinion, a different point of view. Oh that's right you work for Westjet, your not allowed to have an opinion that the company has not already had for you. You say I am "spouting lies" yet have not provided any evidence. The reason i stopped talking about the fine, is your retort was simply "bullshit". That's hardly proof of any sort. You asked for more information, regarding the amount, I gave it to you, and you then again simply replied with bullshit and attacked my grammar. Since its obvious there is nothing I can say to you to change your mind, why would I continue to provide you information. My original point was made because people where blaming Air Canada for Westjet having a tough quarter, I simply thought that was hypocritical given Westjets past. But since you can't seem to accept that Westjets success might be due to more than happy thoughts and pixie dust I see no point in continuing. So keep reading Flowers for Algernon and I am sure things will always have a sunny glow for you.

Truedude, can you edit your post so it doesn't look like I said the above? I didn't say that. I would PM you, but you're offline, and I don't want people thinking I said that.

[jjj]

This string is officially boring.

No one accepts or has an open mind to anyone else point of view except their own.

Any actual discussion has sublimated away.

The people who hate WS will continue to hate WS and that is their perogative.

Defending my company and clearing up misinformation doesn't change anyone's point of view.

I need someone to pick on...... where's Strega?



Bringing down the industry
JJJ

[roger.roger]

so how about that hiring freeze. that was what we're talking about right?

[jjj]

Most of the freeze applies to other departments than flight ops where they will fill vacancies internally rather than externally except under certain cases that must be approved by tthe CEO.

No layoffs.

Growth will be slow but we will be adding on pilots as new aircraft trickle in.

Any actual hiring numbers that DaveP may have put out would be obsolete if the info is even a week old as the situation changes quite dynamically - Boeing changing delivery dates - marketing changing their mind - swine flu mutations during a slow news week - etc.....


Bringing down the industry.
JJJ

[balfour]

[tonysoprano]

I'd have a way bigger boat.

Too late. Those days are long gone. But hey, happy is the word bro. remember, HAPPY!!! At any cost.

[KAG]

For the hiring freeze, it's true for the rest of the company, but the pilot pool is an unknown. We still have planes coming this fall (could change I suppose), how they will be crewed is up in the air. I'm going to guess we'll be hiring, as it seems (according to the papers anyway) we've seen to bottom of the economic crash. The next few months will tell a lot in terms of advanced bookings.

As for the mud slinging, say what you want about any company. We all have our strengths/weaknesses. Sure, we drink the Kool-aid, but at the end of the day we make money. So I guess were charging enough eh? I also guess SD is doing his job, wouldn’t ya say?!
This quarter is going to be a test for all companies.
Stand by for new ATIS.

[gonnabeapilot]

For the hiring freeze, it's true for the rest of the company, but the pilot pool is an unknown. We still have planes coming this fall (could change I suppose), how they will be crewed is up in the air. I'm going to guess we'll be hiring, as it seems (according to the papers anyway) we've seen to bottom of the economic crash. The next few months will tell a lot in terms of advanced bookings.

As for the mud slinging, say what you want about any company. We all have our strengths/weaknesses. Sure, we drink the Kool-aid, but at the end of the day we make money. So I guess were charging enough eh? I also guess SD is doing his job, wouldn’t ya say?!
This quarter is going to be a test for all companies.
Stand by for new ATIS.

I'm glad to hear that pilot hiring will continue through-out the year. A hiring freeze at any airline just hurts us all in the long run.

As for the mud slinging I think KAG has hit the nail on the head by saying "This quarter is going to be a test for all companies". That's all I wanted to hear. I respect what the employees of Westjet have accomplished.... success of any kind in Canadian aviation is something that should be celebrated. What drives me completely bonkers is when Westjetters somehow believe that they are above the rest of us. From what I've seen of this thread, I'm not alone. So Westjet has a hiring freeze in place and is looking at cutting costs.... so what? Every airline in Canada is in the exact same position.... economic times are tough right now. But for whatever reason, a large number of Westjetters (and no, it's not everyone) can't seem to acknowledge that at the end of the day, Westjet is just an airline. It will be impacted by factors beyond its control and at some point the constant expansion and profits will end. That's the time where Westjet will be truly tested and we shall see just how good the dream team management there really is. There isn't always a boogie man to be blamed for Westjet's woes.... the people in charge at Westjet are not perfect and not every decision they make is the right one.... and yes, Westjet is willing to get down and dirty when it comes to competition.... The thing is.... EVERY AIRLINE is like this! Westjet is no better than Air Canada or Transat or anyone when it comes to that stuff.... The difference is that the employees at all the other airlines seems to understand that. So why is it that Westjetters like to pretend that their airline is without fault? Why do I always feel the implication that the Westjet way is the only right way and that the rest of us are a bunch of idiots working for poorly run versions of corporate evil? I don't go on the attack because I have some hatred for Westjet.... I just want to hear some form of open-mindedness from the real kool-aid drinkers.... and I don't think I'm alone. If more Westjetters shared the mentality of KAG I think this thread would be about 2 pages shorter!

[stickontheice]

Spit IX, they may be 'fundamentalist' owners...They have bought in to Durf man's rhetoric, and they worship at the Church of Clive. They could be called the Jerry Falwell's of canadian aviation, but that may be a huge insult to the good pastor.
If you don't have the kool-aid, you ain't got nothing brother....!
"hey gang....my name is Durf....I just took a million plus, but now I am gonna cut , cut , cut!! Enjoy."

That makes me laugh. After the problems with Version 1.0 the man takes time out of his busy schedule and for nearly a month sat down and talked with pilots. Our CEO was having beers with us trying to figure out how to make Version 2.0 a success while AC's is scrambling to make a pension payment.

When's the last time Milton, Brewer, or your latest up to bat, Rovinescu, sat down had a heart to heart with the boys and girls? He probably doesn't even know what beer is. Probably only drinks Dom Pérignon. I suppose you could sell the gallery carts and lease them back so you can afford to have a drink with him. I'll take Durf any day over what else is out there. He's not hiding in England with his millions during the tough times. He's working his butt off and is worth every penny.

[Jastapilot]

I'd have a way bigger boat.

Too late. Those days are long gone. But hey, happy is the word bro. remember, HAPPY!!! At any cost.

Next time you bitch about WJ'ers and the cheap shots, I'll just post this little ditty again. Real nice, Tony, real nice.

[mattedfred]

WJ is to AC as Toyota is to GM

there are few similarities and many differences

[mikeecho]

Spit IX, they may be 'fundamentalist' owners...They have bought in to Durf man's rhetoric, and they worship at the Church of Clive. They could be called the Jerry Falwell's of canadian aviation, but that may be a huge insult to the good pastor.
If you don't have the kool-aid, you ain't got nothing brother....!
"hey gang....my name is Durf....I just took a million plus, but now I am gonna cut , cut , cut!! Enjoy."

A better explanation could be that many of us who post have worked for the red team in the past and lived through all the garbage that is every day life there.

When it was time to make a positive change, a teal airline gave us more than just a job and allowed us to actually like doing what we do without having to steer through all the garbage like we used to.

For many of us, that change in working atmosphere allowed us to spend more time with families, enjoy some financial stability and actually like coming to work again.

I compare that to my days at CP/AC which involved a 10% pay cut, living in a different city than my family (2 times), working 6-7 days a week (16 hours a day), having the company bail out on promised agreements (eg. suggesting I file an illegal tax return instead of paying me for my move), deal daily with harassment issues and work through a number of managers who didn't care one bit about anything besides surviving to retirement and/or trying to be on the list for the next set of buy-outs.

So, when people make false and/or uninformed statements about our company usually based on rumour (we know how those stories go because we used to hear the same stuff when we were at AC), many WJ employees feel the need to correct a few things out of respect for a company that has given us so much.

[Brick Head]

Wasn't this thread about hiring?

Maybe a little reality check as to why we are where we are. Both sides I mean.

AC. under the helm of Mr. Brewer, since the start of the slow down, deliberately under supplied seats in an effort to drive yield up. This is a common yield management technique although usually only works short term. We know why Brewer was doing it. Because he needed higher yields due to AC's higher costs. The downside to this is that by under supplying the market with seats you drive people to the competition. You not only drive people to the competition, but at an inflated yield. This type of marketing, as it always does if depended on too long, was inadequate. It is this very marketing that has allowed low cost carriers so much success against legacy carriers during lean economic times in the past.


So sometime in Feb the AC BOD decides AC's business model has failed. Yeah I know you guys have been saying it since we left CCAA. Fuel hedging didn't help.

So Brewer was replaced by a financial restructuring specialist CR. Obviously a company can not keep throwing high yield tickets at the competition forever. Particularly an aggressive competitor that is trying to expand. Eventually you will have no market left. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand that what is really needed is lower costs.


So what does the new CEO do? He ends AC's deliberate attempt at creating higher yield. He supplies the seats that the market is demanding and lets the market decide the price they will pay. Notice AC's load factor barely moved. (not including Jazz. That is a product of too many aircraft operating under the CPA at the moment. That one needs a thread onto itself.)

So poof over night we have recession reality yields kick in for everyone.

It is why there has been this sudden change at WJ. WJ suddenly finds itself in a very different yield market.

It is why AC needs restructuring fast. I don't just mean pensions either. Costs will be reduced voluntarily out of CCAA or not so voluntarily in CCAA.

Or liquidation? Then you can charge what you want.

I think Durf is concerned of the unknown. When your competition is heading toward obvious restructuring, you have no real idea of what cost structure you will be competing with out the other side. You prudently get careful.

Of course his aggressive expansion accelerated the situation. I always wonder? And AC did the same to CAIL. Does anyone else think airlines make the mistake of trying to kill off their weaker competition? Would it not be more lucrative, long term, to make sure your wounded competition was always on the verge of life support but not so far gone they were forced into massive restructuring? But no we all have to go and try to pull the plug.

Capitalism.

[securitas]

Can you please explain how 210k is possible for a "FO Overtime Whore"

You can only fly 1200 hrs per year, 960 of would be straight time. Even with ESP, profit sharing, working all vacation, and training outside of block, that still implies a base hourly wage of well over $100/hr.

I'm curious to see the math.

[WJ700]

I think an appropriate overtime rate for an FO is actually around $130 per hour. With no reserve the Leadership Team at WestJet have stated that the 'company is not affraid to compensate for overtime appropriately'. I've seen a few pig paydays and its hard to turn it down when they call.

[ivanhoe]

quote

"Of course his aggressive expansion accelerated the situation. I always wonder? And AC did the same to CAIL. Does anyone else think airlines make the mistake of trying to kill off their weaker competition? Would it not be more lucrative, long term, to make sure your wounded competition was always on the verge of life support but not so far gone they were forced into massive restructuring? But no we all have to go and try to pull the plug."



Absolutley agree , except the pulling the plug comment. WestJet was revelling in a "rational pricing environment" and printing cash. The problem was that AC was still struggling to post profit even with 85% load factors and rational (from WestJet's perspective) pricing. The death spiral began and here we are. AC is trying to fill its planes by lowering prices and so is WestJet. With its horde of 836M cash , 30-40% lower costs and low debt ratio , WestJet can ride out the storm. It hurts , but we will survive. AC probably won't in its current form.

Believe me , the head shed at WJ did not want to go down this road. They could have forced AC into this situation sooner if they had wanted to but were very content just the way things were. Unfortunately , oil prices went ballistic , the US banking system almost collapsed and the world's economy went into the toilet. It put pressure on all of us , especially AC with its pension obligations.

In my view , AC is trying to raise as much cash as it can to prepare for a possible CCAA v2. This is what financially pressured airlines always do. It rarely works out well and there is collateral damage to healthier airlines as they rush to match the "cash generating" pricing in the time honoured tradition of trying to maintain market share.

Nobody wins. Some just lose less...

[Brick Head]

Absolutley agree , except the pulling the plug comment. WestJet was revelling in a "rational pricing environment" and printing cash.

I agree with you as well on everything but this. The pricing environment was not rational based on the economy. Yes Westjet was reveling, but not on real economics. Rather on AC's necessity to produce higher yield. AC gave up. Now we all live with it.

Put another way. What would have the yields been like for the last 9 months if WJ were competing with a company like itself?

Look at it this way. Recessions last 18-20 months. In Canada we all avoided the reality of low yields for 9months of it.

No blame game here. AC has no one to blame but AC. The last restructuring was not based on long term viability.

You comment about a CCAA part 2 as if it is the intent. ACE gets wiped out if they file. That is not the intent. It may yet happen, but it would indicate failure on the part of CR. The intent is lowering cost to match reality. Then ACE sells the place and makes money.

AC is not stock piling cash for a CCAA. They are burning it. The change in yields just accelerated the process.

The change in AC behavior at attempting to keep yields artificially high is really a reflection of giving up. Deciding restructuring was the only choice.

[invertedattitude]

I'd just like to step in here and say:


If you pilots actually worked together as a professional group instead of pissing all over each other because you work at different airlines you might actually change the industry.

This thread reads like a high school football game, and high school is being generous.

[KAG]

Inverted,
Just how are we going to work together to change the industry? We're employees of very different companies. The tail doesn't wag the dog. And in this case it a cat’s tail trying to wag a dog’s body. I’m not knocking ya for the Idea (it’s a good one); I just can’t see it ever happening.
Now if AC wanted to help themselves, the first group they should try to work together with is the Jazz folks.
IMHO anyway.